clear cutting

[Peck]

I have a logger lined up to cut my property this summer. He will be taking approx 250 16 to 24 inch low grade  pin oaks. He will also be clear cutting 10  fairly dence acres, mostly oak and soft maple. He plans to chip the wood, he will also chip the tops of the pin oaks. He tells me that he will pay me nothing for the wood he plans to chip, not enough money to warant that.Is that true? Just don't want to get taken advantage of.  Thank You

[Jeff]

Have you signed a contract yet?

[Ron Scott]

Where are you located?  Check out the chip market in your area to see what the market value for chips is. The landowner usually gets paid for their chipwood by the ton weight scale or it's figured into the stumpage lump sum price. It's not a lot of $$, but the landowner is compensated if chips are to be harvested as a wood or fuel product.

I assume that you are talking about the low quality trees and topwood  for chipping and that the larger trees would be valued for sawlogs or pulpwood.

You may want to seek out advice from your local Conservation District Forester or a professional Consulting Forester.

[Corley5]

Sounds to me like he's trying to pull a fast one.  We had a chip harvest done on some aspen a few years ago and Grandma made out GOOD.  If it's worth it for him to chip and haul away you should be getting something out of it too.

[Peck]

I am located in Saginaw County, MI. I have not signed the contract yet. I think he said he sells the chips to Consumers Power Company, possibly Dow Chemical for fuel. Does $2 per ton sound right? That's  what he told me he gets paid, doesn't sound like much. How much weight is there in an average acre? Does anyone know who I could contact in my area to see what it's worth? Thanks again.  You guys are a big help.

[David_c]

sounds low to me but there are other guys here that know more than i ever will.

[Frickman]

I don't mess with chips, but that $2.00/ton sounds mighty low. Maybe $20.00, but not two. I think around here the mills are putting 20 to 22 ton of chips on a trailer. At $2.00/ton that's $40.00 to $44.00/load, not even worth hauling. I'd be checking around before I signed any papers.

[Ron Scott]

Call Consumers or Dow to see what they are paying for wood chips delivered. We figure 2.3 tons of chips /standard cord. Do you have any idea about how many cords/acre you have on the clearcut area including topwood?

$2.00 - $2.50/ton has been the the prices I've heard lately, but it also depends some on the "quality" of the chips and where they are marketed. You may want to have your timber harvest placed out on bids for your best price. You should receive at least $.75/ton for the chips and more for the individual wood products of sawlogs, pulpwood,and firewood unless the quality is so poor that chips is the only possible product.

Contact your Conservation District Forester for assistance:

Saginaw CD
178N Graham Road
Saginaw, MI 48609
989-781-4077

[Frickman]

Ron, if the price is $2.00 or $2.50/ton, how is a logger making any money on it?

[Stan]

I can understand that not every tree is worth cuttin' or even savin' but what's the point of cuttin' every one in a stand?

[Jeff]

Clear cuts for aspen.

In Michigan we clear-cut aspen because it is necessary in order for regeneration. If you simply try to thin or selectively harvest mature trees it will not grow back.  You must open the area to the sun where the roots of the pre existing trees send up 10s of thousands of shoots per acre. In the very first year, that new aspen forest will have trees 3 to 5 feet tall. These young aspen are also a favorite browse food and will be naturally thinned in the first year or two, still being so thick that you can't walk through. Within 10 years you won't tell there was ever a logging disturbance and within 30 to 40 years the cycle can start anew. Aspen trees have a very short live span compared to say oak or maple or pines. So in this instance its a wise thing to clear cut and make use of all this fiber or timber.

[Frickman]

Stan, I don't know the reason for Peck's clearcut, but clearcutting is a valuable management tool. Some species, like poplar, cherry, and red oak, need full sunlight to regenerate. Red oak can get started in the shade but needs full sunlight to grow. In my area, if you never clear cut and had no natural disturbances, like a tornado, the species composition would eventually change to shade tolerant species, like hard maple and beech. Most of the foresters here can explain it better than me. Clear cutting gets alot of bad press, but in a way you are mimicking what nature does anyway.

[Ron Scott]

Clear cutting or even aged management should be the "optimum" method to meet one's land management objectives and to regenerate certain species.

Logger's don't make much on chips unless they have a large volume contract and get the wood at very low cost. A  full chip van will hold 40 - 45 tons of chips depending upon species. Not many $$$ there.

[Jeff]

I checked out our LOWEST chip price today. Thats delivered to the CMU co-gen plant as fuel. Still 18 bucks a ton. I can't beleive that corning which is only 40 miles away from that is only 2. We get 24 at packaging for mill chips.

[Ron Scott]

Jeff,

What are you paying the landowner for the "woods run" chips per ton and is that all wood chipped and not just the top wood and low quality wood?

[Jeff]

We dont buy chips ron, but I was told that cmu does not care if its woods run or mill chips. 18 bucks.  I know thats no what the land owner gets for stumpage, but jeez, they gotta get something.

A good contact in Saginaw county would be Doug Lee.

www.leeforestry.com

[Ron Scott]

Yes, Doug use to work for Dow Chemical and Pine Tech. and would be familiar with the Saginaw area. A good contact.

[Ron Wenrich]

20 yrs ago, I helped Viking Energy site a plant in PA.  I helped them locate chips and sawdust.  There is no way we could buy sawdust for less than $5/ton, at the mill.  Woods run chips at that time were about $18/ton and clean chips were around $20.

Run the clock ahead 20 years and chips are now up to about $25/ton.  Viking was buying a chip/sawdust mixture for $15/ton.  I'm not sure if that has changed.  We had Charmin close their plant, so chips became plentiful.

At the height of the firewood boom, we were getting $10/cd for firewood.  It has since dropped back to $5/cd as labor costs have increased and demand has diminished.

Landowners routinely get $2-3/ton on the stump.  Usually, topwood isn't included.  Rule-of-thumb is 1 cd topwood/Mbf of sawtimber.  That would yield a few ton cushion in a sawtimber cut..

Most guys are grossing out at 40 ton max for woods chips.  You have to take the rig weight off to get your net weight.

[Peck]

The clear cutting that I plan do do is strictly for habitat improvement, which is my primary goal. I did call Mr. Lee.  He  gave me a list of people who may be interested in the job. He also said there should be something in it for me and strongly suggested that I shop around. Once again you guys have been a great help. I will keep you posted.  Thanks.

[SwampDonkey]

Wood chips here were about $8-$10/tonne stumpage to the owner. The mill price is $44/tonne for round wood. But, I think it was more for chips since the pulp mill didn't have to chip it,so they paid for the chippin. (guessing 50/tonne if they still except it). This Kraft mill is very strict on quality and especially when it comes to foreign material in the chips, such as plastics. They find any plastic in the load, then your outta business.  (2.5 tonne/cord hwd, 2.27 tonne/cord poplar) Chipping was the form that most hardwood and poplar chips arrived at the Kraft mill from their Licensed and free-hold land-base, up untill 1993 or so. The cost of chipping and forwarding equipment killed that operation. She all comes in round at the Kraft mill now (I think).They used to chip whole tree, tops and all. It was felled and loaded by a Koreng Feller Forwarder. Then, it was fed through a portable flail debarker, then chipped into the van. That system was the beginning of the hardwood slaughter because everything was removed from the site, right down to wrist sized. What wasn't cut was mulled over with those giant sized forwarders. Now all hog fuel to power generating plants comes from the bark or ground up slabwood from sawmills and pulpmills, not exceptable for pulp. Most pulp mills use their own hogfuel from the debarking process to generate their own power to save on the hydro bill. The Kraft mill here uses as much juice as a medium large town (60,000 population).

cheers

[Scott]

 Dad's an electrician at the Irving Pulp and Paper mill here. For hog feul a mixture of bark and sawdust is burned. This pulp mill will not accept logs, chips only. All slab wood from Irvings sawmills are chipped for use at the pulp mills.

[SwampDonkey]

Scott:  

But the bark has to be removed from the slabwood first. Bark in the pulp chips doesn't make good quality tissue or paper. They must debark their logs at the sawmills , eh? I do know their chip trucks haul steady. A friend of mine used to complain that the house shook when they went by his house in Peniac on route 8. :D

cheers

[Peck]

Did not have any luck with finding any interested parties. One gentleman that Mr. Lee recommended said that the person that I have lined up to do my clearcutting is very trustworthy. The biggest problem, I was told, is that 10 acres is hardly enough to make it worth their time. The cost to get the equipment there plus operating it eats away at the profit. The only reason this individual will even take the job is because he is already going to be there cutting the saw logs. The property is also not the most convenient piece of land to work with. The back of the property is 3/8 mile away from the chipper. Of course I would like to get some money for the cutting, but if it's not profitable for the logger, I can't expect that to happen. As I said earlier, none of Mr. Lee's contacts were interested, all needed more acreage. Thanks again.

[Peck]

After all that being said, I just recieved a call from one of Mr. Lee's contacts, a very interested party that is willing to pay me for the chips. He is coming out to take a look.  Go figure!

[Jeff]

Keep us posted on how ya make out!

[SwampDonkey]

10 acres is a good junk of land to harvest from. Personally, I wouldn't work on a lot under 15 acres. But, a local contractor cut a 7 acre piece here all last fall and cut around 375 cords off it he said. He didn't chip it though. Best of luck with your wood harvest Peck.

cheers

[Peck]

$2 per ton. That is the price Mr Lee's contact is willing to pay.$2 does not sound like a lot, but it's still better than Zero.  I still am  not sure how much money that amounts to, probably not a lot. Thanks again

[Jeff]

2 dollars for stumpage sounds about right. You should be aboe to get a volume estimate and a good idea on amounts before you sign anything.

[SwampDonkey]

$2 or $3 bucks on a lot that size isn't bad at all for chippin and you don't have a mess left on site. $8-10/ton USD for 100 inch wood pulp is the norm here.