Hand cutting with forwarder how many of you do it?

[logman81]

How many of you hand cut using a forwarder? How does it compare to cable skidder. What type of wood do you cut? Hard wood, soft wood , firewood. What are the advantages and disadvantages?

[brendonv]

We have a tree farmer c5f forwarder and a jd grapple skidder.  I always run the skidder instead, much faster for us.  The forwarder you can only cut to a certain length to not tip off the back of the bunks.  Skidder i can pull 4-8 full length trees.  We are cutting and skidding hardwood firewood, no sawlogs at all.  Forwarder is nice in the end, to pick up all the tiny stuff, but really not worth it for us.  I brought it to the new landing today, its been sitting since last year, though we do only cut in the winter. 

[thecfarm]

I see you are looking for a forwarder. This is from the guy that logs for me. He had a forwarder,4 cyl,worked ok on kinda level ground,not enough power to load it full on hills. He sold it and brought a 6 cyl. I had some pine here and he had to use a skidder to get them to level ground. Someone on here can start quoting hp better than I can. This is what he told me and I heard it more than once from him.

[danabg]

If your doing a lot of sorting a porter is much easier,you can separate the wood while you cut it then pick it up.If you have muddy conditions and have to buck wood at a landing after you have skidded it out its a real pain,much easier to do it in the woods and haul it out with the porter.If you can sell wood longlength a skidder would be better,but can't sell it that way around here anymore it's mostly cut to length.I've used both but If Ihad to choose I'd definitely go with a forwarder.

[logman81]

Thanks guys seems their is mixed opinions . I do know of one guy around here that uses a iron mule and hand cuts. I've seen a few of his jobs and they come out very good. I like how the wood can be kept clean and sorted out nice. Also have the benefit of loading truck and trailers. I think less of a landing is needed with the and no skid trails.

[brendonv]

Ya the forwarder we have is gutless.  4cyl cummins.  Hills are a drag, not enough gooooo

[thecfarm]

I forgot to say too,on one job they could not load the forwarder full,they had to take ½-¾ loads. That is time and time is money. A forwarder does have it good points. I was quite impressed by the trails. You can have a smaller landing, can sort easier.

[logman81]

Very interesting.

[thecfarm]

And another idea. They cut one of my pines on a side hill. I saw where the tree was fell,but no forwarder trail beside it.They kept the forwarder in the trail,grabbed on to the tree and brought it out to the trailer and kept bucking the tree into logs. Probably slow,but that was the only one they did it too.

[BargeMonkey]

 I have an older 230 4 wheeler long bunk, its handy sometimes and sometimes you just cant get it in places. If you can get decent enough roads and can bunch to the forwarder its a nicer way to go. You will put less wood out with a forwarder, but it cuts a few more machines out of the equation. If your going to buy one, get a 6-8 wheeler. The small 4 wheel machines are ok but tend to be very tippy. Personally I think a forwarder does a nicer job than a skidder but its all job dependent. I get about 4 cord / 2200 feet depending on species and size, to give you an idea, and with a serco 4000 loader she will pick anything I want within reason.

[craigc]

I run a 6 wheel Rottne SMV with a Hultdins grapple saw.  We cut hardwoods.  I would not trade it for any skidder.  When I come out of the woods in 2 trips I have over a semi load.  I think it does a much better job than skidding plus you don't need much of a landing.  The combination of the forwarder and grapple saw combo makes for a versatile machine.

[logman81]

Hey guys lots of good info! The one I'm thinking about is a four wheel long bunk with a barko 40 loader.

[thecfarm]

Watch the hp

This is what he had


 



 

[keen]

I have a cable skidder and a forwarder. If I am producing mill bought timber I am usually required to tree length the trees and mark them out on the landing and then buck them. On my own jobs I like running forwarder. For me I think a guy can get better production. We mainly cut hard wood that averages 250 bf+ of logs and cut the tops for firewood or pulp. It sure is nice bucking the logs where the tree sits instead of dragging it through the dirt then trying to buck it. A guy can go out and get the trees down and bucked for the day and relax a bit while running forwarder. With a cable skidder you don't ever get much of a break. If you have fairly flat ground I think a forwarder is the way to go. If your going to do much pulp you will want to go with a bypass bucket eventually. That's going to be my next purchase.

[logman81]

Thanks keen. So if you had a choice of a forwarder or cable skidder what would you all chose? My jobs are all my own, very from type of wood. Most are timber stand improvements by selective cutting. I cut both saw logs and firewood and I hand cut it.

[beenthere]

For what you are doing, I'd think going with the rig member Bill_M has would be about as good and trouble free as you can get for your money.

[logman81]

No I'd rather have a true forwarder plus those combos are big bucks. The forwarder I'm talking about is less then half the cost. I like the timberjack but I'm tire of fighting with chokers and constantly sharpening chains.

[mad murdock]

we cut and bunched for our forwarder for years, then bought a JD450C outfitted with a Morbark shear, and upped production considerably.  Since you got the Jack, I would cinsider keeping it, if it were me, and adding a forwarder.  working with just a forwarder will limit the jobs you can effectively do, IMO.  You are doing firewood from what I recall LM81, a bucket saw might work well for chunking firewood into a truck for deliveries.  FWIW.

[logman81]

I'm still battling issues with the TJ still, mostly the engine still smoking, I've worked it as I was told to and the problem hasn't gone away. I cut both firewood and high grade saw logs both hard and soft.

[JakeG]

Which engine, what color smoke and when does it smoke?

[logman81]

 353 DT bluish gray smoke does it all the time.

[logman81]

Tried to up load vid but wouldn't let me.

[mad murdock]

An older (4 wheel) forwarder is ok for short wood, pulp, bolts and veneer, but not so good with random length saw logs, bunk not long enough, plus it is easy to overload the axle over the bunk when moving random lenght logs, so if not approached within the confinces of the machines capacity, you will be replacing rear planetaries, axles, sun gears, and rear end parts.  We learned the hard way on that, even with a larger machine, (Franklin 132 Pack-a-back), which was a 3 cord machine, you can still overdo it easy hauling longer logs.  If you are after increasing production, a newer forwarder (6-8 wheels), or a grapple skidder are what you will want to look at, IMO.  Problem with a newer multi-axles forwarder is $$$ to get into one, a grapple skidder will be less money, and if you need a loader to sort, you could look at a loader trailer, or something along those lines.

[JakeG]

353 DT bluish gray smoke does it all the time.

You said you've done some work to it, what all has been done? I don't have experience with the 353 but several members here do!

[beenthere]

Tried to up load vid but wouldn't let me.

Did you upload the video onto YouTube first?

Then just copy the url of the link to it on YouTube into your post.

[logman81]

I haven't done any thing to the motor except change a oil pan gasket. This forwarder is longer something like a sixteen ft bed. The longest logs the mill that I sell to is 15' so not to long.

[mad murdock]

sounds like with a bunk that long, it will work for you then.   What engine does it have?

[logman81]

It has a 353 DT

[treeslayer2003]

log man, did your skidder use a lot of oil? what I'm getting at is just because it smokes or uses a little oil don't mean you can't use it. you won't make it much worse as long as ya keep oil in it.

[thecfarm]

I had an old ford truck that way. That critter smoked,but ran great.

[Woodboogah]

Keep oil in it and run it.  If it performs fine then no big deal.  Good luck

[logman81]

No doesn't use much at all, it's a fuel control issue . Something to do with injector. It runs but doesn't run quite like it should it sputters a bit. I have a vid but it won't let me up load it on here.

[Ken]

After all the looking, finding and getting the tj ready to work it's time to put it to the test.  Keep checking the oil and run it like you stole it.  You are not going to hurt it and if you're like the rest of us a little cash flow would be good.  If's the motor is bad you will know soon enough.  If not looks like a great machine. 

[logman81]

I have run it and it isn't getting better, I've worked it for a whole day pulling wood and it still does it. I think it's time to get a mechanic to take a look. But I think a forwarder would be really nice to have, more of a do all machine.

[Ed_K]

 My 4-53 has 260 hrs on a complete rebuild,it smokes,only clears up when wide open and pulling.
Run it.

[logman81]

Run it even though it's not running right?

[JakeG]

Injection pump, injector or governor issue maybe. Maybe even sucking air into the fuel system.

I had a 6bta that smoked like crazy, same color as yours. Sent the injectors to an injector shop, $180 later they were all reset to factory pop pressure and the engine ran great. 400hp great... Of course, that was after a little pump tweaking.

[snowstorm]

i had a 671 years ago that ran good pulled good but it sounded uneven. just didnt sound like a 671 should. the snap ring that holds the cam flower in had come out. used a die grinder with a worn out cut off wheel and re cut the grouve for the snap ring and all was good

[logman81]

Detroits don't have injection pumps only lift pump. It's an injector problem I'm pretty sure. I'm going to ask a local diesel mechanic and see what he says.

[David-L]

logman keep running it as long as it has oil psi you can't hurt it i don't think. Did you run some atf and get some good fuel into it. really has to get screamin and up to heat.

                                                David l

[logman81]

Yes on all accounts !

[logman81]

So called on the forwarder still has it. But I can't check it out till after Saturday as their was a death in his family.

[logman81]

Just a quick question, it has a barko 40 loader are they any good?

[mad murdock]

Barko made good loaders, don't know if they got swallowed up by someone else, or if they are still "Barko".

[logman81]

Thanks mad Murdock I'm sure someone must know about them and can give more insight maybe.

[treeslayer2003]

I think barko still around.... I hope, I been lookin at a 275 b live heel.

[logman81]

Yup they are, they make loader and forwarders now to .

[BargeMonkey]

Barko is still around, and you can get alot of the parts aftermarket also. Ive got a 160 barko loader with a 20ft CTR decksaw and once you go to a slasher theres no going back. 50 gallon of fuel a week and a mountain of wood behind you.  8)

[logman81]

Can any tell me more about the barko loaders specifically the model 40? I also just looked at a wood lot with a forester yesterday and I asked him about if a forwarder would allow me to get more jobs? He said most likely, most of the land owners would rather a forwarder instead of a cable skidder because they are lighter on the land. He also has another big lot with nice timber to cut if I'm interested and would recommend me. This is one more deciding factor to consider. If I want more steady work I'm probably going to have to make the change.

[jd540b]

logman, I cut with a hardy trailer/forwarder and then with an iron mule. Hand cutting with just a forwarder, you can do a beautiful job but stump cutting is VERY time consuming-the real benefit is being able to pile/sort on the yard in my opinion.  I used to yard to the forwarder in the woods with the skidder, then when the forwarder was full-I went to the yard with it.  The forwarder never left the main trail.  Now I cut with just the skidder and have an excavator with log bucket on it in the yard-best combo I have found (for me).  Also, forwarders can be pretty high maint.  and old used ones tend to have had a lot of life sucked out of them.  If you get one, keep the skidder too, again -just my opinion. 

[logman81]

Thanks for the info jd540 I may go with the forwarder I have not looked at it yet. I wish I could keep the skidders and get the forwarder but can't afford both. I'm only a one man show and can only run one machine at a time. I do have my tractor with the skidding grapple so I could yard wood out to main trails with that and keep the forwarder on the main trail. I understand about older equipment my TJ is old but is in good shape. I believe if you are easy and carful with the older stuff it will work just fine for a small crew. I first got started in the business with a '49 JD 40 crawler with a winch that was old but did the job it had to do.

[chep]

To the original question.

I hand cut for a Rottne Rapid 6 wheel forwarder. We work in some pretty wild terrain, and I think that a good operator and a good machine can go just about anywhere.
It is a different style of cutting. You have to learn to cross your trail with wood. Herringbone is what I call it. If a trail runs down the middle, picture your trees crossing the trails like X's, Make sense.  Trying to keep the tops out of the trail but the product reachable.
  It can easily turn into a nightmare.

But the thing no one has mentioned yet is safety! No in and out of cab. No getting behind or in front of machine to hook chokers. Pull down snags, move logs, put in crossings. The list goes on. If you have the right terrain for it, and the right wood. If all your cutting is pecker pole firewood, then it is a headache to pick up, but in mixed wood or large sawtimber it is a dream!  go for it. No bumper trees as well! Well, right now I am learning to run the thing and I have created more than a few bumper trees learning my size...
 

[logman81]

Chep, you have some good points that is why I'm leaning more towards making the switch. Big safety advantage, no fighting cable and chokers, wood stays clean, sorting the logs would be quicker and easier and a forester that said he would send more work my way if I had one. Only a few down sides that I see is trucking is going to be more expensive, can't haul it on a tag along and there is a little more maintenance involved. A small price to pay for the advantages you gain I think. Most of the lots that I cut are a mix of small diameter firewood and saw logs.

[logman81]

 

  

  

   here's a few pics of the type of logs and terrain that I cut mostly.

[logman81]

Are chains on the tires of a forwarder as important to have as on a skidder? This forwarder from the pics has pretty good tread on the tires.

[craigc]

Chep,  You are right cutting for a forwarder is total different.  We flag our trails before we cut .  We don't lay them on the trail but try angle them off of the trail.  With the grapple saw we can pull the log to us a process at the stump that way we don't have to drive "down" the tree to pick it up.  When people watch a forwarder they think it is slow,  but a forwarder is not in a rush to get out of the woods like a skidder.  Instead you are trying to get maximum wood out on each load.  What is nice also is no bucking logs after a day of cutting. Instead you can cut all day, come out of the woods the truck is loaded and  landing is clean. 

[treeslayer2003]

logman, that looks about like here. the main reason I never tried one is I think it would be stuck a lot, another guy tried an old franklin packerback and that was the big problem, it just wouldn't stay up on most jobs.

[craigc]

Is that a Solo?

[logman81]

No a jonsered  630 super.

[timberlinetree]

 

  We in the process of buying a forwarder just owe a little  bit more. We bought it to run logs to the landing,sort logs,make nice piles of wood so truckers are happy,keep the wood clean and to corduroy wet spots and load trailers. Hills and off the skid trail are not part of the plan. Some times the landings are small around here and people complain about messes.leaving the chunks of wood in the woods and just having ready to go nice piles of logs is our goal. In New England I can't see just having a 4 wheel forwarder(6 or 8 wheel driffrent story I would think)and not a skidder to feed it. Tree length skidding has worked well but Marcia and I decided that the added forwarder will be better plus our 401k consists only of iron. . Good luck.

[logman81]

Nice timberlinetree, looks to be a 170 franklin. Is it a single bunk or double can't tell in pic. Most of the guys around me that have forwarders only have them and no other machine and do very well. I think you just have to have a good plan and a good system. I looking into the forwarder for the very same reason you are.

[timberlinetree]

Thanks Logman81. It's actually a 1987 Franklin 132 and the bunks have been extended. We can't wait to get it! Miss swinging logs around.... We sold our log truck a few years back Good luck in your searching - There are a lot of Tree Farmer porters up in Canada!

[logman81]

Ok thanks I wasn't sure what model. The one interested in id a. 1978 508 pettibone mountain goat edition, has a barko  40 loader and a 353 DT and is a long bunk. Having a bit of trouble getting the guy to return my phone call so I can check it out. I need to look at it soon to see if it's any good as I have a guy that might be interested in my TJ.

[barbender]

I don't see how you could make it work with a forwarder hand cutting unless you have big timber. I realize you New England guys have some of that nice wood where it could work, I think thinning in nice hardwood stands is where that set up could shine. We don't have much of that type of wood, other than SE Mn where we have nice hardwoods more like PA or Ohio than the rest of MN. Up in northern MN, it's pulpwood country and a forwarder works behind a processor, period. Some one man cable skidder/chainsaw shows also have a tandem axle truck with a loader, they can clean up, sort, and pile on the landing and do firewood deliveries etc.

[barbender]

Another thing Logman, I saw a video of a Pettibone forwarder like you're talking about, you have to get out and stand on a platform to run the loader, nothing like the more modern forwarders where you spin the seat around to run the loader. You're not going to have any easier time getting parts for a Pettibone forwarder than you did for the Pettibone skidder you had.

[logman81]

Well guys I have a buyer for my skidder if I want to sell it . He came to look at my TJ and said he will buy it. I said that I have to look at the forwarder first, told him if it's junk I'm keeping my TJ. Now if I can only get ahold of this guy!

[logman81]

I don't mined if it is that way standing at the controls no real big deal to me. Parts can be a little hard to find but the only parts that I would be worried about would be probably axels and maybe transfer case, barko is still in business so parts for the loader can most likely be had.  It's a component machine for the most part. And I know a good machine shop to make parts if I needed. Nothing set in stone though I may look at it and it could be total junk! It hard to make decision when a the forester tells you that he you give you more lots if you had one.

[barbender]

Please understand, I'm not saying you have a bad idea, either Logman. If I were thinning high value hardwood lots I would be inclined towards a forwarder myself. Just have your eyes wide open ;)

[logman81]

Thanks barbender, I understand there are a lot of things that are making me think about going with a forwarder. It wood save on the amount of chain sharpening, cleaner wood happier mills with better pricing, less ground disturbance , neater piles you know the rest.

[barbender]

Yep, I know what you mean. It all kind of depends on the wood you have available. I can see where if you get out of the nice hardwood (or big softwoods) production would really stink. One thing with forwarders (even the old ones), they unfortunately seem to fetch a way higher price than a comparable skidder.

[logman81]

Yeah the guy still hasn't gotten Back to me so I don't know what's going on. I'm going to try once more tomorrow if he doesn't get back to me I'm probably just going to keep the jack and finish up this currant job and make some $$.

[timberlinetree]

Might be a good idea to check the lift capacity on the machine. Don't want to stress out a machine that might be made for pulp wood. Good luck!

[David-L]

logman, think of maintenance also when buying something old. unless it's been gone through you could spend alot of time turning wrenches. Still think for getting material to the landing a cable skidder is the best for production, Especially for TSI work where they don't want you running over the future crop of trees.
I have a buddy with a C5 Tree farmer that has a Duetz that he is selling and I know he has put alot!!! of money into it. He is older and bought a 610 short bunk Jack as he needed heat. He's still chopping and is in his late sixties maybe more. his motto for a good start for the day is " first tree down before daybreak and the rest just happens". Let me know and I will give you his #, call me to check in.

                                David l

[logman81]

Timberlinetree the barko 40 is rated at  3200lbs. That is something to test out for sure. David I understand what your saying, most of the crews around here have gone to grapple and forwarders. Cable skidders are probably a little more productive but do a lot of damage to the forest floor dragging logs through it. It would also make sorting logs out by grade, species, length ect. And it would solve my problem with not having a way to load peoples trucks and trailers with firewood logs. Have a lot of guys that will buy tree length off my jobs but they don't have a way to load it and I don't either as of right now. So that might boost income if I could do that.

[David-L]

Log man , that C5 I mentioned is a forwarder. He hasn't advertised it yet and is in town here. I am around fixing today, give me a call and I will tell you about this machine.

                                          David l

[chevytaHOE5674]

There is/was (not sure if he is still around) a local guy around here that hand cuts and has a forwarder. He has a winch mounted at the base of the loader right at the front of the bunk the cable runs under the bunk and through a fairlead at the back of the machine. He can use the winch to drag trees up hills or out of wet areas where the forwarder can operate. He can also use it to unstick himself or a truck, or pull himself backwards up a hill.

[leeroyjd]

Hey Logman,picking up hand cut logs with a forwarder is usually fine.Small firewood poles/pulp is very slow unless it is a heavy cut In my opinion.
  If you are deciding whether or not to buy a fowarder just do what I did:cut the rest of your job to length in the woods so you have to get one.
I've been told that four wheelers on wet ground can be worse than skidders.  There was a 546 Valmet for sale in The Northern Logger that had fire damage-maybe an option?

[logman81]

A c5 forwarder might be good. Don't know much about the air cooled motors. Probably a little more modern and easier to get parts for.

[MJD]

You could look 4 a log dray and pull with the jack, then you could hall your firewood and load peoples trucks/trailers (probably wont load semi due to height). When I looked at forwarders the ones in my $ range($20000) were so tired it would nickel and dime ya to death (thats why there for sale). To buy one that you have to get out of the cab to load would put you in the same boat as pulling a log dray. jmho.

[Corley5]

Most crews that aren't CTL mechanized up here that work in hardwood have a cable machine for hills and a forwarder for the rest of the job.  Wood is pulled off hillsides to a point the forwarder can get to it or if the skids are short taken to the landing and decked with the forwarder.  Foresters prefer forwarders and many sales specify CTL at the stump and nothing longer than 16' can be drug out on the ground.  Truckers don't like loading out of a pile that's been pushed up with a blade.  We worked with an Iron Mule for a few years and then went to a C4 forwarder.  It's slow when the pulp isn't short stacked but I'd rather wear out the loader than mine or someone else's back.  A by pass bucket is a must     

[Corley5]

Some of those old Bones didn't have much of a canopy over the operator.

[logman81]

Corley5 what motor does your c4 have?

[logman81]

Thanks guys for all your help and info, I'm just going to hang on to the skidder . Got a gut feeling that something is not right with the forwarder. I did see a gafner dray sitting in someone's front yard when I went to look at a wood lot. May knock on their door and ask about it . Could have the best of both with that.

[Corley5]

4 cylinder Deutz. 

[logman81]

Thanks corley5 I'm sticking with my jack , the prices for some of theses forwarders are out of this world they must think you make money in logging or something. Talked to the forester on the new job he said a cable skidder will be ok to use so I got this job and more if I want.

[jd540b]

logman, "stick with the devil you know".   

[logman81]

Yup I plan to, but I may take a took at the dray and see what the story is with it .

[mad murdock]

The Gafner Loader drays were good machines in the day.  The loaders are pretty straight forward, high wear items are the rotator (grapple), and the main mast bearings, and turning rack and pinion.  a good upgrade if you do get it would be a nice bypass grapple, and a more modern rotator for the grapple.  The original Ganer torator was simple, but seals needed replaced on a regular basis, plus  it would rotate like 270 deg.  If you spun it to the stops with a grapple full of wood, you could easily break the main shaft in it.

[logman81]

Thanks madmurdock seems like it would be handy to have.

[logman81]

Could set one up with a power pack so it could be towed with skidder or tractor.