Changing planer head inserts

[petefrom bearswamp]

Yesterday I started to replace my carbide inserts after 16 years and 4 turns.
The first time I turned I had a terrible time getting some of the torx head screws out, breaking several bits.
at that time I broke the culprits out with a punch to get the screws out.
This however resulted in some dings in the insert seats which I smoothed with fine sandpaper.
I called Byrd as the Bridgewood dealer I bought the planer from was out of business and the guy there told me to tighten to a max of 55 in pounds which I have done since then.
No problems taking the screws out until yesterday.
The first 10 or so came out easily then I started breaking bits again.
Ran out of bits.
I am thinking maybe a cordless impact driver with the proper impact ready bits may work.
Any suggestions?
Also where is a good place to buy inserts?
frustrated Pete

[Crusarius]

Sounds like you need better bits to me. what size are they?

[btulloh]

The byrd head in my powematic uses torx-plus (same as torx-ts) instead of regular torx.  These will take more torque than the regular torx.  I would think that all these heads use the torx-plus style.  The regular torx will fit but it's not the right thing to drive these and will strip with less torque than normal.  (Don't ask how I learned this.)  If you get a set of torx-plus bits you should be ok.

[btulloh]

There is a torque spec for tightening these also, probably in your manual.  It's not a bad idea to follow the spec.  Being carbide, and brittle, the cutters don't like to be over-tightened.  I use a torque screwdriver from my gun tools or a 1/4" torque wrench to finish up.  Things have gone a lot smoother since I started using the torx-plus bits and tightening to spec.  It's quite a job to replace or rotate all these cutters, but worth the price of admission.

[Simple Jack]

What would help is spray them down with Kroil let it set for a day or two and they will come out easier. Guaranteed!!

[petefrom bearswamp]

Thanks everybody
Bits are 20.
I have torqued to spec per the byrd guy with my 1/4' torque wrench when installing.
After the initial problem 15 years ago, I havent had a problem until yesterday
There is no corrosion of any kind apparent in the threaded holes.
Grandson came this evening with his deWalt impact driver and took several out then broke the standard bit he was using.
I will hit Lowes tomorrow to get some torque spec impact bits.
He left me his driver.
I have used a lot of different penetrates in my short but happy life with varying results.
kroil, pb blaster, blue creeper and its predecessor green whatever.
Each seems to have its place, IMO one does not fit all applications.
I will try the better bits tomorrow with the impact driver.

[tule peak timber]

With insert tooling I paint with diesel to loosen things up. Same on on my tersa cutter heads. I buy my inserts from Rangate .Good luck on those tiny little torx screws !!!

[Bill Gaiche]

Cut a torx bit to a length that you can install into the screw that doesn't want to turn and strike the torx bit with a hammer a couple of times to shock it. Then try and remove. This works many times. bg

[YellowHammer]

I've had this problem before, I always felt it was a tiny amount of pitch or wood fiber build up getting wedged between the cutterhead seat and the insert, in essence wedging or packing in between them and putting extra load on the screw, in effect jamming it.  

I use a hardened Torx size driver bit, with a very small impact driver I got years ago, to unseat them.  The impact driver will butcher up most Torx bits, but that's OK as long as the screws come out. 50 inch pounds is the correct setting torque for Byrd inserts.  I use a small butterfly style torque wrench to mount them.  

I have found that extremely thoroughly cleaning the seats is important, as well as cleaning the bottoms of the inserts, before reinstallation. I buff the inserts, bottom side down, across 800 grit sandpaper to polish them back up.  Very clean machine seats, polished insert bottoms, machine oil in the screw hole, and they will come out nicely next time.  
  

[WDH]

I clean the head and the seats with diesel fuel and a brass brush after I remove the inserts.  Then, I drop the inserts and screws into a container of diesel as I remove them.  Helps to soften any pitch or build-up, making them easier to get clean.  Then, I wipe all the diesel off the head and seats, then blow the head and seats with compressed air.  The torx head screw holes will hold a little remnant diesel on the threads.  Wipe off the inserts and screws.  Resist the urge to over-tighten when reinstalling the screws.   

[Bruno of NH]

Milwaukee makes heavy duty torx bits

[petefrom bearswamp]

Dont know what I would do without this forum.
a second thanks to all.
Heading to town for impact torx bits this am.

[alan gage]

machine oil in the screw hole, and they will come out nicely next time.

The torx head screw holes will hold a little remnant diesel on the threads.

I'm curious what the manufacturers say about lubricating the threads. I come from the automotive world and generally torque is specified for clean/dry threads. Lubricating the fasteners can result in more strain on the fastener and threads.

Obviously it hasn't been causing you guys any problems, just made me wonder.

Alan

[YellowHammer]

The oil (I use WD40, which is oil and solvent) will help prevent galling, and will also help dissolve any additional pitch or gum on the threads that will cause problems later.  I use a torque wrench, then torque to spec, then click it again.  The toque spec gets the screw into its elastic region, and snugs up well, you can feel it, especially since is has fine threads.  I've never had any inadvertently come loose, but have had many stick.  If the screws are put in too tightly, the carbides will crack.  If they have dirty seats, they will not mount well.  Basically, everything has to be clean and right for them to seat perfectly, otherwise even a minute issue will cause a streak in the surface of the wood, which will need to be addressed.

I was told to always rotate the inserts 180° for the first rotation, then 90°, then 180°.  The idea is to always have balanced worn corners in the wood.  An insert initially only rotated 90° will have one dull edge corner and one dull corner striking the wood, and will leave streaks. 

 

  

[tule peak timber]

I quit using WD-40 years back when I found out that it will pull moisture out of the air and rust metal.As a solvent or parts washer it is ok.
 Being hit by a cracked carbide insert that comes apart at speed is like being shot by a BB gun....ouch !There is a difference on who manufactured the insert, it's property's and quality.
  On thread lube you might want to write LocTite corp, as they have answers from aerospace to subterranean applications.  Me, I just leave what little diesel is left over from the high pressure air hose.

[LeeB]

I have yet to flip mine but suspect I should. I would assume those of you that have marked them in some way to track the orientation?

[PA_Walnut]

I have yet to flip mine but suspect I should. I would assume those of you that have marked them in some way to track the orientation?

They usually have a little dot on them for reference. Also, very nice T-handle torque wrench available that works great, inexpensive and easy to use. Can get online.

[YellowHammer]

Some of the Byrds actually have a little bird symbol in one corner. 

[petefrom bearswamp]

Thought I posted this yesterday but not so.
Got 4 dewalt impact ready bits and the first few screws came out OK then I broke 2.
Now soaking with Kroil, if that doesnt work PB Blaster then Blue creeper if necessary
Btulloh where do you get the torx plus bits?
Rob I tried the place you suggested for inserts but couldnt find them on their site.
YH I like your 180 rotation method.

[tule peak timber]

Pete , At Rangate ask for Greg, he owns the company. They definitely sell all the different size inserts and they are German and Swiss sourced, very good quality.     gregg@rangate.com

[btulloh]

Btulloh where do you get the torx plus bits?

Most auto parts stores have them.  Pro tool stores.  The Snapon truck has them $$$$.  Even Northern has them.

It was changing planer inserts that got me educated on Torx Plus.  There is a lot more bearing surface for the bits so they will take the necessary force.  A regular torx driver used on  torx-plus head has less bearing surface than normal.

Where are the screws breaking?

You may want to try using a small ratchet or break bar of some sort to break a couple loose so you can feel what's going on.  Sometimes sustained pressure will work without hitting the breaking point.

Perhaps a better combination of Navy words will help.  That always helps me.  At least it makes me feel better for the moment.  :D


ADD:  If the body is breaking near the surface (which would be a real pain) it's got to be something locking the threads.  Corrosion or ??.  Do you see any red residue??  Maybe some fiend put some red locktite on the them.  I have broken red locktite (where I couldn't just take a torch directly to the head) by holding the screwdriver tightly in the head and heating the shaft of the screwdriver to let the head flow down the shaft into the screw.  I've never run had the problem you're having but it does not sound like fun.

[tule peak timber]

These are labeled in Italian from Garniga, pretty sure they are made in Germany.They out mill Asian brands hands down. Very good quality.

 

[Dan_Shade]

How do you tell the difference between inserts? 

I have a grizzly planer that takes one and a shop fox jointer that takes another, but I can't tell the inserts apart....

[tule peak timber]

There is a European standard with stepped sizes.

[Larry]

I take a picture of how inserts are aligned on the head than rotate clockwise.  I write on the machine "rotated clockwise XX-XX-XX". 

These are probably some of the first inserts Byrd used as I got them maybe 15 years ago.



It seems the nomenclature on the inserts change every few years so I wonder if Byrd is changing suppliers.  I bought a head last year and the inserts only had "BT" in one corner.

I've always used Byrd supplied Torx tools without any problem.  I just looked and they say "USA".

I use a torque wrench to tighten after cleaning the screws and head.  In the picture the top wrench is HF.  I will guarantee its inaccurate and will create expensive problems if used.  The next torque wrench is a USA made Proto which is what I use.