Felling up hill

[Kingmt]

I have a tree I want to harvest that is just a few feet down from the top of the hill. Below it is trees I don't want to damage & I really don't want to fight it back up the hill. I've never tried taking one up hill before & was wondering how to go about it or if it is to dangerous.

It is probably about a 60 degree grade or better so it is about straight up & down.There is enough room on top of the hill for it to land but the trunk of the tree will hit the hill before it is all the way down. It is a White Oak about 20" across. The limbs are pretty well balanced & the tree is very straight so it should be easy to get it to go any direction I chose.

I'd assume thin hinge to let it snap as soon as the trunk touches if I were to fell it that way.

If it isn't apparent Until recently I haven't fell many trees. When I did firewood I usually cut what was already down or I cut trees in the way & didn't care about trees on the hill side or getting dirt in the bark. Now that I'm sawing I'm a little more picky.

[Pine Ridge]

Felling trees uphill on steep ground is in my opinion one of the most dangerous scenarios a faller can face, tree coming off the stump and butt coming at you so fast you don't have time to get out of the way, or anywhere to go to get out of the way. I fell one like your describing a long time ago, i walked away without a scratch, but i'll never forget it, i'd fall it downhill, sidehill, or i'd leave it, just my opinion.

[beenthere]

Or fall it at an angle between straight up hill and sidehill. Just so the top doesn't hang over the crest.
Can cable/chain it up to pull it in the direction you want it to go.

But if you are not sure of your plan and what to expect, find someone who knows.

[Kingmt]

Or fall it at an angle between straight up hill and sidehill. Just so the top doesn't hang over the crest.
Can cable/chain it up to pull it in the direction you want it to go.

But if you are not sure of your plan and what to expect, find someone who knows.

If I understand you correct that would put me standing straight behind the butt of the log. It would also make bucking the log for removal really hard & dangerous. I'm not cutting it soon but want to get others input to help me decide what to do with it. I don't have anyone to cut it for me.

[Ianab]

Main issue is your escape route. Once the tree starts to move, you don't want to be nearby. Make sure you have a clear track along the hillside, so if anything unexpected happens, you are 20ft away, and heading in the other direction.

[beenthere]

Kingmt
You didn't understand me correctly.

[ZeroJunk]

Main issue is your escape route. Once the tree starts to move, you don't want to be nearby. Make sure you have a clear track along the hillside, so if anything unexpected happens, you are 20ft away, and heading in the other direction.

I have a good friend who lost his foot felling a tree. I don't know the exact details of why the tree did something he didn't expect, but in the end he got tangled up in some briars.

[Kingmt]

Kingmt
You didn't understand me correctly.

I figured that. Can you explain more?

The tree is just a few feet over the hill so the majority of it would be landing on top of the hill if I fell it straight against the hill. I'm sure at least 8' of the butt log would be hanging out from the crest once it was down. The problem I'm concerned with is the trunk will contact the ground before it is down. Probably about 70% down. I know this will cause the base to jump up. I don't know how to expect the hinge to react. I don't like the idea of having to limb it out on the side of that hill. I also don't like the idea of it damaging the trees that are below it ether. This is another reason I'd like to harvest it at this point so it doesn't come down with another storm. I lost a few higher dollar trees in 2013 from a large Oak in the property line coming down.

[HolmenTree]

My first question is are you skidding the tree with a tractor or something on the top of the hill?
Sounds like the tree if felled uphill has very little lean but the use of wedges will be in order.
Plan and clear your escape route approximately 135°degrees from the direction of fall or 45° degrees from the opposite of the direction of fall.
Make a wide open face cut and then gut the hinge (bore cut out the center of the hinge ).
Make the back cut level with the apex or hinge area of the facecut to help avoid error of a bypass cut into the hinge wood. Set wedge, finish back cut. Hammer wedge until tree starts to fall, use 2 stacked wedges to finish job if needed. (Always have 3 wedges on hand).

[Straightgrain]

I'm not a pro, but this is what I would do.

Perform a good Swamp Out; not just around the tree, but on your entire escape route (s).

Use the Humboldt Face; use the taller stump to keep the felled tree from sliding down hill.

Then consider a Plunge Cut to get a suitable hinge and remove most of the material; allows for the most control before the tree begins to fall. Tap-in a wedge on both sides to prevent the tree from rocking back.

Save the back cut for last; this is the most dangerous time; stay in the mindset to clear the area.

Final thought: Oaks can be unpredictable; they may look fine on the outside, but there can be voids in the interior; sometimes, water comes gushing out.....or the tree will make un-expected turns etc.

Post pics?

[HolmenTree]

No need to confuse  kingmt any further. Keep it simple for his experience level.
As he explained the tree is near the crest of the hill and the butt would be 8 feet up in the air when felled, so be prepared to cut that Humboldt 8 feet off the ground  :D

The tree as said is standing verticle so no need for a plunge back cut held with a rear strap unless there's a strong wind ....which would not be a good day for him to fall it anyways.
The tree is 20" diameter at the stump and his MS660-20" as advertised will handle it no problem.
Just make sure the chain is sharp and you're good to go.

[Kingmt]

My first question is are you skidding the tree with a tractor or something on the top of the hill?

(bore cut out the center of the hinge ).

Make the back cut level with the apex or hinge area of the facecut to help avoid error of a bypass cut into the hinge wood. 

(Always have 3 wedges on hand).

I will buck the tree & hand load it into my trailer to haul to my mill. I've opened an access road to the back side of it across the ridge.

Bore cutting the center to allow the hinge to snap once the tree contacts?

Level cut is again to allow the butt to skip past without splitting?

Use the Humboldt Face; use the taller stump to keep the felled tree from sliding down hill.

Then consider a Plunge Cut to get a suitable hinge and remove most of the material; allows for the most control before the tree begins to fall. Tap-in a wedge on both sides to prevent the tree from rocking back.

Save the back cut for last; this is the most dangerous time; stay in the mindset to clear the area.

Final thought: Oaks can be unpredictable; they may look fine on the outside, but there can be voids in the interior; sometimes, water comes gushing out.....or the tree will make un-expected turns etc.

This was the planned cut if when I cut it unless I was told different. The tree looks sound. 20" is a small Oak here & I see no dead limbs to indicate that there is hallow spots in the trunk. I like using the back strap since I know when the tree is going to fall.

No need to confuse  kingmt any further. Keep it simple for his experience level.

As he explained the tree is near the crest of the hill and the butt would be 8 feet up in the air when felled, so be prepared to cut that Humboldt 8 feet off the ground  :D

I didn't see anything that I'm confused on. As I limb the tree out it should allow the tree to lay on the ground. I said(or meant to say) about 8' of the butt log will be in the air. I'm hoping it isn't 8' off the ground.

Thanks for the detailed advice guys. It isn't sounding as bad as I thought it might be.

As for planned escape I tend to look at that a few times before cutting sometimes changing my mind before I start cutting. I'll have less of an option for escape on this cut. Dropping down the hill & around it is basically it. However it is more of an escape then I'd have if felling it down the hill. I'd only be able to move over a few feet from the side of the tree of felling in that direction

[HolmenTree]

Kingmt, gutting or bore cutting the center of the hinge through the facecut reduces fiber pull that degrades a sawlog. Also reduces stiffness in the hinge for easier tipping,  on a 20" oak butt I'd say 10" wide would be good leaving 5" on each side.

When making a level back cut to inside corner of facecut (apex) there is less chance of over cutting and bypassing into the hinge fiber. As that mistake easily happens when a higher stepped back cut is made. A step back cut is not going to help in your situation.

If you're comfortable bore cutting your back cut setting up the back of the hinge and have a strap for control.....by all means use it. You  could have a 10 foot head start on your escape route if you had a extension pole saw on hand to cut the strap.
But without enough head lean you still may have to be at the stump to drive your wedges.
Maybe look into a pull rope from on top of the hill to simplify all my suggestions.  ;)

[Kingmt]

I really like the pole saw idea however I don't have one. I've used the plunge cut on tricky trees so I can switch out to my smaller saw before cutting the back strap. It is so much easier to make a get away with the little MS180. This will probably be the choice of cuts on this tree. I like the idea of swinging around the hill with a 14" bar much better then the bigger bars. I may even just use an axe to finish the back strap.

Also I try to always keep 4 wedges in my pocket. I never cut many trees but other then cutting wooden wedges for certain occasions I worked without wedges until a few months ago when I decided to give them a try. Now it doesn't seem like you can have to many wedges.

[losttheplot]

Maybe look into a pull rope from on top of the hill to simplify all my suggestions.  ;)

Cut a wide notch, leave a good hinge and pull it over with yer tractor.
make sure the rope is long enough 

[rasman57]

Cut a wide notch, leave a good hinge and pull it over with yer tractor.
make sure the rope is long enough
[/quote]

Yep......that would be my choice too.      The tree that killed my brother in law was not supposed  to react the way it did, half turning and pivoting on the ridge and crushing him as he ran.  Center had a shot of rot running thru the hinge.     He also had not cut a lot of trees but had a lot of saw time bucking and slashing.

Either way...just be aware that your plan MAY not be trees plan and be safe.  Usually in any dangerous situation that goes wrong, it is a compounding of USUAL risk with additional factors....like terrain that is steep and limiting for example.     Be safe and let us know how it goes.

[Kingmt]

Maybe look into a pull rope from on top of the hill to simplify all my suggestions.  ;)

Cut a wide notch, leave a good hinge and pull it over with yer tractor.
make sure the rope is long enough 

I don't have a tractor. I have a Tracker.

[JohnG28]

In terms of positioning, I think I'd fall the tree 45° to straight up hill. Facing down hill at the tree, back towards top of hill, you can make your wedge and back cuts without having to fight gravity. Should provide a better footing as well. When the tree goes move 45° in the other direction and along the hill away from the direction of fall. The should also prevent most of the trunk from hitting the crest of the hill and kicking up in the air as the distance from the stump to hill top is longer at an angle. Hope it makes sense and I'm reading your situation right. Lot of other good hints here as well but sounds like having a safe place to make any cuts to begin with will be a challenge. Be safe and get someone to help if you're not sure of yourself.

[beenthere]

JohnG28
You explained that much better than my attempt.



As to the Tracker pulling the logs up to the top, that would make a great video.  ;)
But some clever use of cables and pulley's to gain mechanical advantage should help a lot.

Tracker action...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiRyJCrF0ig

[Ada Shaker]

Kingmt, gutting or bore cutting the center of the hinge through the facecut reduces fiber pull that degrades a sawlog. Also reduces stiffness in the hinge for easier tipping,  on a 20" oak butt I'd say 10" wide would be good leaving 5" on each side.

When making a level back cut to inside corner of facecut (apex) there is less chance of over cutting and bypassing into the hinge fiber. As that mistake easily happens when a higher stepped back cut is made. A step back cut is not going to help in your situation.

If you're comfortable bore cutting your back cut setting up the back of the hinge and have a strap for control.....by all means use it. You  could have a 10 foot head start on your escape route if you had a extension pole saw on hand to cut the strap.
But without enough head lean you still may have to be at the stump to drive your wedges.
Maybe look into a pull rope from on top of the hill to simplify all my suggestions.  ;)

Snap, get hold of a tirfor winch and snatch block, (or similar), anchor the top of the tree, (or as high as you can get it), to the top of the hill or just over if you can. it will help prevent the tree from rolling onto you, also aiding with the fall and controlling wind factor which can be uncontrollable. Also in uncertain situations like this, work with a mate on standby in case something were to go a-wire. best to be safe than sorry, have a vehicle close by, and think how you would get out of a situation you didn't want to be in, to begin with. have your mate bring his chainsaw as well just in case, but let him know he'll be there as backup to watch your back.

[Kingmt]

I think felling the tree at a angle in ether direction puts me in more danger. Towards me would make it posable for the tree to come down the hill at me unless repealing down the hill but makes a dangerous job of limbing. Fell away from me could allow the log to jump the stump & the butt come at my escape route. Of course against the hill might split the log.

My only mate to keep an eye on me would be my wife. She is always there with me but I don't think she would be able to use a saw to cut me out. There is a good place for Health Net to land close by if need be. 😉

My wife only has a few hours on a saw. When she uses a saw I seem to spend as much time sharpening as she does cutting. I've never let her cut in a situation where she can get the bar pinched ether. So her  cutting me out probably isn't an option.

[Kingmt]

Been there
Thanks for the video but I can't get it to play. Says error has occurred so I'll try later.

[Shotgun]

Video works fine here.   

[Kingmt]

The imbedded code isn't working in my browser then. I can't pull the link ether. Anyone want to post the direct link?

[Ada Shaker]

I think felling the tree at a angle in ether direction puts me in more danger. Towards me would make it posable for the tree to come down the hill at me unless repealing down the hill but makes a dangerous job of limbing. Fell away from me could allow the log to jump the stump & the butt come at my escape route. Of course against the hill might split the log.

My only mate to keep an eye on me would be my wife. She is always there with me but I don't think she would be able to use a saw to cut me out. There is a good place for Health Net to land close by if need be. 😉

My wife only has a few hours on a saw. When she uses a saw I seem to spend as much time sharpening as she does cutting. I've never let her cut in a situation where she can get the bar pinched ether. So her  cutting me out probably isn't an option.

, Your supposed to be teaching your wife how to be a tree surgeon, not a medical surgeon. Just make sure she cuts the right limb if something goes a-wire. The mind boggles when one can picture a blokes wife looking at her husband pinned down by a tree, weighing up her options.... a new dinning/coffee table, or a new husband?.  :D Just make sure she gets you there in one piece. Gosh I had a good chuckle at this one, but I think you left yourself wide open on this one. I can see a sequel to Texas chainsaw massacre.

[Kingmt]

Had the Forester come to my place the other day & he said it was time for this tree to go as well so I'm still dragging my feet on it a bit but looking at it again the other day it doesn't look as bad to me as it did before. I think falling at the angle up hill is very doable & the best route to take.

[SAnVA]

Whatever way you decide to go, be carefull! Just heard this evening, a friend of mine ( in his 60's) been cutting timber all his life, was limbing a tree over the weekend and had a limb fly back and hit him in the lower leg and broke both bones. It can happen to the most experienced loggers!

[Kingmt]

Hope your friend is back in his feet soon. Limbing takes as much attention as felling. Ether way you you can end up with a tree on top of you.

[OneWithWood]

Kingmt, there is another option if you are not comfortable falling this tree.  Girdle it and let it come down naturally a piece at a time.  This will preclude any major damage to the trees downhill.  Of course you won't get to mill it but you will be around to gain more experience so you can mill the next one.
It all depends on your comfort zone.

[Autocar]

Iam with Pine Ridge on this one down hill or side hill or walk away. Up hill Ive seen them come down a hill like a rocket and the top will wipe you out. Side hill I always felt harder on the standing trees because the skidder eather has to go up or down with the pull, side hill will break off alot of trees when pulling it.

[DMcCoy]

x3  Reading this I get the shivers.  Falling back up the hill how are you going to get the wedges in and see what you are doing.  The ideas of the thing sliding toward you or the butt end being above your head and the tree hitting where it could break. 
Side hilling it was my first choice from your description.  It could still roll and damage trees.  Could be a decision of which way causes the least damage-side hill or down hill.  Walking away is an option.

I have experienced a bad barber chair once.  The tree split and kicked back and over my head about 8'.  I threw my saw and dove blindly off a bank hitting a gravel road to escape.  I got really really lucky.  When you talk of having this thing over your head - 20" of oak after hitting a ridge after it is 70% down which to me says it has gained some speed, I know I wouldn't try it, it just isn't worth it to me.

You mention concern about which saw will make you escape easier.  My suggestion is that you prepare to throw your saw away from you or drop it fast if things go wrong.  It will only slow you down.  You can buy another.  No tree is worth permanent injury.

[beenthere]

No idea what "throwing a saw" does to help the situation. Maybe" letting go" of it so one can move faster would be the quickest maneuver.
But if there is any major fear of what this tree will or not do, then walk away. Only cut with confidence that your plan will work in a safe manner. Over-confidence can get one in trouble too, as well as being naive about felling trees.

[DMcCoy]

No idea what "throwing a saw" does to help the situation. Maybe" letting go" of it so one can move faster would be the quickest maneuver.
But if there is any major fear of what this tree will or not do, then walk away. Only cut with confidence that your plan will work in a safe manner. Over-confidence can get one in trouble too, as well as being naive about felling trees.

Well I didn't want to dive on top of a running saw.  Letting go depends on where the saw is in relation to where I want to go.  Either allows one to move a bit quicker.

[Kingmt]

My small ms180 would not hinder me in an escape but if it did I'd be glad to put it down.

[Pine Ridge]

I don't know without looking at this tree exactly how dangerous it is, but it sounds dangerous as heck to me. I've watched this thread since the beginning, and if it has to come to come down and is that dangerous , this is how i would do it. hook a cable as high in the tree as you can get it, may have to use a ladder to get up high, cable long enough the tree tops won't hit the tracker, cable at least 7/16 diameter, hook it to the trackers back bumper thats parked on top of the ridge. open face bore cut the tree uphill, leave just enough of a trigger so the tree remains standing, get in the tracker and pull it over, breaking the trigger in the process. you'll probably only get one chance to do it, hinge and trigger need to be setup right the first time. may have some fiber pull or side split out on the butt log, but unless the tree takes off downhill and takes you and your vehicle with it at least you should be safe, right or wrong thats how i would do it. Be safe.

[JohnG28]

7/16" diameter steel cable on that one tree?? Or rope? That'd be a lot of heavy cable to string I'd think. Probably not a bad idea to try to just pull it over though, although I'd think a wedge cut in the front with a partial/shallow back cut, wedgeso in back cut and then go pull it over would provide a lot more control. Still have tear out, but whatever. Long as you go slow you can keep things under control IMO, short of the unforeseen which is a factor all the time anyway. Some pictures of all this would make speculating a little easier...

[Pine Ridge]

7/16 wire rope is what i should have said, it's about the smallest diameter i would use myself for this particular tree, you may have to give it a pretty good jerk to break the trigger, don't want to risk using too small diameter and having it break after all the steps you've went through to harvest this one tree. 7/16 is not that big, and it would be the minimum size i would use. I had considered wedges on each side of the trigger, but i would'nt hammer them in, I don't want to to risk breaking the trigger and the tree falling while your at the stump, thats what scares me about this tree and i'm trying to get away from so nobody is anywhere near the stump when it comes down. Pictures of this tree would be very helpful to assess the danger, like autocar said about the tree and tops rocketing down the hill, you don't want to be anywhere near it if that happens.

[Kingmt]

7/16 would be way over kill for what my little Traker could ever muster up. ;)

[Ada Shaker]

If its gonna give you that much grief, just burn it down.  8)

[Pine Ridge]

7/16 wire rope is the minimum I would use, I wouldn't want to go through all the trouble for this one tree and have the cable brake. 6 pound test monofilament fishing line is light and wouldn't be overkill, but i wouldn't use it after i'd worked this hard to fall this tree safely.

[Kingmt]

It think I'll just let it stand there until I get around to getting it. If it falls before then I'll say I wish I'd got it sooner.

Thanks for the conversation guys & your input on it. My second look at it I came up with a plan that seemed pretty simple & safe doing like beenthere suggested. Of course I might decide something different before I put my saw in it. Wouldn't be the first time I've changed my mind on a tree.