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Hydro Ax questions ??

Started by starr, December 27, 2009, 10:02:35 PM

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starr

Hi everyone, I'm new to this site and have a question about Hydro Ax 411's and 511's. Does anyone know if using shears causes more hydraulic failures such as broken hoses or pump problems than using a sawhead? The 411 has me wondering about the tree sizes it would be able to handle safely,  and the 511 has me wondering if the difference in fuel consumption would be worth it.  I'm looking at machines in the 1995-1999 age group. If anyone has experience or knowledge with either of these machines I would be greatly thankful.

I'm glad I found this site, and thanks to everyone.


Gary_C

I have a 311B with both a shear head and a bar saw head. Even though I've never used the shear head, I doubt there is any difference in maintenance cost associated with the different styles of heads other than a bar saw head will need bars and chains regularly. And the 3/4 pitch bars and chains are not cheap, but neither are those shear knives.

But I'm not sure what you would want to use a shear head for anymore other than biomass cutting. They are certainly faster and easier to use, up to a certain diameter, but they will shatter the butts of logs and make them unsuitable for most markets today.

That 311 B is for sale by the way.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

motohed

Quote from: Gary_C on December 28, 2009, 12:56:27 AM
I have a 311B with both a shear head and a bar saw head. Even though I've never used the shear head, I doubt there is any difference in maintenance cost associated with the different styles of heads other than a bar saw head will need bars and chains regularly. And the 3/4 pitch bars and chains are not cheap, but neither are those shear knives.

But I'm not sure what you would want to use a shear head for anymore other than biomass cutting. They are certainly faster and easier to use, up to a certain diameter, but they will shatter the butts of logs and make them unsuitable for most markets today.

That 311 B is for sale by the way.

I have to agree with Gary on the shear head , versus saw head . I use a shear head on firewood trees only , as the damage they create to the but log makes them junk for saw timber . The shear head may have a little less maintainence than a saw head . That being said I will be in the market for a saw head when the ecconomy starts getting better .

Meadows Miller

Gday

And Welcome to the forum Starr  ;) ;D  ;D ;D 8) 8) 8)

I have a freind with one of each in that age group and hes still running them fulltime on line clearing work and T1 pulpwood with a stroke delimber following up as garry and moto said both have their pros and cons i myself would use shears if i was in under 12"dia max working in pulp but if i was working it in anything larger or hardwoods id go with a saw head myself

Regards Chris 
4TH Generation Timbergetter

starr

Hi to all,
,
I just realized I had marked female in the gender colum. That was a mistake   ;D. Thank God I caught that before someone started gettin fresh and the wife found out.  Coulda got ugly here :D :D

Gary C, motohead and Chris....I'm glad i asked because it's going to be used for both pulp and sawtimber. My brother told me he had heard the shears do a bit of damage, but wasn't sure how bad. I was kind of leaning towards the sawhead  because most of the trees are hardwood between 12" and 22".   I'm also looking more towards the 511 since there is very little level ground and the 411 may not have power needed. I don't know this for sure but it's something keeps crossing my mind.   

chevytaHOE5674

a sheer head you basically scrap the butt log (generally the most valuable log in the tree) as they split and splinter.

Ron Scott

Ditto! to the above comments and the sawhead for the size hardwoods you plan to cut.
~Ron

Gary_C

You should be aware that some pulp mills will not take shear cut wood because of the shattering and splintering. They also do not like to take storm wrecked trees for the same reason.

Quote from: starr on December 28, 2009, 06:42:38 PM
  I'm also looking more towards the 511 since there is very little level ground and the 411 may not have power needed. I don't know this for sure but it's something keeps crossing my mind.  

You do not necessarily need more power to cut big hardwoods. A 311 will cut any tree you may have. The added horsepower may give you more speed of cutting and it certainly will give you more weight and perhaps width. And on unlevel ground that may give you more stability. But a bigger and wider machine is more difficult to get around thru a stand. Unless you are clearcutting and then it makes no difference.

Most any operator of a Hydro Ax or any other fixed head machine would be lying if they told you they had never come close to tipping the machine over. I've had the back wheels off the ground and a few times the wheels on one side off the ground. There is definately a "pucker factor" when running one of those machines. And even though I have exceeded the capacity of that 311 with a 24 inch diameter, 60 foot tall red oak tree that I cut and picked up off the stump, I never did tip mine over. But I know someone that has tipped a similiar Hydro Ax twice while cutting 80 foot aspen and he said it was no big thing. Just tipped it back up and went again. You have to learn, sometimes the hard way what you can do and not do. And one of the things not to do is drive away with a 80 ft tree in the grip.

The guy I bought mine from some years ago had moved up to a cut to length harvester and at first he was using the Hydro Ax to cut trees in front of the harvester because it was faster. Said he could easily cut 60-75 cords of aspen per day.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Ron Scott

I've seen a few "tip overs". Usually by new and/or inexperienced operaters. One was scared so bad, that she wouldn't get on the machine anymore and went back to running the skidder.
~Ron

PAFaller

Starr, I see you are a fellow PA resident. Depending on where you are at I would opt away from the shear head unless you are doing biomass chipping. Even the bigger pulp mills shy away from sheared wood. When they put sheared wood into the debarkers and then chip the stem it generates too many 'needle chips' as they call them. These long narrow chips don't process correctly in the digester and create problems. It may not seem like a lot to you and me, but if you lose even a few ounces of material that way in every stick you can see how that would equate to tons of material for the mill at the end of the year. Biomass plants are much less fussy because much of their material goes through a hog there anyway.
It ain't easy...

IMOWOOD

The fellow i woke with runs an older 411 with a shear and we have never had many proablems with it blowing hoses besides a few from normal wear and tear.  It mostly cuts the smaller pulp/fire wood stuff and any thing larger or out of reach is hand chopped.  But we have sent quite a few loads of red pine saw logs that were cut with it and we never had any complaints.  Most of the damage is done in the first 3" of the log so its in the trim any way, any hard wood worth a saw log is usually too big for it any way.  I have heard that the hot saws use more fuel which i totaly belive because the saw is always running but i doubt a bar saw would use much more than the shear. . . .. I would say if your into more quality than quanity get a bar saw but if you into low grade get a shear or hot saw. . . .hot saws can do some nasty cuts too if the bits arent in too good of shape.   

starr

Thanks to everyone

I'm convinced the sawhead is the way to go because most of it is oak and maple and at least half usually is sawtimber.

My experience has been with my brothers tj 240b which is a great machine.  but occasionally when pulling a load of oak  or a good size load uphill sometimes have to drop the load and winch it up. I'm not sure but I believe the 240b and the hydro 411 are pretty comparable as far as horsepower and this is what I have been basing my comparasion on. I'm figuring that the hydro will lose some power due to the cutterhead, as Imowood pointed out with fuel usage.

I have almost rolled the 240 a couple of times, once on a steep sidehill with a load, and once in deep snow going across a large flat rock that I didn't know was there with a snowdrift blown level. They are my 2 memorables. In The sidehill incident I saw my brothers eyes getting real big so I knew it was close. definetely gets the heart going. My nephew rolled it a couple of years ago and hasn't worked in logging since.

starr

Ed_K

 How far up to butt will the damage go on say a 14" black birch? It seems i have to cut 3 to 6 ft off of them due to sweep in black-yellow birch and maple. How agile are hydro-ax machines on 30-40 deg slopes?
Ed K

Meadows Miller

Starr i reckon you chose the rite way to go Mate  ;) ;D ;D ;D 8) 8) 8)

I dont reckon you have seen a rollover untill you have seen the aftermath of a 518 cat thats been fliped end for end 18 times down the front of a 40 deg slope  :o :o :o :) :) that happend when i was about 13 and we where up looking at a block of d/fir next to it the day after with the contractor who sid it happend when the skidder driver doped his turn on the landing and was giving the chaser some slak and didnt notice that he was still moving forward towards the 20' drop off the edge of the landing  :o :)

she went of laded vertical and because the winch wasnt in gear it kept running out as she went into the death flip as rickky called it when it got upto full tilt it was clearing 20'of air and making it agood 50-60' of ground    ;) the driver survived with both arms broken and one leg and afew cracked ribs as in his own words I wasnt Lettn go of that Bloody Jesus Handel  ;) there are still bitsa cat spreadout over that hillside to this day the insureance co came ot and just picked up the main bit that had made it the 200 yards to the bottom Blade ,belly plates ,doors and other things that wernt needed on its last big trip where just left where they lay  ;) :D :D :D

Ive been lucky that the only spill ive had was stockpiling chips when the pile gaveway and the loader grasefully slid down the side of the pile to the bottom i was outa there pretty dang quick tho  ;) :D :D ;D ;D

Chris
4TH Generation Timbergetter

Gary_C

Ed, the Hydro Ax machines will go just about anywhere a four wheeled rubber tired machine will go. I've worked mine in four feet of snow and it is slow but it will waddle thru most anything.

What you really have to watch out for on any fixed head (no side rotation) machine is cutting trees with side tilt. If you cut a big one with side tilt, it could tip you over sideways and you could not get it out of your grip. Smaller trees are not as much a problem but it's difficult to cut trees that are not straight up and down in the head. You do need to get a good grip on that tree or it will slip down and set on your saw.

So as long as you can work straight up and down slopes you can cut a lot of trees.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

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