Echo CS-590

[funbaker10]

Hello everyone,

I just purchased an Echo CS-590 from my local dealer this past week.  I've been reading a bit on this forum and it sounds like this saw has a pretty high resistance muffler so many folks have done a "muffler mod" to make it flow better.  I also read something about the saw running lean in stock form, I didn't catch if that was lean at certain RPMs or throughout the operating range. 

Anyhow, I will be cutting around 4-6 cords per year of firewood.  I needs a decent saw that cuts fast enough but more than anything I want a saw that is as bulletproof and reliable as possible.  The 5 year warranty and the generally positive comments about the CS-590 definately influenced my decision. 
So, back to this lean thing.  Is the CS-590, as it is right out of the box, in its most reliable form?  The lean comments concern me as I've seen what snowmobile engines do when run too lean.  Should I be making any adjustments before I start using this new saw or should I be good to go just like it is?  Again, if I sacrifice a little cutting speed for more reliablility I will take that trade!!

Thanks in advance for any shared thoughts.
Chad

[7sleeper]

Lean or not, no one can tell you in advance! There is a trend to lean out the saws now a days in classic two stroke engines. But how your saw is who knows?

What do I do? I pull the limiters off of all my new saws and readjust, even if I find out they were correct after all.

Further to be honest, I seldom modify my mufflers because, even if I cut a little more than you, I am seldom in such a hurry to finish. And although the cutting speed differences are definately there, cutting the wood is overall the shortest part in firewood processing. Further having a sharp chain and good cutting technique will further influence your speed much more than a faster chainsaw.

7

[ladylake]

On any new saw except the auto tune ones (not perfect either from what I've read) pull the caps and tune. On the low turn it in until it hesitates when you pull the throttle then back out until it accelerates good.  On the high turn it out until the engine slows down quite a bit when held wide open for a second or 2, then find a big log or block and gradually turn it back in until it cuts the fastest, not revs the fastest.  If you get too lean it will bog easy when you push on the saw some, make sure to use a sharp chain.  The reason to open the high up quite a bit when you start tuning is the rev limiter will fool you into thinking it's real rich when it's actually lean. My last new Echo CS500 was tuned good when I bought it from a dealer, maybe a good dealer that actually pulled the caps and tuned it.   Steve
 

[SawTroll]

More "hearsay"!   :

Not a single failure of the Autotune has ever been proven to happen - it is about people not caring to read the important part of the manual, and a few bad carbs (happens to any saw model now and then - but people tend to blame the AT when the saw has it).

[SawTroll]

The Echo 590 is the cheapest 60cc alternative (of 3) from a rather substandard brand, so don't expect too much of it!   ;)

[Andyshine77]

Opening up the muffler isn't just about improving cutting speed, it also reduces engine temperature, this obviously increases engine life. On the CS-590 I believe simply opening up the deflector will improve flow a bit.

http://youtu.be/pahXpy6Pbms

Most two cycle OPE engines are coming tuned lean from the factory these days. Contrary to what ST said, I've ran a few AT saws that needed a little help as well, mostly on the low speed end. I don't care if it's the carb's fault or not, as the carb is part of the AT system and it still needed work. When it comes to the CS-590 I found mine to be lean on both the high and low side. I removed the limiters and opened both needles about 1/4 of a turn counterclockwise. That's not an exact tuning, but it's in the ballpark if you don't know exactly what you're doing.

http://youtu.be/A6pdV-SxWl0       

[ladylake]

More  and "hearsay"!   :

Not a single failure of the Autotune has ever been proven to hapen - it is about people not caring to read the important part of the manual, and a few bad carbs (happens to any saw model now and then - but people tend to blame the AT when the saw has it).

  So your allowed to use hearsay about saws and I'm not.    Steve

[chester_tree _farmah]

U work for a swedish saw company ST? :-) let the guy enjoy his new toy. What did your dealer tell u about the carb setting something funbaker?

[Andyshine77]

U work for a swedish saw company ST? :-) let the guy enjoy his new toy. What did your dealer tell u about the carb setting something funbaker?

That's just ST being himself, no harm done.

Who cares what the dealer said, they're normally wrong anyway.

[ladylake]

Sounds like you trust dealers about as much as me, good ones are few and far apart.  Steve

[chester_tree _farmah]

I am just curious what the dealer said if he asked them.

[funbaker10]

I guess I didn't specifically ask my dealer about carb adjustments when I bought the saw.  I was very clear with him when I asked him if the saw was, completely, all ready to go....simply put 50:1 gas and bar oil in and go cut and he said yes.  He actually said they would fill it up with gas and bar oil in the back and it would be completely ready to go.  I wish I would have asked him if they make any adjustments to the carbs normally or if they just send the saws out with the factory settings.  Maybe I'll stop by and have that discussion just to find out.  The dealer I purchased the saw from also carries Husquvarna saws, and although he seemed somewhat knowledgable, I'm pretty confident some of you folks know the ins and outs of the CS-590 model better than him.  I was more picking his brain on reliability and trying to get a feel from him which saw he thought was better, the Echo CS-590 or the Husky 455 rancher.  Don't worry Husky lovers, he did suggest an XP series Husky saw.  I'd love one but I'm just a common guy so price always has to be factored in.  He did state that they never, or very rarely see any of the Echo saws come back (as in broken or warranty issues).  However, he also mentioned they sell many more Husky Rancher series saws than Echos so you'd expect to see more of them come back for repairs. 

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions.

[ladylake]

A Echo CS590 is miles ahead of a 455 Rancher in everything.    Steve

[shinnlinger]

Troll,

A guy buys a new saw and you just have to rain on his parade.   The 562xp is a better saw, but it is also 2x the money of a 590tw.  If I used a saw all day, everyday, I would want your husky, but if I only had to put up 5 cord a year, I would prefer the Echo because I could put my money elsewhere.   

Sometimes the best saw for you, isn't the best saw for me.  Please try to respect that.   

Dave

[Andyshine77]

Chad, you're saw will likely run okay as is. The issue is long tern durability and performance. A really good dealer will in fact start the saw, warm it up and tune the carb by ear and with a tachometer. This however takes time and knowledge, which many dealers and their employes often lack. It's a good sign your dealer started the saw and made sure it ran.

Have fun with the saw, keep the chain sharp and fuel fresh.

     

[funbaker10]

Andyshine,
Thanks for the videos of the muffler mod and the carb tuning limiter cap removal/mod.  I'm no carb/engine guru so pardon my simple simon questions but I don't want to botch any tuning I do on my brand new saw.  To make sure I understand correctly.  Under (or maybe behind is the better word) the limiter caps is an adjustment screw and the cap is Echo's way of simply not letting you get at the adjustment screw, correct?  Next, you mention the Lo side adjustment and Hi side adjustment. From watching the video it looks like one adjustment screw is on the air intake side of the saw and the other is forward of that (toward the chain of the saw).  which is the lo side adjustment and which is the hi side adjustment?  Lastly, the lo side adjustment affects the fuel/air ratio in the low rpm/low throttle position range and the hi adjustment affects the ratio at full throttle (or mid to full throttle)?

[jargo432]

When I bought my CS-590 the dealer told me to run 2 tanks of fuel through it and bring it back and he would check it.  When I took it back he asked if wanted to come back to the shop to see how he checked it, and of course I did.  He first warmed it up for a couple of minutes then pulled out a meter (made by echo) that tells the RPMs when revved up.  I can't remember the number we were looking for, but it was right where it was supposed to be.  He told me if the saw was too lean the RPMs would show it.  He told me I could bring it back as often as I wanted to have it checked.  (I figured once a year would be good)

Also while I was there he had me fill out a warranty card.  Since I had it checked out, if anything goes wrong it will be covered. 

They wouldn't give a 5 year warranty if the saw wasn't a good one or they wouldn't make any money.  You've got a great saw, be safe and have fun.

[CTYank]

Chainsaws really run only in three modes: idle, off-idle accelerating and WOT. Their carbs' crudity reflect the simplicity of their "operating envelope". The bad things happen, quickly, if mixture is too lean @WOT under load. Not really much leaner than optimum, but POOF!

Looking at the two mixture needles, the L is always closer to the cylinder than the H.

When the H is adjusted right, engine rpm under load will be maxed, as will be the power output, and engine durability. (Also, it's not a bad idea to feed it a bit more oil in the mix too, like 40:1 vice 50:1.)

When H is optimum, engine will 2-stroke at best-power rpm @WOT under load; lighten load a bit and it will start to 4-stroke. Many vids on YouTube on those indicators. You might quiz dealer about his understanding of how to adjust H mixture. If he says "by tach" only, he's a lazy incompetent hack. Such adjustment is only adequate for finding the ballpark, nothing to crow about, though that's common.

There are lots of stories out there about how dealers waltz around warranty coverage. Certainly not only Echo dealers. Not many ethical dealers anyhow, so don't trust them with anything much, certainly not for 5 years.

[Andyshine77]

Andyshine,
Thanks for the videos of the muffler mod and the carb tuning limiter cap removal/mod.  I'm no carb/engine guru so pardon my simple simon questions but I don't want to botch any tuning I do on my brand new saw.  To make sure I understand correctly.  Under (or maybe behind is the better word) the limiter caps is an adjustment screw and the cap is Echo's way of simply not letting you get at the adjustment screw, correct?  Next, you mention the Lo side adjustment and Hi side adjustment. From watching the video it looks like one adjustment screw is on the air intake side of the saw and the other is forward of that (toward the chain of the saw).  which is the lo side adjustment and which is the hi side adjustment?  Lastly, the lo side adjustment affects the fuel/air ratio in the low rpm/low throttle position range and the hi adjustment affects the ratio at full throttle (or mid to full throttle)?

I totally understand not wanting to mess up your new saw. The plastic caps are there to prevent the needles from moving more than one turn. This keeps the saw emissions compliant, which in most cases means too lean. Many manufactures use this method to prevent the needles from turning 360. The H screw is one closest to the air filter, the one closest to the intake boot is the L screw. The black grommet with the screwdriver holes, is also marked H, L and LA.

These carbs work correctly in two positions, idle and full throttle, nothing in between. The low speed screw effects the mixture at idle, and provides fuel for a smooth and quick transition from idle to full throttle. Yes the High screw provides the bulk of fuel at full throttle. However both needles provide fuel at both idle and full throttle to some extent. So when you make a radical change to one needle, the other will need adjustment as well. The LA screw simply adjusts the throttle position. Changes in air densities effects how much fuel the saw will require as well.

If you decide to remove the caps, I can walk you the tuning process. Make sure you read the manual that came with the saw, it has good information for someone new to chainsaws. 

[funbaker10]

It sure is a bit frustrating that a the saws can't leave the factory in the properly tuned condiiton.  If anything, you would think the factory would error on the side of tuning them conservatively rich as opposed to cutting edge (or actually too) lean.  The only two reasons I could see doing that would be 1) environmental regs/emmissions requirements require the cutting edge lean setting, or 2) they would be happy if your saw scores a piston/cylinder after a few years (preferably soon after warranty expires) so you are forced to buy a new saw!  If it's enviromental regs driven, how silly as burning down and replacing saws due to excessively lean conditions is anything but environmentally friendly (think of all the embedded energy/pollution that already went into manufacturing the saw).  Also, it really makes you wonder how safe your autotune saw is.  Is there any adjustment you can make to the autotune setting to make it conservatively safe (rich) vs lean?  Any reason to believe the autotune system doesn't target the same cutting edge lean condition the standard saws seem to come with?  Is there any manual adjustment a person can make to make the autotune more conservative instead of cutting edge lean?

It sure sounds like I need to tear into my saw a bit to, at a minimum, get the limiter caps off and ensure the tuning is good. 

Thanks for all the feedback thus far.  Happy cutting.
Chad

[Andyshine77]

It's all about emissions. The problem isn't the tuning from the factory, that's a guessing game really. You see it's impossible to tune the carb at the factory for the environment the saw will be used in. Air densities constantly change do to temperature fluctuations or elevation. The issue is you have to delete the limiters on the needles before you can properly tune the carb. Back in the day all you needed to tune the engine was a small screwdriver. Learning how to tune your handheld equipment is a must IMHO.

Most AT saws burn cleaner to begin with, do to advancements in 2 cycle engine design. Plus the tune will always be spot on, never too rich or lean. The AT saws I've ran, did very well.

[beenthere]

1) environmental regs/emmissions requirements require the cutting edge lean setting

And per the announcements yesterday, it is about to get worse.
Until EPA realizes (which they won't) that they are the cause of our economy going further into the dumps, we will spiral down further and faster. IMO

Cutting emmisions in half but burning twice as much, does little to nothing to reduce carbon footprint. IMO

[Andyshine77]

Weather or not we like anything the EPA does, historically the economy grows when new environmental laws are passed. Anytime you push new technology and innovation, you put people to work. At the same time the big companies hate this because they have to invest in R&D and hire more people. Which in reality is a good thing overall, but they don't to see that. We need to get rid of the lobbyists that push special interests like farm subsidies, AKA Ethanol, yet attack the little guys, like ope manufactures instead.

Anyway let's get back on tract here. Deleting the limiters is very easy on the 590. Maybe I'll make a video on tuning.

[currantvt]

Well said Andy, thanks.

[luvmexfood]

Moved to general thread. Didn't want to highjack this one.