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I just got home with a 2011 LT35HD - I need your counsel on how to succeed.

Started by MikeySP, January 30, 2019, 05:14:30 PM

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Magicman

Just be sure to turn the correct face out/in.  I would lay a ~1" strip about ½" up from the bottom so that the bottom board will match the others.  Tapering the bottom board edge will also provide a sharp edge to serve as a drip edge.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

78NHTFY

MikeySP--good thread.  You got the addiction bad....and there's no cure :o!  It's revived my own interest in cobbling together a debarker for my LT 40 using an old electric chainsaw with a modified cutter bar/chain.  It's just a pipe dream as I have none of your skills :'(...
I have cut lots of 6" pine lap siding.  I cut 6" cants, lay 2 or 3 together on the sawmill bed and saw. (Drop 1/2"--saw, drop 1/2"--saw: with 1/8" kerf of the blade, you get 3/8" siding).   Best to sticker dry for a month at least, it dries fast.  It will also reveal which ones are no good (curl, cup, split....).  I cut mine 3/8" and got 95% good ones (cut like in blue diagram you made).  When dry, used old cans of left over stain and rolled the back side of each piece (8' to 12' long), to seal backside.  Then did two coats of stain for the front side of the siding.  Because lap siding has space behind most of each board (4"), dispensed with any verticals for an air gap.  Nailed bottom of each siding with stainless ring shanks.  They've been on 2 Winters so far and still looking very good.  Oh yeah--make sure your trim (corners, windows) are thick enough to account for the lap.  Attached is a pic of my kitchen addition.  All the best, Rob.

 

If you have time, you win....

MikeySP

Magicman, thank you for that correction. I will hearken!

Rob, thank you for chiming in, for the encouragement, and for the good ideas. The office/shed can survive for a few weeks while I see how it all dries up. Pic looks good!

-Mike

MikeySP

Howdy! I visited a potential customer's house. I am trying to figure out what he can expect from his desires and what to charge. 

General Details (numbers are close approximations):

  • 50 Cedar logs
  • Felled a year ago. 
  • Large ends 8"-11"
  • Small ends 6"- 10" 
  • Logs are all 20+feet, so I will buck (cut) them to lengths desired by customer.
  • Customer does not help me at all; so, I do it alone or hire a helper.
  • Logs are stacked in two piles. One larger (40 logs) and one small, 10 logs). End-to-end, so move is about 25 feet.
  • No log handling equipment on site, besides my can't hook.
  • He is 30 minutes away, 22 miles. 

Customer Desires:

  • As many posts as possible - 4x4, 6x6, and 6x8
  • He emphasized desire for 10 - 12'x6"x8" if possible
  • Any non post will be 1x6
  • He wants nothing short of 8ft length
  • If a log would give one 12ft 6x8 or two 8ft 6x6, he preferes 12foot 6x8.

Some sample measurements ofa couple logs: 

  • 11" at large end/8" at small end 24ft. Also 8" at 19ft.
  • 10" at large end/6" at 19ft.
  • 9" at large end/6.5" at 12ft.

Below are some pics. The fresh cut pics are from a year ago. The others, I took Saturday.

Thank you. 

-Mike



 


 



 

 


 

 

 

Southside

Did he mention having clean sides or is wane / defects OK? Being cedar it will have taper and surprises that come at all the wrong places. If he is OK with more of a potential rustic look to some of the posts your options are greater on posts. Not saying all will end up that way, but as long as he understands the nature of cedar is all. 
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

WV Sawmiller

   Also remember not to split the pith or the posts will bow. So you will either get 1, 3 or 5 posts out of a log - never 2 or 4. 

    I assume you are charging by the hour or by the job. BTW - do you want to take bets that before the job is over he doesn't find an extra log or two he forgot or finally got around to cutting while you were sawing? That is normally the case. 
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

doc henderson

you can plan ahead and even mark with crayon on the small ends.  I agree if rustic ok you might have a bark inclusion or rounded edge.  I would start with the biggest size post and biggest logs, they can always have an edge trimmed if they have to be "perfect".  It is almost nice to have them available to make sure you are meeting their expectations or have properly reduced their expectations.  As well if their expectations are high, they will have less final product.  would be nice to see a plan or an idea of the building or structure they are going to be used for.  Very cool!
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

terrifictimbersllc

All those 6x6 or 6x8 are going to have white sapwood at the edges.Find out if he's expecting to use these outdoors, that's going to rot off more quickly for sure,
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

Magicman

After all of the above questions are satisfactorily answered and a sawing contract is signed, I would saw the job, hourly rate.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

YellowHammer

From your description of the job, it will take much more time handling the logs than actually sawing.  For me, I would try to turn every log into a post of some kind, 4 cuts and done.  

If he's wanting you to custom buck every log to maximize yield, then take side wood, edge that to to 6 inches, then cut a post, and repeat 50 times, on a board foot rate, well, it will be a learning experience, that's for sure.  I charge by the bdft when I am milling, but if a customer asks me to fire up my chainsaw for any appreciable time, I charge the same virtual hourly rate I would if I had been making sawdust with my mill.  The way I looked at it, why should I be running a chainsaw for free when it was keeping me from making money from sawing in the mill?  So bdft rate on the milling and hourly on the chainsaw and grunt work, or as others say, straight hourly.  

One of my most memorable, frustrating and kind of fun jobs I ever had was when I agreed sight unseen on a paying job where a guy was going to bring a "few" cedar logs to me, to mill for him.  All he wanted was a "bunch of posts."  So here he comes a few days layer with a big diesel truck, two full flatbed 30 foot hay hauler trailers hooked together in tandem, loaded to the gills with pencil sized cedar.  It looked like a freight train coming down the road.  Oh baby, what did I get myself into? Let's just say it was a learning experience for me, and among other things, and I learned real fast how to do my best imitation of the "Hurdle Mill Boogie" with my band mill.  

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pBYPYUAOEkI
 

YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Southside

Personally I prefer to saw by the BF for several reasons but cedar and quarter sawing is always hourly unless it's the one odd log in a job.  
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

AZ_builder

Holy crap!! That video reminds me of a fast food place cutting fries on a busy night!!

MikeySP

Thank you gents for all this helpful advice! I have sent him a note and await the response.

Woah... What if we put a nitros oxide system on my LT35, could I keep up with that sawmill in the video?  :D.

WVSawmiller, what did you mean by: "you will either get 1, 3 or 5 posts out of a log - never 2 or 4. "?
Were you speaking in jest?:) If not, I do not understand how this is?

Doc, I think you have a really good point about having the customer there and expectations. Unfortunately, he will not be there. If this goes forward, I will really work out those details and I will also put forward the point YellowHammer had of four cuts and done, as cost is an issue for him.

Doc, I am not sure selecting larger logs first is an option since I will have no log handling equipment on site other than the cant hook. I do not think he is going to want to pay for me to bring my Skidsteer out.

I prefer to do BF rather than hourly for my initial jobs if possible. Since he wants low budget and posts as a primary, and these logs are small, I am going to suggest what Yellow Hammer said as his best budget approach. Once we work out the acceptability of wane (defects) and the white sapwood/outer edge that terriffictimbers mentioned, this would probably be best for him.

If he goes this route, and he very well may, I will charge a board foot price while sawing, and an hourly rate while log handling.

BTW, Skidsteer is running again. My mechanic buddy diagnosed it in seconds over the Phone as moisture got into some contacts, perhaps computer or fuse box. I did not have time to mess with it, but a day later, when the sun and wind dried it all out well, started right up. Kind of sad that a piece of heavy equipment would be affected by the rain. Yesterday, I picked up a bunch of good used metal roofing (under 10 cents a sq ft) for our barn project. Hopefully in the next few months, I will have weather protection for my stuff.

-Mike

WV Sawmiller

   I was not joking. If the log is big enough you can center the pith say in a 4X4 and get two more from each side if an oval shaped log or 4 more (2 from each side and one above and one below the center one) if more perfectly round. Think of an oversized 6X12 or 12X12
                         
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Like this - sorry I'm not better at adding a drawing
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

Banjo picker

In other words, it usually never turns out good to split a log right down the middle.  Your timbers will almost always twist or bow badly.  You might be tempted to do that with a log in the 12 inch or so range if you were cutting 4 x4 s.  You would be better served to cut something else out of that log, as all 4 timbers you cut would have a great chance of bowing.  Banjo
Never explain, your friends don't need it, and your enemies won't believe you any way.

Tom the Sawyer

"Unfortunately, he will not be there"


 

With a preponderance of small logs, minimal experience, and no log moving equipment, the client not being there is a potential problem.  If the client were there at the beginning of day one, even for a short period of time, they could see what you are doing, and what the logs are likely to yield; it would go a long way towards both parties being satisfied at the end of the day.  After sawing a couple of posts from smaller logs, expectations may change, and certainly be more realistic.  
07 TK B-20, Custom log arch, 20' trailer w/log loading arch, F350 flatbed dually dump.  Piggy-back forklift.  LS tractor w/FEL, Bobcat S250 w/grapple, Stihl 025C 16", Husky 372XP 24/30" bars, Grizzly 20" planer, Nyle L200M DH kiln.
If you call and my wife says, "He's sawin logs", I ain't snoring.

MikeySP

Thank you Tom. What do you think of cut one log, send photo of log and umber, get feedback before proceeding to next log? If not, I will only agree to do it on a day he can be there... assuming this still happens.  Thank you all very much for keeping me straight.

-Mike

WV Sawmiller

   I'm with Tom. Tell the customer you are concerned he will not like the results and can only do the job if he is there at least at the start to kick off the project. You can select a good representative sample of the various type of logs and saw them and show him and come to terms on his needs and expectations. I have often found my customers were more tolerant than I was. They knew what they were using the lumber for and if a little wane was okay and preferable to trimming and wasting lumber that was fine for their needs. 
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

YellowHammer

YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

alan gage

Quote from: MikeySP on March 19, 2019, 08:12:53 AMI will have no log handling equipment on site other than the cant hook. I do not think he is going to want to pay for me to bring my Skidsteer out......I will charge a board foot price while sawing, and an hourly rate while log handling.
Be careful that you don't end up giving away a bunch of free time. It seems like it might be cheaper to pay for a skid loader to be on-site rather than paying you to muscle logs around. It might be different if the logs were already cut to length and staged so you could just roll them up to the mill but you've got a lot of labor other than sawing. 

Alan
Timberking B-16, a few chainsaws from small to large, and a Bobcat 873 Skidloader.

MikeySP

Thank you men! I will make it so he is on site initially, if we lean forward.

On another note, I was contacted by a gentleman and this appeared the most promising discussion I have had. He has some

Walnut, Black Locust, and hickory
Felled six months ago
12-13 feet long
16-18" on large end with maybe one 22"
Also has several stumps about 30 inches long, by 30 inches wide.
Wants it cut into cants, slabs, and some 2"+/- for future use.

He will be there and he ready to help.
Originally, he was going to sell the logs, but no one would pick them up and he did not have way to load/transport.


Questions:

How many days/hours would you guesstimate a job like this will take?

I have 4 degree blades that are sharp and all my 10 degree blades are dull.

Thoughts on hickory and black locust cut six months ago?

Also, since those stumps are so short, I don't think I will be able to use my toeboards and they have some significant diameter change. How would you level the pith on such a short log?

Any other wisdom thoughts?

-Mike

 

 

Southside

Figure on 100 BF / hour of production if you have an off bearer at first and have decent logs in the size range you describe. As for the short logs you would have to fix up a jig to keep them in place so you can clamp them. You can probably rig up a wedge on the jig to deal with taper but I don't think it's worth it for something that short. 

Use your 4's under those conditions and have a good lube mixture in the tank as you will need it and may need to use more than normal. 

Otherwise saw away Mike, saw away.   :D
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

WV Sawmiller

   The 4's are correct IMHO for the hickory and will work fine for the others as well. The walnut and locust will be fine and the hickory should be okay - I cut some that had been down a couple years and still real solid.

  I'm fine with SL's swag of 100 bf/hr for a new sawyer. Won't hurt if things click and you finish sooner. The 30" wide stumps are going to slow you down. Why not have him cut them down with a chainsaw to about 24" X 30" before you get there? If not I'd bill that as hourly rate. I'm assuming those are walnut stumps he wants cut. Not sure why he'd be cutting hickory and locust stumps but I'd cut what he asks.

  I think the rails are 28" on the LT35 at the clamp. If so you may get by without the jig SL mentioned on the bottom but you will need them on the side away from the clamp and that is further going to eat up some of your width of cut. Check that first and throw a piece of firewood or so that long on at home as a test before you go to the customer site. yes, the toeboards are out for that short so I'd just use some 4/4 scraps as shims to adjust for diameter differences on those pieces. Good luck.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

WDH

I would not fool with the stumps.  Not worth it, and it is easy to tear up something on the mill. You can ask me how I know this :).  

Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

WV Sawmiller

Danny,

   If the stumps are walnut they may be good for gunstocks and such I'm thinking. I can't see the value of locust or hickory.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

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