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Manual Or Hydraulic Bandmill

Started by Fly Fisher, March 17, 2009, 10:24:30 AM

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Fly Fisher


    Good morning to all on Forestry Forum,

       This is my first post but I have been on the outside looking in for the past year.
I am amazed at the wealth of information here. I'm interested in starting a custom sawing business and have narrowed my choices to either the Cook's MP 32 manual mill(30hp) or the Timberking 1600 w/basic hyd. The Pro's I see with the manual mill is that it will still saw lumber if the electric up/down & fwd/rev malfunction. With the hyd. Timberking mill I would be done sawing for the day week or month until it gets fixed. The Hydraulics would definitely save my back and speed sawing. I just forsee break downs with the hydraulics I loosing money and jobs. Also I have heard that Timberkings Customer Service leaves alot to be desired?? Any comments would be appreciated.

okie

I, kinda agree with your way of thinking. The more doo dads you get, the more there is to break down, thats why I like old trucks. That being said, if you're wanting high production, you need the hyd. Just curious, what narrowed down your list to those two mills?
Striving to create a self sustaining homestead and lifestyle for my family and myself.

flip

Find a hyd mill and see if you can run it for a little while.  Do the same with the manual and you will have answered your own question.  On my B20 I can get pretty much any part that would wear out at the farm or auto store.
Timberking B-20, Hydraulics make me board quick

Fly Fisher

 Oakie,

 I've been looking at Bandmills for 3yrs and this year makes 4. I have sawn with Woodmizers but don't like the rubber tire deal on their bandwheels. I did like Woodmizers Customer service. Cooks has a true all metal bandwheel and I will have an opportunity to saw with one when the weather shapes up. Also from my experience Cooks strive to please their Customers. I guess I look for quality and Customer service. Timberking has what I want as far as price but their Customer Service has me a little worried.

tcsmpsi

You mention that you are looking at starting a custom sawing business.  

If it were me, actually looking to start a custom sawing business as a primary concern, I would look at getting the most hydraulics, power and efficient mill I could find, and work from a mobile point of view.

From what I see, it will have to work a lot just to keep enough financial flow moving, and providing the payment for the mill should be factored as an acceptable part of that flow.

Loading and turning the logs is much more applicable as difference in hydraulics/manual, than is moving the head up/down, forward/backward, as far as time and efficiency are concerned.  In my opinion.

Now, this comes from someone who has never run a hydraulic mill, or even watched one run.

I run a manual mill.  I cut for myself and others.  Though I do use it a percentage as an integral of the overall business, its primary concern is personal.

I run it by myself almost exclusively.  I have it set up as'temporarily stationary with mobile capability'.   :D

I like the walk back and forth, as it gives me time to rest from off-loading and to think of the next cut, etc.

All that being as it is, I have no problem considering, if the situation warrants it, to unbolt it from the floor and go on the road with it to work.

That's because that's what I have, and I would work it until I could provide an upgraded mill.

\\\"In the end, it is a moral question as to whether man applies what he has learned or not.\\\" - C. Jung

MrMoo

Why not look at Logmaster. They are simple all hydraulic mills. All they have are hydraulic lines and hydraulic motors it doesn't get any simpler than that.

ErikC

  Just a thought-If you are considering a manual mill, have you looked at swingmills? Compared to an all manual band mill, they are a piece of cake to run. The hydraulics seem pretty important to production on a band, but a swinger can cut a couple thousand a day pretty consistently. Low maintenance is definitely a plus, but you have to be able to get some work done at the same time.
Peterson 8" with 33' tracks, JCB 1550 4x4 loader backhoe, several stihl chainsaws

logwalker

What are your reservations about the rubber tires on the Woodmizer? I have one and I switched to tight fitting belts and have been running the same set for 3 years with no problems. Never any buildup under them either. I never understood why WM spec'ed loose belts. Joe
Let's all be careful out there tomorrow. Lt40hd, 22' Kenworth Flatbed rollback dump, MM45B Mitsubishi trackhoe, Clark5000lb Forklift, Kubota L2850 tractor

Fly Fisher

Thanks for all the comments so far,
I guess what I'm asking is will I regret not going hydraulic right from the start? I can afford the Timberking 1600 basic hyd. Does anyone have any comments on their Customer Service?

Tom

Quote from: Fly Fisher on March 17, 2009, 11:13:02 AM
Oakie,

 I've been looking at Bandmills for 3yrs and this year makes 4. I have sawn with Woodmizers but don't like the rubber tire deal on their bandwheels. I did like Woodmizers Customer service. Cooks has a true all metal bandwheel and I will have an opportunity to saw with one when the weather shapes up. Also from my experience Cooks strive to please their Customers. I guess I look for quality and Customer service. Timberking has what I want as far as price but their Customer Service has me a little worried.

Oakie,
Woodmizer's V-belts have served the majority of the industry for 29 years now, give or take.  Much of the remaining industry copied them because it worked.   I ran an LT40H in an intensive, traveling custom sawing operation and enjoyed most everything about the mill, once I learned DC motors enough to trouble shoot them.
You will find a few other manufacturers with little else to compete with other than complaining about Wood Mizer's V-belts and cantilever head. That is all BS!  Wood Mizer makes a great product and stands behind it.

We have a sponser on this board that makes hydraulic mills and uses steel wheels. I have one of them too. Baker Products makes a transportable mill with a great sawing head. There technology is a bit different than that of some other companies but their mill works.

TimberKing has been around since dirt.  They were once Belsaw and made circle mills.  The company sold and began producing bandmills.  I have met Will Johnson and like the man.   I believe him when he says, "Every week we get a call from someone who's still cutting with a Belsaw mill his dad or granddad bought. I want my children to get those calls from my customers' children, saying their fifty-year-old mill is still going strong.    ... we also insist on having the kind of quality and service that has kept us in business for almost 75 years."

You will find Sawyers on this forum with Bandmills made by many manufacturers and technologies that differ, but the list at the left is tried and true when it comes to these companies being concerned about their customers.

Brad_S.

While I know some of you out there saw for hire with a manual mill, I personally can't imaging doing so. Time is money, and manual mills are too slow IMO. I learned the hard way that you get what you pay for with mills. Don't make a decision based on price alone, make sure you get a mill that will do what you need it to do and if you are concerned with parts or service, strike that mill from your list, regardless of price.
Just my 2¢.
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans." J. Lennon

okie

Quote from: Tom on March 17, 2009, 02:36:58 PM
Quote from: Fly Fisher on March 17, 2009, 11:13:02 AM
Oakie,

 I've been looking at Bandmills for 3yrs and this year makes 4. I have sawn with Woodmizers but don't like the rubber tire deal on their bandwheels. I did like Woodmizers Customer service. Cooks has a true all metal bandwheel and I will have an opportunity to saw with one when the weather shapes up. Also from my experience Cooks strive to please their Customers. I guess I look for quality and Customer service. Timberking has what I want as far as price but their Customer Service has me a little worried.

I believe you Tom, but I believe it was someone else questioning the v belts :D

Oakie,
Woodmizer's V-belts have served the majority of the industry for 29 years now, give or take.  Much of the remaining industry copied them because it worked.   I ran an LT40H in an intensive, traveling custom sawing operation and enjoyed most everything about the mill, once I learned DC motors enough to trouble shoot them.
You will find a few other manufacturers with little else to compete with other than complaining about Wood Mizer's V-belts and cantilever head. That is all BS!  Wood Mizer makes a great product and stands behind it.

We have a sponser on this board that makes hydraulic mills and uses steel wheels. I have one of them too. Baker Products makes a transportable mill with a great sawing head. There technology is a bit different than that of some other companies but their mill works.

TimberKing has been around since dirt.  They were once Belsaw and made circle mills.  The company sold and began producing bandmills.  I have met Will Johnson and like the man.   I believe him when he says, "Every week we get a call from someone who's still cutting with a Belsaw mill his dad or granddad bought. I want my children to get those calls from my customers' children, saying their fifty-year-old mill is still going strong.    ... we also insist on having the kind of quality and service that has kept us in business for almost 75 years."

You will find Sawyers on this forum with Bandmills made by many manufacturers and technologies that differ, but the list at the left is tried and true when it comes to these companies being concerned about their customers.
[/quote
Striving to create a self sustaining homestead and lifestyle for my family and myself.

flip

I took the solid wheels off my B20 because they  would not track worth a hoot.  Went to the new style belted wheels, MHO tracks better band life is better less vibration. 

I love my TK but the customer service leaves a lot to be desired.  The only person there that knows anyting is Mike, he is their head tech guy.  Ask for him and if you have to call back it is worth the wait.  I have howled and moaned about TKs lack of updates on their web site, guess they don't care if people know about diesels they offer or lap attachments or...Wake up TK UPDATE YOUR WEB SITE!!!   It is the same as it was 5 years ago.  Sheesh!
Timberking B-20, Hydraulics make me board quick

JV

I kept my old manual mill when I bought a new Wood-mizer LT-40 hydraulic.  Figured I could extend it cheaply for sawing extra long beams.  I did do some custom work with it.  It is now drawing dust.  If you are going to custom saw you will want hydraulics, trust me.  Turning large, heavy logs is not a one man job and pushing that saw head all day long trying to make some production gets old regardless of your age.  I love my Wood-mizer but I have run a B-20 and it's a nice mill.  I have loose belts on my WM and haven't had a  problem and their customer service is second to no one.
John

'05 Wood-mizer LT40HDG28-RA, Lucas 613 Swing Mill, Stihl 170, 260 Pro, 660, 084 w/56" Alaskan Mill, 041 w/Lewis Winch, Case 970 w/Farmi Winch, Case 850 Crawler Loader, Case 90XT Skidloader, Logrite tools

Fly Fisher

   Had a computer glitch this morning but don't know if it is fixed? but made it back on.
Well after reading your comments I'm back to where I started. I can get the jist that if I were to custom saw, hydraulics would be the way to go. I'll try calling Mike at Timberking and bend his ear a little. I was trying to buy a mill without going into too much debt and most hydraulic mills are $25,000+. I might just have to start out with a used hydraulic mill but am absolutely clueless on fixing hydraulics.
Thanks for all the input.  As for Customer Service that is as important as the sawmill

1938farmall

fly fisher,  i have the tk1600 and it is so simple i can't imagine you would need to call for customer service, so good or bad, i don't see that as much of a factor.  you will need to beef up the log stops and the plastic energy chain will break, but that's engineering.  you don't say where you are located, but if it is in the north country you will have to figure out how to make the hydraulics work in cold weather (i imagine that is why woodmizer uses dc motors).  i second everything said about power feed and you will need the log loader unless you have another slick way to get logs on the carriage.  you can roll them by cant hook for exercise once they are up there. :)  the top ad at sawmillexchange is a 25hp tk1600. al
aka oldnorskie

ladylake

  I've got around 7000 hours on my B20 TK mill with no problems with the hydraulics except for when I dragged a hose on the ground during transport once. I like TK's  6 hp gas engine running the hydraulics rather than electric over hydraulics, never any trouble with that system. Mike is the best TK service guy but I haven't had to talk to him in over 3 years now since I put a industrial cord reel on to cure the eratic setworks. And as mentioned every thing on my B20 is easy to fix.   Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

epiphoneprs

I agree about the customer service at TK. I ordered a part from them once and got something not even close to what I needed. The mills are good and if anything messes up you can get the parts locally. Mike definately is the one to talk to. I've also had good luck with Jason. Good luck.

kelLOGg

I have an MP32 and I think it is a well made mill in spite of the modifications I have made to it ;D. And I haven't had any trouble with it except for my own temporary screw-ups in modifying it. Support from the Cooks is excellent. If I were starting a serious custom sawing business I would definitely get a hydraulic mill. Given my age, physical size, etc. the manual mill wears me out when sawing all day long. (Don't know which one I would get but it would have more labor saving devices on it. Especially something to push a cant to the squaring arm.) I am partial to the 4 post mills but I must admit the compactness of the WM is enviable. My mill is 29 feet long and saws a 20 ft log - the WM is not much over 20? (someone else will know) and also saws a 20 footer. This limits where I can take my mill.

Bob
Cook's MP-32, 20HP, 20' (modified w/ power feed, up/down, loader/turner)
DH kiln, CatClaw setter and sharpener, tandem trailer, log arch, tractor, thumb tacks

backwoods sawyer

I like my hydraulics on my Woodmizer, and like you, I do not like rubber tired band wheels. I ordered a set of Woodmizer solid steel wheels for a LT-300, as the mount right up on the LT-70. Woodmizer hemmed and hawed a bit, but shipped them out when I offered to get a set from Cook. I just like running crowned wheels, I feel it gives me a bit more control on how the saw tracks, and I get much better then average blade life.

If you think you will be sawing much at all get the hydraulics, we are not getting any younger. Yep they cost more, and it is something else to go wrong, however they run a simple hydraulic system that is not hard to work on.
Backwoods Custom Milling Inc.
100% portable. . Oregons largest portable sawmill service, serving all of Oregon, from our Backwoods to yours..sawing since 1991

thecfarm

Manual mills are SLOW.Hyds cost more,but in the long run,will make you money.The only way a manual mill is cheaper,if you can get 2-3 people that will work for free.  :D   I have a manual mill,but it's for my own use.I have been around hyd mills,those thing can do a much faster job.Remember time is money.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Fly Fisher

     Hydraulics it is. Now I need to figure out what I can afford. Can't find anyone to work for free, and for that matter when you say work noone shows up.
1938farmall, you said the energy chain on the 1600 was plastic?  No wonder they break especially in colder weather. I heard about the hydraulic problem but Timberking Rep blew it off as never heard of the cold weather problem with their Hydraulics. Might just need lighter fluids in Winter sawing? 
Thanks again for all your comments

Scott (Ohio)

WH_Conley

Check out the for sale section. A timberking mill with extensions there that I listed for the estate of an old friend of mine.

What part of Ohio are you in?  The mill is about 30 miles from Portsmouth.
Bill

Brucer

I couldn't afford a hydraulic mill when I started my business. So I bought a new WM LT-40 with the Log Deck Package -- basically a couple of toeboards and a winch that could be used to roll a log up the ramps, or used to operate a turner. I managed to get some pretty big logs onto that mill (e.g., 34" dia, 20' long, 4000 lb).

When my business took off after a year or so, I had no trouble getting a bank loan to buy a hydraulic mill -- and no problem selling my year-old manual. I paid off that 5-year loan in twenty months ;D. Thing is, I would never have got the loan without a track record. I also didn't earn anywhere near enough in the first year to make the payments on a hydraulic mill.

Maintenance on hydraulics is pretty minimal. Change your filters when you're supposed to, use the recommended fluids, NEVER let the fluid get too low. In 3 years I've had one hose spring a leak and a couple of velocity fuses fail. Not much to fixing those -- just some wrenches (but it's messy).

I work in the winter and haven't had a problem with the hydraulics. They're a bit sluggish first thing in the day buy hydraulic systems generate heat so they get up to operating temperature pretty quick. If it's cold enough to cause serious problems, then it's too cold to be outside anyway.

I've never had a problem with the drive wheel belts. I prefer to run 'em loose; other folks like them nice and tight. Whatever works for you. I'd just as soon avoid metal on metal for that application.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

bandmiller2

Scott, as Eric said take a good look at a swing mill find one and watch/help.With a bandmill you will also have to deal with sharpening bands and setting teeth.Good sharpening equipment is expensive,most swings come with a sharpener.You will end up hyd. if you go with a bandmill,if money is tight,specify to the builder you will want to upgrade to hydraulic later.With these times you should be able to find a good used hyd. mill with sharpening equip in your range.Don't rush their out there.Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

brdmkr

Regarding hydraulics and repairs.....

I read where someone asked who made the hydraulic pump on their tractor, or who made the cylinders.  He went on to say that most folks could not tell you the name brand because they so seldom cause problems.  (I may have read that on the FF ;D)

I have a manual mill, but someday!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lucas 618  Mahindra 4110, FEL and pallet forks, some cant hooks, and a dose of want-to

ErikC

  I have had and operated many hydraulic machines, but never owned a hydraulic mill. In the other machines, hydraulics are pretty trouble free. Weather will eventually get hoses, and there may be small leaks from the cylinders at times. Fittings vibrate loose and leak occasionally, a wrench will fix that pretty quick. But it all keeps working, and if there is a problem it's pretty obvious. Keep the fluid clean and full, pumps last a long time. One of the worst things for the gear type pumps is cavitation, from air when the fluid is too low.
   The most aggravating thing in my opinion is electric components. They just don't mix well with dirt and vibration, and pretty soon, you are wondering what the problem is. It doesn't take anything obvious to short out a wire, or a little transistor. I wouldn't be afraid of a machine with a lot of hydraulics as much as I would a lot of electrics. Just my opinion, from my experiences.
Peterson 8" with 33' tracks, JCB 1550 4x4 loader backhoe, several stihl chainsaws

davemartin88

My only experience with mills is with Woodmizer but--- I've had a manual LT15 mill for about 4 years and cut a lot of wood for myself and took a few jobs for others- the mill did all I asked and I'm in better shape than I've been in years from the exercise. I took delivery today on a new, fully hydraulic mill and wow, what a difference! From the time the first log went on to the hydraulic loader and was virtually untouched by human hands until the boards were offloaded, I'm hooked! What a difference and there is no doubt how much more I'll be able to do with this mill. I told Marty (Pennsylvania Woodmizer owner) that I think it should be a requirement for everyone that buys a hydraulic mill to have to have used a manual mill first as you'll really appreciate the difference. If you're going to make it a business and can afford the hydraulics, I would recommend you go that way. Having said that, I sold my manual mill for a good price so if you need to start that way, consider resale value before you buy because if you're successful, I think you'll be looking for hydraulics down the road. Best of luck.

Brucer

Quote from: davemartin88 on March 18, 2009, 07:43:14 PM
I told Marty (Pennsylvania Woodmizer owner) that I think it should be a requirement for everyone that buys a hydraulic mill to have to have used a manual mill first as you'll really appreciate the difference.

;D

I learned a few things about log handling with a manual mill that I'd never have thought of if I'd started with a hydrualic mill.

LT50, eh, Dave. I'm jealous.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

ladylake

  If I have help we still turn the small logs and cants by hand, it's faster than even my chain turner which I wouldn't give up.  Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

ljmathias

I started with an LT30 manual- a really old one and abused some to boot.  Great learning tool and taught me how to load and turn using what I had on hand.  I should say it is very difficult to cut large logs into timbers for post and beams and even to turn large slabs and cants by hand- for example, 30" diameter red oak is just a bear when it's 16' long; that's a lot of weight to muscle around and I've damaged body parts trying.

All the problems with handling basically disappeared when I got my LT40 hydraulic.  Yes, you pay a lot more, but the trade offs in productivity, safety and peace of mind (and body) are without price.  If you have any plans on cutting larger logs, a small manual mill can be frustrating and downright dangerous.  If you're just cutting smaller logs, a manual works fine and is a great way to get started.

Yes, there is more upkeep and expense in operating a hydraulic mill- goes with the territory.  Anytime you have a more complex piece of equipment, more things can and will break or require attention, but the trade-off is well worth it.  Yes, you spend a little more time on keeping every thing tuned up and running, but not that much more, and your productivity goes up enormously.  I haven't reached the levels you read about on the forum, but I don't have to nor do I want to.  I cut for myself right now, and half the fun is deciding what to cut based on what you need (should have said, what I need since I rarely cut for others).  Trying to get the logs to do something that nature didn't build in is frustrating and not very productive but most sawyers, I would guess, haven't got the time or logs to do other than force the wood to be what is needed. 

For example, I had to take down a really big sweet gum last year- top had blown off in Katrina and while it struggled to recover, never quite made it- better to harvest it before it rotted on the stump.  Had a butt piece about 4' long that I cut into 2" slabs, some up to 12" wide.  Stacked them under the shed on the barn and just left them- went back last week and found that most had twisted and cupped and bowed like crazy, but oh my, what beautiful grain and color!  Rather than look at this wood as production wood, I view it as opportunity wood- something to work with and through to make unusual furniture, for example.  This is not the approach that a production sawmill can take, unless it's a small shop and can afford time for individual projects of a longer-term nature.

Anyway, best of luck and remember that it's always easier to trade up than down (unless you have more free money than I do) and learning depends on the learner, not so much the tools.

Lj
LT40, Long tractor with FEL and backhoe, lots of TF tools, beautiful wife of 50 years plus 4 kids, 5 grandsons AND TWO GRANDDAUGHTERS all healthy plus too many ideas and plans and not enough time and energy

pineywoods

Fly fisher, I hope you aren't totally overlooking something that is just as important as the mill. You are gonna have to have some material handling help, at the very least a tractor, preferably with forks either front or rear. Handling logs, slabs and lumber by hand will sooner or later destroy your back, and probably other parts as well. If I had to make a choice between a hydraulic mill only or a manual with handling equipment, I'd go for the manual...Been there, done that, added hydraulics later.
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

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