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Mahogany

Started by nativewolf, April 11, 2018, 05:19:05 PM

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nativewolf

Anyone ever get a chance to work in a Mahogany Plantation?  Been years since i did tropical plantations but I was asked to help manage a plantation in Hawaii.  I was wondering if anyone did, would they have markets for thinnings.  I know quite a bit about the species but finding a market for thinnings in Hawaii will be interesting.  Maybe like our Teak growers, they will get containerized and sent off.  

Thanks All!
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mike_belben

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teakwood

We have mahogany here but if never heard of planting in plantations. i think they need 80-100 years to get to useful size, not really interesting for plantation cycling. I think there are over 30 div. mahogany species. We have the so called Honduran Mahogany and i did some board samples and was not impressed by the color of the wood. just a reddish wood without much grain. I don't know if there are other most beautiful species   
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nativewolf

Mike:  I'll have to go find out, I just was looking at the plat and photos. 

Teakwood:  Wondering about the rotation myself.  I mean it is supposed to be growing 1+ meters a year and DBH is supposed to be fast increment as well.  Not sure why it would be planted, instead of teak, if the rotation has to be 60 years but lots of literature suggest 60 year rotation.  I know in Thailand we did not have it on 60 year rotations but Thai are not ...the most long term planning folks in general.  Your ancestors probably take the prize in that regard (good long term managers).
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teakwood

that's interesting

60years, that could be. always take in consideration that fast "young" grown plantation wood will never have the same quality and beautiful color than old single growth trees

I don't know if teak could be grown in Hawaii but i'm sure it would make more sense than mahogany.  Grows faster, same or higher price, lots of buyers, ...

In Thailand the teak plantations have 40years cycles instead of our 20years. it must grow slower there
National Stihl Timbersports Champion Costa Rica 2018

nativewolf

Teak in Thailand is either growing in a area with only 4 month wet season, pretty dry and really hot in summer. Or is growing in natural range which is further north, high elevation and frankly pretty cool in winter, wetter, but cooler.  If you want to see amazing teak go to Irriwaddy river in central Myanmar.  Wow.  

Yeah, I am wondering why they planted Mahogany instead of Teak.  I mean Volcanic soils that can grown anything.  Why not teak? 

What's your rainfall like in your part of CR?
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nativewolf

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nativewolf

Wow, 68 inches of rain a year on average and very little variance from month to month.  Man, should be able to grown anything if you get nutrients management under control.
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Southside

And now you know why Monsanto has such a giant research presence in Hawaii.  
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mike_belben

Thats big island.  I kinda figured it would be there or molokai.  All the other real estate is priced where only millionaire homes or apartments/retail shops can go on a postage stamp of land profitably.  Big island actually has cows so the price has to be lower due to more land/less people. 

I was stationed in oahu for 4 years.  The biggest thing that will catch you by surprise in the islands is probably the total lack of industrial support. There just isnt any trucking or equipment or manufacturing there.  Nothing metal is made in hawaii and a mechanic is a guy who fixes cars and weedwackers.    If it isnt sold at home depot then its mail order and the freight on everything is insane.   


This may not be a consideration on your part of the job at all, but for me.. The biggest thing would be maintaining any harvest equipment.  Theres just so few welders, lathes, mills and hose crimpers on those islands.   Probably one of the few times i would say import a brand new machine and hope for the best.  Matson and CSX are the only way anything gets there.  Here in the states you wont have to look too far for too long to find a guy who can work on your iron.  Out there, not so.  I bet Dole and the highway dept own the only tractors in the state.  I dont think i ever saw a single one. 

In general, be aware that the eastern (windward) sides of the islands get the daily rain and as it crosses the mountains the clouds dry.  In summer the western sides are nearly deserts, much more brown and prone to drought.  Winter is wet all over.  Its probably comparable to a asian or central american climate.  I dunno if itll matter but there is also a lot of salt in the air coming off the ocean.  It rots cars very very badly.  Salt powder plus sun just eats away at windshield frames and roof drip rails, any edges.  What will that do to these trees?
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mike_belben

is this stuff that grows well in dense clumps or does it need spacing?  Because hawaii is a jungle of sun and rain.. If youve got spaced crowns youre gonna have crazy undergrowth to control.  The bamboo there will grow so tight you cant walk through it. 
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nativewolf

Quote from: mike_belben on April 12, 2018, 09:50:18 AM
is this stuff that grows well in dense clumps or does it need spacing?  Because hawaii is a jungle of sun and rain.. If youve got spaced crowns youre gonna have crazy undergrowth to control.  The bamboo there will grow so tight you cant walk through it.
Oh in the tropics control of understory is a key issue, that's one reason teak gets planted densely and why teakwood thins several times.  Even then he's fighting to keep nutrients in the trees and not grasses, etc.  They have the same issue for sure in Hawaii but I'm not sure how much moisture Teakwood gets, seems from his photos that it is in the 60" a year kind of level, otherwise moisture deficiency opens up the forest, just too dry and the trees have an advantage. 
 The site is an east facing slope a mile from the ocean so rain should be abundant all season,  looks like a place to grow trees.  You'd get almost no growth ring (in tropics dry season will cause a growth ring) which would be interesting from a manufacturing point of view. 
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mike_belben

If big island is like oahu, a mile from the windward coast will rain nearly every morning all year.  Winter will have full rainy days but nearly as much sunshine as well.  Im still curious if mahogony is adaptable to the salt.   Id say the coldest temp i felt in 4 years was maybe 55f.  And let me tell you it was freeeeezing.  Like, 'we might die, quick, look in the closet to see if we own a sweatshirt!' cold.
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longtime lurker

There are plantings of Swamp Mahogany Eucalyptus robusta (and I also believe Red Mahogany Eucalyptus pellita) in Hawaii. So it might not be Swietenia spp. when they say "Mahogany".

Just sayin' 
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nativewolf

Quote from: longtime lurker on April 13, 2018, 06:15:03 AM
There are plantings of Swamp Mahogany Eucalyptus robusta (and I also believe Red Mahogany Eucalyptus pellita) in Hawaii. So it might not be Swietenia spp. when they say "Mahogany".

Just sayin'
Ahh, well that makes sense.  Eucalyptus Robusta; Eucalyptus pellita).  Any idea who harvest them? And what the business case is?   I mean a Euc plantation on the Big Island would have a 8 year to thinning, 15 year to harvest sort of schedule I'd think.  
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longtime lurker

I dont know much about robusta... grows well south of here but i do know it was planted there quite extensively about 60 to 80 years back and has gone pretty much feral.

Pellita we cut regularly, both native forest and some plantation material. I think its ideally about a 40 year rotation at a minimum, 60 will give very high quality logs. I was involved in a small way in a study relating to pellita that will tell you much about mid rotation qualities at 18 years old. the link will take you to one of the 4 parts of the study, google will help you find the rest.

http://www.fwpa.com.au/images/resources/FWPA_PN07.3022_Part%20C_0.pdf

The business case is simple: the stuff grows reasonably quickly and cuts a reasonable board with structural properties in juvenile material better then mature white oak has. it is very durable, naturally resistant to termites and decay fungi etc. Here its rated at 30 years in ground durability untreated and we have truly the worlds worst termites. Stuff hurts their teeth so they leave it alone.
And its red, as in red red and attractive. And the chinese love the stuff because it slices quite well to give an attractive grain, and peels quite well to give a veneer that imparts a lot of strength to a ply. And like mot eucalypts the woodchip is premium quality because of fibre length or whatever they grade it on... so it gets a premium price even there. and in Hawaii it would have no native pests or diseases so should grown even better then here.



That is pellita there, logs just big enough to saw 8 x8's with no sap in the corners so probably 20 years or so old. its strong, dont rot, nothing eats it... and the colour sells it.  I love the stuff
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

teakwood

Nice wood, Aussie.
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teakwood

We got around 100" of rain a year with 3-4 month dryseason, temps 22-35degrees (72-95), at sea level. that's pretty much ideal for teak. Teak loves the hot temps, needs lots of water but not too much, a little wind is ok but should not be storm wind or they crack or get damaged.

In the Caribbean side of CR they have 180" of rain year around and teak grows even faster there but does not develop the beautiful dark color in the heartwood so the  price drops significantly. Teak needs some dryseason month so they drop all the leaves and start over growing when the rain comes back, like fall and winter     
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teakwood

Quote from: mike_belben on April 12, 2018, 09:47:07 AMSalt powder plus sun just eats away at windshield frames and roof drip rails, any edges.  What will that do to these trees?


That's a very good question and i don't know the answer. would be interesting to know if teak or mahogany adapts to the salt. maybe somebody knows and will chime in
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nativewolf

Very nice pictures of the Pellita.  I can imagine that would be a hit in China.  Rotation length is surprising to me, I'd have though with the moderate clime you'd be able to push that along like a P. radiata; ie large sawlogs in 20 years.  So it is a slow growing Euc compared to others?   Very cool tree, thanks for sharing!

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nativewolf

Quote from: teakwood on April 13, 2018, 07:46:14 AM
We got around 100" of rain a year with 3-4 month dryseason, temps 22-35degrees (72-95), at sea level. that's pretty much ideal for teak. Teak loves the hot temps, needs lots of water but not too much, a little wind is ok but should not be storm wind or they crack or get damaged.

In the Caribbean side of CR they have 180" of rain year around and teak grows even faster there but does not develop the beautiful dark color in the heartwood so the  price drops significantly. Teak needs some dryseason month so they drop all the leaves and start over growing when the rain comes back, like fall and winter    
I figured you had to be pretty moist, your pictures show such lush growth.  So by comparission the teak plantations you reference in Thailand are only getting half your moisture.  I guess that's the holdup on rotation.  On the other hand, color is excellent.
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teakwood

yes, for sure and you said that they just have 4 month rain season, that's another factor.

As the teak grows nicely here also does the underbrush!! it's a real fight to battle that
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Ed_K

 There's a story in Biomass Magazine about Powering Paradise. Their building a 30-MW Hu Honua Bioenergy plant on the big island. They planted Eucalyptus on acre's of what was sugar plantations to run this biomass plant. Would this be the management job?
Ed K

nativewolf

No nothing related.  Think a very small version of The Decedents (George Clooney movie reference).  Only no family drama, really just a management issue and a consulting issue.  I'd be the consulting forester, wouldn't do the harvest but make sure plans were in place, vegetative controls were being practiced (Teakwood is so right, if you don't stay up on the veg control in the wet tropics you are going to loose huge % of potential growth).  

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longtime lurker

Quote from: nativewolf on April 13, 2018, 07:56:56 AM
Very nice pictures of the Pellita.  I can imagine that would be a hit in China.  Rotation length is surprising to me, I'd have though with the moderate clime you'd be able to push that along like a P. radiata; ie large sawlogs in 20 years.  So it is a slow growing Euc compared to others?   Very cool tree, thanks for sharing!
Most eucalypts are pretty steady growth wise: goes with the high density/ extreme strength I suspect. Takes a while to lay down fibre of those qualities. I would class pellita as moderate by euc standards even in a tropical climate like here. Form also plays a part - the likes of Euc grandis (rose or flooded gum) goes tall fast and then takes a long time to girth out because of the height. pellita is more average in height but denser so often slower
To put it in perspective we are currently cutting a native forest stand that includes a mix of pellita and grandis. it's a mixed age cut for ecological reasons with a pretty high retention rate of stems for either habitat or next harvest purposes - being a native stand its not clear cut. The high retention rate also helps timber production in terms of making the next generation grow up chasing light rather then needing pruning to stop them growing dumpy.
The last harvest cycle through there was about 40 years back which is in line with the normal state harvest rotation for "wild" timber production areas.
We average about 30-50' of sawlog with an average diameter at midpoint of about 15" in the pellita. Most of those are probably 40-50 years old. Density is about 78 lb/ft3
We average about 65-85' of sawlog with an average diameter at midpoint of about 15" in the grandis. Most of those are 30-40 years old. Density is around 49 lb/ft3
American White Oak is about 47 lb/ft3, so as you can see the strength/density of the pellita is considerably greater while the grandis is about the same.
Course give them all 100 years and they spit out some seriously good logs. At 200 they get a bit over ripe.

Eucalyptus grandis: Rose or Flooded Gum, mature stem proabbaly abotu 150 years old and on the downhill slide. Best guess from that picture is shes got 100' of log from ground to the bottom of the crown.

Eucalyptus resinifera: the other "red mahogany" (2 subspecies but pellita is virtually identical, its kinda like the red oak thing) probably pushing 200 years old. That lump has been lying there on the ground through regular burning cycles since the last harvest in the late 1970's. The sapwood has degraded but the heartwood in that will be like cutting a steel bar by now: thats where the value lies in the denser eucalypts... extreme durability and naturally fire and insect resistant.
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

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