I had a forestor look at my timber

[Rod]

And he said I have between 1500-2000 board feet per ac.When I bought it in 97 I had 0.His crew is coming out this week to do a timber crusie

[SwampDonkey]

Rod:

What were you intending to do with your lot? Space it, pre-commercial? 2000 board feet is about 4 cord/acre. If its hardwood be sure and not thin it when its too short, < 20 feet tall, too much suckering and regrowth.

I've been working in 14 year old pre-commercial thinning, now ready for a commercial thinning. The age of the trees is around 35 years. There is 36 m^2/ha basal area, which translates into 32 cords/acre, roughly. The site is being monitored for its response to the thinning, root growth and levels of atmospheric CO2.

Good luck with your cruise results. Grow'm big and tall. ;)

[Rod]

SwampDonkey,thats1500-2000 DBH saw timber,and saw timber is going for about $250m average.Now the way I've got it figured,the timber is growing at about160 board feet a year per ac.I was thinking I might sale out to the coal or timber companys.

[SwampDonkey]

Rod:

Ok, I keep forgetting you guys talk saw timber, not including pulp. Up here our hardwood is over 70 % pulp due to high grading on woodlots and old growth on government land. Hardwood management is a new concept up here. Saw timber goes for CDN $250-650/thousand up here, soft maple and beech are the lower priced. Good luck with your timber sale.

[Rod]

SwampDonkey,is stumpage prices?

A few weeks ago their was an auction down the road on some timber and I thought they gave way to much for it.

Anyway the little saw mill was the high bidder but the big sawmills were bidding high too.

its only 50 ac and it went for $62,000 :ofor what looked like to me were pole trees

[Rod]

SwampDonkey,what I ment by a small sawmill is the owner cuts about 6 million board feet a year.He was bidding against guys like coastal lumber

http://www.coastallumber.com/Default.htm

and allegheny wood products

http://www.alleghenywood.com/

I got a feeling timber is on the rise,but I could be wron tho ;D

[SwampDonkey]

They pay $50-60,000 up here for stumpage on 50 acres. I've cruised quite of few of'm. ;) If you can buy one cheaper its been clearcut or the seller knows nothing about the woods business, or he's an old timer with 1940's figures in his head. My grandfather figured 50 acres of hardwood land was only worth $1000 and he paid $300 for 200 acres in the 1930's.

[Rod]

I was using the stumpage price history of stumpage prices


http://www.wvforestry.com/Stumpage%20Prices.PDF

[SwampDonkey]

I was looking at your stumpage report, and I've seen others from the states as well. But, I can't for the life of me figure why red oak is worth more then white oak. White oak is superior wood. As far as white oak is concerned , we only have bur oak up here which is endangered in my region. Your stumpage rates have climbed for your sawlogs over the last few years, just like they have here. Most folks offer half the mill delivered price for stumpage on sawlogs and veneer up here.

Our marketing Boards in the province of New Brunswick maintain prices and changes. At our board the website has a search by mill name or species.

http://www.cvwpa.ca

There is also a valueable resource with the Maritime Lumber Bureau which gives weekly/monthy market updates. You have to be a member, which costs around $400 a year I think. It gives info for the New England states as well.

http://www.mlb.ca/

[Sawyerfortyish]

SwampDonkey I agree 100% about the white oak i'll take it over red anyday. Its cut more solid higher up in the tree than red. But here there getting crazy on price. I've heard of a buck a foot on red oak on the stump. Not just for one job but i'm hearing of it from a couple directions. With the cost of fuel and trucking I can't see how they can come out of it making money.

[SwampDonkey]

Sawyerfortish:

Are they high grading for veneer wood or something? I suspect there is alot of competition for the wood as well. I also suspect that the number of landowners that participate in the forestry sector are declining to. This is making cut-troat competition between contractors. The numbers of producers are slowly declining here. Once alot of them reach retirement there are going to be alot fewer. Most folks around, just don't depend that heavily on income from the woods. Take for example at our marketing board, 80 % of those that cut wood annually harvest less than 300 cords of wood. I think over the last few years about 430 producers have been harvesting wood. Its been holding at that level for at least 10 years now, but took a big drop a few years before. There are around 4000 woodlot owners in the two counties, 45,000 province-wide.

Pretty soon all our lumber and paper will be coming from Asia as those countries can produce it cheaper. In turn they will lift themselves out of poverty as long as some dictator or unknown doesn't keep wages below the poverty line.

Maybe we need a stock market crash to renew ourselves. ;)

[Rod]

SwampDonkey I don't know why red oak sales for a higher price then white oak. I'd say just wait a while and people will change their minds were they will like white oak ;D

[Gary_C]

As far as the price difference between white and red oak, the white oak is too hard to work for both commercial furniture people and hobby woodworkers. A old timer I know that sells to walk in woodworkers told about the guy that came in and asked for red oak and he convinced him to buy white oak because it was better and cheaper. When the guy came back for more wood, he asked him how the white oak worked out and he said "good, but this time I want some red oak."

Red oak stumpage is getting out of hand for price. A recent sale here went for 80 cents on the stump for 100,000 bdft and it was a scaled sale, no overruns.

[Ron Wenrich]

Its all supply and demand.  I remember when white oak was a lot higher than red oak.  Red oak was considered junk wood.  But, the demand for white oak was coming from Europe.  Now, the Europeans have enough of their own, and demand for white oak has dropped.

In my area, red oak cuts much better grade.  The veneer grade also holds out much better.  Those catfaces on white oak lead to too much defect.  My best white oak comes from chestnut oak.  When growing in a good location, there is really good grade in those logs.

1500-2000 bf/acre indicates you have a stand of small sawtimber.  Now is not the time to harvest those trees.  Now is the time to let them grow.  A medium-sized sawtimber stand will average more in the 6-7 Mbf/acre range.  A lot would depend on site.

There is no veneer value in a small tree, and very limited grade value.  You need a tree that that is 14" dib to make a veneer or #1 sawlog.  That takes a 16" dbh tree.  A #2 sawlog comes from a 14" dbh tree.  If you can't get the grade at the mill, then they aren't going to give you much on the stump.

If $250/Mbf sounds like a lot to you, then you should really get jacked up on the $450-500 that they get around here.  But, they aren't cutting the guts out of small sawtimber stands at those prices.  They are cutting mixed hardwoods with an average dbh of 17-18".  Anything smaller, and the prices go down drastically.

You can figure your trees will add a diameter class about every 10 years.  Just as you make a lot of money when the pulpwood crosses into the sawtimber, you make a lot when sawtimber crosses into veneer.  Just be careful that you aren't killing you best milkers.

[Rod]

I understand what your saying Ron.

[SwampDonkey]

That makes sense Ron, as far as red vs white oak and price. I couldn't make any experienced comparisons between the two species as far as sawing for grade. No white oak up here, 'cept bur. I was gonna say red oak was junk wood cause its strictly pulpwood here unless someone uses a portable mill on site for his own use or gets it from a mill yard in small quantities sorted out. Don't come across very much of it unless you harvest along the lower Saint John or Miramachi Rivers. In which case its primarily from small woodlots in farming communities here. I have seen some nice mixed stands of oak and maple, but they are scattered.  I'm trying to baby some on the woodlot, but I'll be pushing up daisies long before they are ready for the knife. ;) It took the marketing board a while to convince producers that sorting out logs pays, versus sending it as pulp. That's because of the games sawmills had a history of playing with producers. And the price margins were not that great either, at first. Producers where saying it was worth more as firewood than sawlogs. Just like farming potatoes and selling to the big processors. ;)

[Sawyerfortyish]

SwampDonkey one job i'm talking about is in NY. The trees wasn't that good but as you said it was a cut throat job a lot of bidders. Some guys will beat up there equipment work all week long in the woods for a couple hundred $$. Not me theres always another job someplace.
  As far as red vs white oak give me red oak logs to sell and white or rock oak to saw. I can blow away any local logger as far as bidding on timber but when I get up against another mill it gets very competitive

[Oldtimer]

Very interesting reading here guys.

I am about to start a 50 acre Red Oak lot. It is being run by a forester. I had told the landowner that for the time we talked about between harvests (20-25 years), the low quality overall, and the fact she needs $$, I'd cut around 60,000' including the pallet. She wanted the forester to oversee the job, and he convinced her to cut every 10-15 years, and only cut 30,000' now. I dis-agree that a 10-15 year cycle is right for a red oak lot. I feel it should be 20-30 years. But, she wants it his way, and wants me to cut it. I am getting $225 to cut, skid, buck, and truck the Veneer grades, $180 for #1 & #2 sawlogs.

Get this. The forester told me a straight job (tri-axle) should haul 5000' of Red Oak easy. I told him it will carry 3500' and no more legally. And I should know, I have sent it out with a few loads of oak before. He also says the trucker is getting way too much to truck at 50 per. He says 37 is about right. Also, he has never logged here in NH, just a summer in Washington state. Wow.

[Ron Wenrich]

When I was doing field work, I would never tell a logger how to do his work.  I would work with him and I never had any problems.

You're in colder climates and probably have a slower growth rate on your oaks.  We used to try to go for thinnings every 10-15 years.  The biggest problem with thinnings is the damage done by skidding.  

From a forest standpoint, log length skidding does the least amount of damage to the residual stand.  It costs more, but i would prefer to see that.

We would also knock the stocking back to about 70 sq ft/acre.  That leaves the stand fully stocked.  It doesn't encourage too much reproduction, but I can go back in and thin in another 15 years.  Thinnings should take out the junk and leave crop trees.  

One thing to remember about foresters, most of them talk about footage in International, and loggers talk in Doyle.  I still think that any forester that is managing timber should spend at least 6 months in a mill and 6 months setting chokers or cutting, just to round out the experience.   ;)

[SwampDonkey]

I agree with Ron as to the purpose of the initial thinning(s) and the experience of the forester. I'm also wondering if there was an operating plan on paper that was reviewed by all parties. I like to walk the lot with the logger to see if he is able to do what we want done. I want him to think about it for awhile and not get all gung-ho and find out he can't make money. I'de like to think that an operating plan is subject to change, but there has to be some constraint used by the forester. If I'm looking after a lot I'm in charge because the landowner hired me for that job. Trust me there are very few jobs up here that require a forester because the motive for most landowners is $$. I also know a few loggers that provide sustainable forestry and don't need anyone looking over their shoulders. I can always tell from the first few phrases from a guy's mouth whether or not we can work together. If I sense we can't than I look elsewhere.

cheers

[Oldtimer]

When I was doing field work, I would never tell a logger how to do his work.  I would work with him and I never had any problems.

You're in colder climates and probably have a slower growth rate on your oaks.  We used to try to go for thinnings every 10-15 years.  The biggest problem with thinnings is the damage done by skidding.  

From a forest standpoint, log length skidding does the least amount of damage to the residual stand.  It costs more, but i would prefer to see that.

We would also knock the stocking back to about 70 sq ft/acre.  That leaves the stand fully stocked.  It doesn't encourage too much reproduction, but I can go back in and thin in another 15 years.  Thinnings should take out the junk and leave crop trees.  

One thing to remember about foresters, most of them talk about footage in International, and loggers talk in Doyle.  I still think that any forester that is managing timber should spend at least 6 months in a mill and 6 months setting chokers or cutting, just to round out the experience.   ;)

The scale is in international here. The lot I mentioned was cut hard  and high graded about 30 years ago.

You say log length. You mean no longer than 32' ? Two 16" logs max? There is a clause in the contract that says the forester can designate 32' when needed.
I always walk a lot several times, and try to do it at least once on a sunny day. A dark day will make you over-estimate the volume in a stand. I choose my roads and bump trees first, and look for areas I want to avoid like wet spots, high quality young growth, and stone walls.
I have worked in a Sappi chipper, two planer mills (one was an IP white pine mill, a powerline trimming co, a residential tree service, and now logging straight for 8 years.

Sorry for hijacking this post,I'm done.

[Sawyerfortyish]

Ron I to would like to see all foresters work in a sawmill for a period of time and then go cut trees scaled by another forester and try to get close in footage to what they say is there. Then maybe they would see that third log they try to sell me in an oak tree most of the time is just firewood and should not even be included in a footage scale.
 I really don't like International scale you have to be very careful when sawing it to get the footage out of a log that it's scaled for. When you buy on doyle scale I always got about 10% overrun when sawing and that made up for a bad log now and again that I always seemed to have.

[SwampDonkey]

The thing about doyle though is it favors the buyer on smaller logs and comes closer to International with diameters above 14 inches.

We use Bangor Rule sometimes, from Maine, and New Brunswick log rule. The New Brunswick scale favors the buyer.

My cruises always give the stumpage buyer some leaway on volume. Never has a lot been cut that had less than my cruise volume. This is because I use 1 site class (volume curve) shorter than the potential for that site. If I use the actual its very close, but does not leave the buyer with much latitude on his bid price. I had 2 fellows eye ball it and said there can't be that much volume there. They cut the lots and it was a hair more volume on both sites. :D :D As far as hardwood sawlogs, I only count on the butt log in board footage and 60 % of the tree goes into the pulpwood formula (cords). My log volumes always work out more when cut because some trees have more than that butt log, but its a bonus to the producer. If the run is pretty good than the landowner will get a better stumpage price. Generally those lots are cleared, which I have nothing to do with.  On some lots the arrangement is 1/2 the mill delivered price for logs and veneer for stumpage, which works out better for the landowner. On woodlots up here your not getting rich on cutting hardwood sawlogs or veneer, its pretty minuscual volumes. Anything above 14 inches is a culvert, 95% of the time. Our sawlog markets are between 8" and 14", veneer is 10" and up. Even had the rare 19 or 20" top on a sugar maple with 1/3 heart and the buyers reject the log. They just aren't interested. You look at the logs and veneer in the yard of the Marketing Board and they are baby trees compared to yours down south, and probably ours are 90 - 150 years old. In fact I know they are.

[Ron Wenrich]

32' sawlogs can work, but it depends on terrain, time of year and the operator.  Some guys can't even drive through the woods without damaging something.

The problems most foresters have with cruising hardwoods is they have that 8" top log driven into their head.  Most trees don't have a log that small, and those that do just ain't worth cutting.  But, they'll cruise that little log and add to their tally.  Mills that chase those 8" logs will go broke.

I've only had one guy complain about a cruise.  He only got a 3% overrun.  He expected 30%, since this is what his foresters were getting.  

[SwampDonkey]

That guy shoulda been greatful he was getting some accurate cruising for a change. 8)

My overruns are no more than 10 %. On the west coast when we cruised, the accuracy was such that we were within 3 % of the scale at the dry land sort (average). I don't remember that being a requirement though. But our blocks were check cruised quite often by the Ministry for accuracy and proper calls on defect and quality. It kept the Ministry of Forest happy as well as the forest company. In the 80's up there, it was a free for all with massive 200+ ha clearcuts on those mountains. They are the only province I know that publishes a cruising manual including pathology ID and quality guidelines. Here in New Brunswick I've seen some pretty wacky cruising methods, and their volumes reflect it.