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1st test-blade tracking problem

Started by ray299, June 19, 2016, 09:32:10 PM

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ray299

I know there is probably plenty of tracking posts on here but I thought if I could show a video of exactly what I have, I could narrow down the solutions. If anyone has a post relevant, please leave the link and I'll read it. Otherwise, please view this 6 minute video of a quick tour of my mill with tracking problems in mind when taken/edited. Any help would be appreciated!
https://youtu.be/eGyo6YBJhcU

ray299

I should add that adjusting the tracking wasn't difficult until I put tension on the blade... I had it running pretty good at the beginning... until I found out how much tension the blade should be under... then after three attempts to turn it, it popped off... got worried so I figured I'd turn to the experts here ;o)
Should I just keep trying to adjust the tracking? Or does anyone see a major problem?

ray299

BTW IT FREEZES AT 2:54 UNTIL 3:26 FOR SOME REASON... SKIP AHEAD FOR THOSE 30 SECONDS

Kbeitz

I was told the mills with car tires arn't run with high tension like other mills.
Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

POSTON WIDEHEAD

I don't know that much about your tracking problem but I am impressed with your mill.  :)
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

ray299

Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on June 19, 2016, 09:50:57 PM
I don't know that much about your tracking problem but I am impressed with your mill.  :)
thank you... It was a metric ton of work. lol

Joe Hillmann

Does the tire on the left side(viewed from operators position) have any tread on it?

When you get the blade on the tires do the tires bulge around the blade?  If so you have too much tension.

Wipe all the grease/oil off the tires and blade.  Then wipe it off again, and again.  Then try tracking it.  Too much oil/diesel/grease/soap between the blade and wheels can cause the blade to pop off.

ray299

Quote from: Kbeitz on June 19, 2016, 09:49:08 PM
I was told the mills with car tires arn't run with high tension like other mills.
Oh? interesting... I read posts with people with car tires just deflating and inflating the tires to get the blade on and off... and that definitely doesn't put the tension that I'm putting on it... maybe you are right...

Joe Hillmann

Get the tires to the same pressure, get a good pressure gauge, it makes a huge difference.  I run mine at around 35 psi.

Are you using car donuts for tires?  Do they have any crown?  Narrow trailer tires work best because they have quite a bit of crown compared to car tires.

Joe Hillmann

Quote from: ray299 on June 19, 2016, 10:02:03 PM
Quote from: Kbeitz on June 19, 2016, 09:49:08 PM
I was told the mills with car tires arn't run with high tension like other mills.
Oh? interesting... I read posts with people with car tires just deflating and inflating the tires to get the blade on and off... and that definitely doesn't put the tension that I'm putting on it... maybe you are right...

Deflating the tire doesn't make the blade loose enough to take off and put on.  You still have to fight and struggle to get them on but letting the air out makes it a bit easier. 

For proper tension I would suggest airing up your tires to what ever pressure you plan to run them at, then tighten up your tension until the tire starts to deform around the blade than release the tension, until the tire no longer is deformed.  That and get ALL the oil/ grease off the blade and wheels.

ray299

Quote from: Joe Hillmann on June 19, 2016, 10:00:31 PM
Does the tire on the left side(viewed from operators position) have any tread on it?

When you get the blade on the tires do the tires bulge around the blade?  If so you have too much tension.

Wipe all the grease/oil off the tires and blade.  Then wipe it off again, and again.  Then try tracking it.  Too much oil/diesel/grease/soap between the blade and wheels can cause the blade to pop off.
It does have tread, just not on the outer edge guessing from an alignment problem on the car it came off... no bulge around the blade... setting tension with a caliper at .005 stretch at 6 inches. I'll wipe it down next time I try tracking. Thanks

Joe Hillmann

If you tension ed it with a caliper I would guess you have way too much tension on it for the wheels.

Den-Den

Quote from: Joe Hillmann on June 19, 2016, 10:13:40 PM
If you tension ed it with a caliper I would guess you have way too much tension on it for the wheels.
Tires may not be the limiting factor, flex in the frame will cause the same problems.
I suggest that you sneak up on the problem.  You said it tracked OK with no/low tension, try increasing the tension in small increments and adjusting the tracking each time.  When you get to the point that you can no longer get it adjusted, you have exceeded the maximum tension for your machine.  This is likely less than the maximum tension the blades are designed for.

Tire pressure will affect tracking, keep it consistent to reduce headaches.  Use your own judgement and the max pressure rating of your tires to choose the pressure.  The number stamped on them is intended to be measured while cold and then the tire ran under load at some speed (likely higher speed than it is running on your saw). 
You may think that you can or may think you can't; either way, you are right.

Joe Hillmann

You also don't have front guards on your mill yet.  The pressure in the tires can become quite a bit higher when the sun has been shining directly on them vs. being in the shade and that can cause problems with the tracking.

5quarter

If they are used tires and they have not been trued up, they will not track properly.  member fishfarmer has a good account of how he did it using a brace and angle grinder I think...
What is this leisure time of which you speak?
Blue Harbor Refinishing

Rougespear

Personally, I would get after the flex in the frame.  I have also read, as others have mentioned, that getting full tension on car tires is difficult.  I am surprised how tight these blades can go.  See if you can fab something so that you will be able to change the vertical tilt of the tires... that is important.  They need to be in the same plane as each other, and if you not you could be chasing the white rabbit in circles.

Rigidity in this mills is important.  Keep after it... you'll figure it out!  There are numerous mills running car tires that work well, so it is a design issue, and the best part about that is you built the mill, so you can "edit" it too.  Don't be afraid to cut and weld, etc... to get things right.  You will be pleased when you do.

Nice looking mill!
Custom built Cook's-style hydraulic bandmill.

ray299

Quote from: Joe Hillmann on June 19, 2016, 10:03:29 PM
Get the tires to the same pressure, get a good pressure gauge, it makes a huge difference.  I run mine at around 35 psi.

Are you using car donuts for tires?  Do they have any crown?  Narrow trailer tires work best because they have quite a bit of crown compared to car tires.
They are plain car tires with little to no crown. Should I be in the market for donut tires with a crown? Is that a necessity?

ray299

Quote from: 5quarter on June 19, 2016, 11:30:05 PM
If they are used tires and they have not been trued up, they will not track properly.  member fishfarmer has a good account of how he did it using a brace and angle grinder I think...
They are used... what do you mean by "trued up"? Are you referring to them being balanced? I had them balanced before I put them on the mill...

Peter Drouin

I don't know how to build a mill, but, all the ones I looked at the blade is deflected down or straight across. Your's are up.
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

ray299

Quote from: Peter Drouin on June 20, 2016, 06:04:26 AM
I don't know how to build a mill, but, all the ones I looked at the blade is deflected down or straight across. Your's are up.
the blade is not on the tires in the video. I shot the footage right after it popped off again.

Den-Den


They are plain car tires with little to no crown. Should I be in the market for donut tires with a crown? Is that a necessity?
[/quote]
A little crown is all that is needed, no crown is a problem.
You may think that you can or may think you can't; either way, you are right.

bkaimwood

Camber and toe problems are amplified with blade tension...the blade may track ok undertensioned, but if the adjustments are a hair off, the increase in tension will quickly reveal this. Tire problems in general will do the same...
bk

5quarter

Hi Ray...I mean that the tire needs to be perfectly round in relation to the axle/shaft. New tires are close to round but used tires will always have some uneven wear that will completely screw up your tracking. some of the guys here get around that by using the drive axle like a lathe and turn the tire perfectly round. I've never used tires as band wheels myself, so all I really know about them is what I've read regarding others who have built mills similar to yours. Keep up the great work!  :)
What is this leisure time of which you speak?
Blue Harbor Refinishing

Ljohnsaw

Quote from: ray299 on June 20, 2016, 06:23:27 AM
Quote from: Peter Drouin on June 20, 2016, 06:04:26 AM
I don't know how to build a mill, but, all the ones I looked at the blade is deflected down or straight across. Your's are up.
the blade is not on the tires in the video. I shot the footage right after it popped off again.
I noticed that as well.  I went back and looked, there sure seems to be a blade on the mill...

The first thing I noticed was how flat across the tires look - no noticeable crown to them.  I use doughnut tires that have a pretty pronounced crown.  They work great for me.  I do not have top to bottom adjustments, just toe in/out and tension.  My tires are at the rated 60 psi which makes them very hard.  The teeth of my blade are not touching the tire so should not take the set out of one side.  I have yet to set up a caliper to measure the exact tension.  I just tighten to the point that flutter of the blade is reduced and I get great cutting.

As far as tire speed, I have not recalculated with my gas engine.  With my electric motor, I figured that they were traveling at 60 to 65 mph.
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

ray299

SO what does everyone think about the tire types? DO I need donut tires that crown? I have regular car tires and they don't look like they have a crown even after being inflated to max... I mean they could have a crown but its so small its not noticeable. DO I need a greater more obvious crown?
Thanks!

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