Railroad ties (again?)

[KnotBB]

9 mar 08
Anybody know what the current market price is for softwood ties on the west coast?

Just got a response to a query to UPRR asking me what I wanted for my ties!  I want $50 but I'll talk about it!  Isn't that backwards?

Any help much appreciated.

Steve

[Ron Wenrich]

That is backwards from how Eat Coast buyers do it.  They generally quote a price, with shipping.  They also grade the ties (usually not too hard), then cut a check on the spot.  East Coast oak is around $20.  If you get $50, then you have a really good future in marketing.   :D

[ironstumper]

I'm assuming you guys are refering to a 4 foot piece?

[KnotBB]

I got a quote this last summer and it was based on board feet.  What's the board feet in a tie?  A 9' paid about 4% more than an 8'.  8' was $460/m and 9' was $480/m.
My figures say: width (in inches)/12 x depth (in inches) x length (in feet) = bdf

and thus:
7 x 9 x 8'       =  42 bdf
7 x 9 x 8 1/2 =  44.62
7 x 9 x 9'       =  47.25
or every foot of a 7" x 9" = 5.25 bdf

Does that sound right or are we getting into some weird way to measure that I don't know aout?

[Ron Wenrich]

That's the way we always figured it.  I always like to know what the unit price is.  Then I can figure if a log is better to saw into ties or to chase the grade.  In many cases, you're better off cutting a tie than to chase grade.  Softwoods might be different, since they buy no softwoods here in the east.

Tie buyers like to quote in $/Mbf so you can compare to blocking prices.  Too many guys look at the price and figure that 2 Common pays as good, so why not whack it into boards?  Too often you'll lose money.

[WH_Conley]

Only unit the local buyers are giving right now is a 9' tie is $19.50 for oak, $18.00 for mixed. Have to do the math yourself to see which is more money, ties or pallet. If you wind with a 12' log in the tie pile, it brings as good as cants, after you figure the cull rate.

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

It seems to me that I remember that the general thought on tie sawing
from all the experts the last time around (which I ain't) went something like this:
:P                             :P                             :P                             :P
With a 12-14" log (little end) you go for a few jacket boards of FAS, or #1Common,
or Select, or F1F (first and second one side - which is a high-falootin way of still
being a Select, but with the size and width of a true FAS).  So you peel off the top
quality boards and sort them and save them and sell them separate.

The objective then, is to spend the least labor on the log overall by cutting the tie,
but to only invest the other sawing time in the very highest quality boards of the side.

Best of both worlds - minimal saw time, maximum return.   That is also the
opinion on WoodWeb, as I recall.

Izzattit?   :

[Dave Shepard]

What's a woodweb? Is that one of those webs with the giant mean looking brown spiders in the corner of the sawmill with big chunks of wood in the web?


Dave

[KnotBB]

I'm looking at cutting loges from 12" to 30" into ties.  figure I can get about 7 tiles out of a 30" with a lot of side boards.  Price is an issue and I might have to buy a bigger saw so I need pricing before  I get in over my head.

[Ron Wenrich]

The math goes something like this.  You have 2 options, either saw a tie, or saw down to a pallet cant.  If you saw all boards, it has to be all clear wood with the defect in a center board, which is hard to do.

Figure your tie price is $20.  If you saw to a 4x6 as an option, and pallet price is $350/Mbf, then that piec is worth $5.60.  It also means you have to make $14.40 on the remaining 4 boards.  They will yield about 18 bf.  So, those remaining boards need to average 80¢/bf.

That doesn't sound hard, but if one board is a 2 Com @ 45¢, then the other 3 need to average 90¢.  F1F red oak is about that price.  One pallet board blows it all away.

As for cutting 7 ties out of one log, I'd check with the tie buyer.  Some companies don't want that much side wood in ties.  They have a tendency to twist more than a boxed heart.

[WH_Conley]

Every tie has to have a heart here.

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

KnotBB mentions  $460 per thousand for shorter ties
                    and  $480 per thousand for 9' ties.  (That would make a 9' tie be worth $22.68)

Is that representative for most areas?

[Ron Wenrich]

My understanding is that 9' ties are used west of the Mississippi.  8'6" ties are the standard in the east and they pay the same price/tie for 8'6" and 9'.  Some guys leave them long to gain some in the lumber area. 

[KnotBB]

Assuming a guy had a hydralic band saw such as a LT40, a loader of some kind with a driver and all the soft wood logs you needed what would be a good figure for number of ties produced per hour or per 7 hour day?  Log size 12" to 17"+  No concern for the side boards, take care of them later.

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

That's a good question.  I don't know.  Bibby might have a handle on that,
but he doesn't let those outer board get away from him - or so I have read.

Another good question:  How much wasted motion will be involved to
rehandle slabs & flitches later to get boards out of them?  When that slab or flitch comes off
the mill, if it is immediately processed into its final form, it is far more efficient. (Of
course, that may not count, if the slabs go to chipping or charcoal, etc.)

Scrag mills would run circles ( no pun intended ) around anything else, IF you
are not worrying at all with the side wood.  Now debarked logs, plus scrags, plus
resaw, plus edgers... now you are talking some tie production and some board
production to boot!

[Ohio_Bill]

The best  I have done in a day is 40 7by 9,s on my lt 40  .  They get real heavey the longer the day goes on .

[KnotBB]

I'll bet they do get heavy, is that by yourself? 
What support equipment do you have to move the ties off the mill?

Steve

[donny hochstetler]

sounds like a lot of work. how long were these ties, how many guys, what kind of support equipment? I just ordered a swing mill, and am looking to produce switch ties,7x9x24ft. I have been trying to figure out how many I could produce in a day, considering I have the right logs and support equipment. I thought if I could cut 12-15 I could do very well.

[Ron Wenrich]

I'm running an automatic mill, and we can do 50 or so switch ties in a day.  That's with a 5 man crew.  We also have a few that will be rejects which are cut into blocking.  There are a lot of problems you will have.

First off, slabs are long and heavy.  Ours go right to the chipper, so they don't have to get handled at all.  Same goes for the sawdust.

We cut all our boards so they can be sorted into various lengths.  We sell our boards in lengths from 4-16'.  They are also easier to handle.

You will probably get some springing in your logs.  I get it and I have 4 dogs holding the log in against the headblocks.  I'm running 500 PSI on the hydraulics.

Lastly, your switch tie is going to weigh about 750 lbs.  We don't touch ours other than to roll it off the green chain.  We put 10 in a pack before we band it up.

It takes me about 5-8 minutes to cut a switch tie log.  I have a lot of waiting time to allow things to get out of the way from a safety standpoint.  You're talking about sawing your log up in 30-45 minutes.  How much help are you planning to have and what type of support equipment?

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

Donny,

The point Ron makes about log "spring" is very important, but there is a
trick I have used a few times to help.  This helps overcome the problem which
arises from the fact that most swinger operations have no means of forcibly
holding  the log in place.  I am not sure you can do the step marked by the asterisk
on your mill.

Skim off the top of the log. (cut an optional board?)
Take of the left bark.  (cut an optional board?)
Drop down to what will be the bottom of beam (tie) and do a horizontal cut about 5" into the log.
*Before coming back vertical, move over the width of the beam (tie) plus a half, then pull back.
Finally, In your case here, you might as well go to the double cut mode and finish your lower horizontal
      cut from the right hand side of the log.
( My last cut to free the beam (tie) can be from the left, using kerf wedges as I go.  The reason for this
    noted difference is that Donny will have 8.5" max cut, while I can go 10.25".)
Normally, even though I am using this stress relieving technique, I still cut 1/2" oversize,
      then do a sizing trim cut to straighten things out.

[Ohio_Bill]

Most days are 30 some   7by 9 ,s   105"   { 8 1/2 ft}     I have one person helping me and a farm tractor with a loader .
Logs are mainley  13 to 15 dia. White Oak.

[justice]

I haven't reached a million board feet yet but, I saw about 120, 8'6", 7x9's a day ( 8hrs) without boards (hickory), about 12" diameter logs with an Lt70 and two men. A normal day (8hrs) same mill and men- about 14" logs and lumber i usally get 60- 80 a day, and let the fitches pile up unless I have an extra man.  And sold every slab sawed last year at $10 a p/u load, and they load. Although, I am having trouble selling my r/w 3 common 4/4 1/8 heavy.