Logosol -Negative Selling

[Jeff]

Ya'll are an impressive lot. When I read posts and threads such as this I can't help but be proud of all of ya. Even Doctor Roof.  ;)

[Mark M]

I like that!  - "Dr. Roof"     8) 8) 8)

Tom, where can I get one of those Jaguars that will cut logs?  ;)

[Tom]

We have a bunch of''em under million a year contract or better here in Jacksonville.  I can't afford them though. :D

I was really talking about how many logs you could haul in the trunk :D :P :D :D

[Norm]

Patty always wanted a Volvo so I went out and got her one. Wouldn't ya know it now she wants a Jaguar. ;D

[Kirk_Allen]

Dr. J:
You stated - "But . . . . the real issue is what does the Bible say OVERALL on the subject of expressing specific crticism.  (Systematic Theology vs. proof texts).  The fact is that both Jesus & Paul dit it & directed it to individuals, sometimes calling their names."

I think that this example is quite different than the issue of negative selling or critisizing.  The reason I feel that way is that critisism directed as you outline, "to individuals" is a dynamic situation where the person being critisized is present and able to respond or interact with the conversation at hand.  

I regulary critisize our compention when I am face to face with them in a private setting.  Most salesman enjoy dabating their product with the competitors sales people but I think this is quite different than what started this thread.  

I too appreciate a civil debate and appreciate your diving in instead of throwing worthless jabs.  So, with that I would like to get to your specific question:

What does the bible say about expressing specific crtitisism?

Based on a search of the Strongs Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible with Dictionaries of the Hevbrew and Greek words of the Original with references to the English worsds I find the following.

Although the NIV and New American Standard do contain the word Critisism it is in only one place, which I mentioned before.  In the Strongs Concordance the word critisism was never used in the original writings.  So, the Bible does not say anything about specific critisism, however it does speak at length about correction, which is what some think critisizing will lead to if its done in a professional or logical manner.  

I wont go into all the references because there are so many.  The fact that critisism is not found in the original text should speak volumes to us.  At least it does to me.

From the Concordance
Correction: Bebrew translation - Yacar, (yaw-sar): a prime root: to chasties, lit (with blows) or fig. (with words): Hense to instruct - bind, chasten, chastise, correct, instruct, punish, reform, reprove, sore, teach.  

So I would say that what Christ and Paul were doing were along the lines of correction as defined in the Hebrew translation of the Bible

Oh, by the way Doc, welcome to the best web site in the world!  Bar None in my humble opinion!
  

[Engineer]

Came in late to this one.  I owned a Logosol, bought it used from Captain.  Sold it when I got my WM.  It was a great mill, didn't hardly take any effort to set up and start sawing - I think less even than the Wood-Mizer.  It did make dead-straight cuts, no waves unless your chain was dull as a bowlin' ball, then it would just try to climb out of the log and leave town.  I sold it only because I had over 20,000 board feet to cut and didn't want to spend six years doin' it.  The guy who bought it from me watched me make one cut with it, made one cut himself, and then rooted around in his pockets and handed me a wad of cash.  Only took ten minutes including setup time to convince the new owner he wanted it.  I regret having to sell it, but regret losing the big Stihl 066 even more.  :(

Got to say though, with a sharp blade in clear wood, I can make cuts as smooth as the Logosol did, all it would take is a hand plane to clean 'em up.  I was fartin' around last week with a basswood log, and cut half a dozen eighth-inch slices in succession right off the top of the log.  They look like ten foot long tater chips now, but it was fun to see how thin a slice I could cut.  One thing about Logosol, you can only cut in eighth- and quarter-inch increments, which is what I wish my WM would do.  

I think all of the mills have their place, but there's no reason to bash the bandmills.  At least not in public, and not by someone who *appears* to represent the company.

[Dr. Jerry K.]

Good thoughts, Kirk.  You are correct about the word "criticism" with respect to its appearance in a  concordance search or the Rec. Text.  But . . . . (and its a fairly big one)  the Bible is replete with criticism.  If you will check on the references of Paul that I mentioned (to Alexander, for one)  you will see that they are in the third person, not the second; this means that the man was not present.

The principle that holds, though, and that would give a considerable amount of weight to those whose views on this subject opposed mine on the Forum, would have to do with the general principle of kindness . . . the "Golden Rule" if you will.  There is also much about the spirit in which we should come to others with whom we have issues.  I have no problem applying this to one's competition.  You can seldom go wrong by avoiding questionable behavior, and badmouthing the competition is obviously seen by some as questionable.  

I think that as it pertains to the central points of this discussion here, we all need to be careful in judging someone else's motive in speaking.  Sounds to me like some things were said at the show that should not have been, or perhaps should have been put in a different way.  The question to me, though,centers around motive, implied malice, intent & and the like  (am I sounding like a lawyer now?      aaaarrrghhh!).  

Bottom line . . . . dunno!  Awful hard to look into someone else's heart.  Looking into mine is pretty much a full-time job . . . . . . & sometimes I ain't too good at it.

[Bro. Noble]

Well now,

Which kinda Bible is the best?

There's some say only the King James will do.  Others like any translation but the KJ.

Myself,  I think the NIV is the way to go. ;)

Hows that for a biblical argument ;D

[Mark M]

What's the NIV Noble?

My grandpa used to have a Shooters Bible.

[Kirk_Allen]

Thats good stinky!  I like the shooters bible!  Have had it for years.

NIV - New International Version
NAS - New American Standard
KJV- King James Version

The KJV is the oldes of the translations and written in what some call "Old English".  It can be difficult to follow if you were not brought up using it.  

The other revisions are written with a more current form of english.  

I find the NIV to be easier to read, however I have all three but the most important tool I have found is to have a good Concordance that provides definitions to every word in the bible with links to the excact chapter and verse both in Hebrew and Greek.  Now I cant read Hebrew or Greek but its nice to be able to take a word and identify what the original writings were talking about.  More of an educational tool than a spiritual tool.

Bottom line, they all have the same message of salvation.  John 3:16 somes it up best in any version 8)

[Dr. Jerry K.]

Now you guys are venturing out into some deeper water.  (Who would'a thought that I would jump into a forrum about a topic I knew so little about and find a discussion on what Ihad spent 20 years studying . . . ?)

Personally, I don't think the "which Bible" issue is one of vanilla vs. chocolate flavor.  It is a matter of which one is more faithful to which manuscript, and there are opinions galore there from smart folks on both sides.  

I strongly favor the KJV, but I am NOT a "KJV only" person.  The KVJ is 80% William Tyndale's Bible.  King James was NO shinning example of virtue.  (His mother was the Catholic Mary Queen of Scotts, & he was heavily influenced by Mom & High Anglican politics; 'nuff said...)

YES . . . . ! Far more important is the message:  we are toast if we die in our sins, & Jesus Christ provided the only ATONEMENT, i.e. COVERING . . . . and now for the GOOD part:   (drum roll, please!)

ATONEMENT is the same word as TREE PITCH, the same stuff Noah used to seal the Ark!

So . . . . . will your spiritual boat float you?  DEPENDS on what keeps the water out!  The only thing that does is in fact the "blood of a tree", i.e.  a clear symbolical representation of the CROSS and its purpose!   (See "The Passion" for a powerful depiction.)

Yup . . . . I know . . . . . that's just my opinion, folks are prone to say.  BUT . . . . .that doesn't in fact happen to be the case!  The unveliever must DISPROVE the accuracy of the Bible to make an intellectually honest case for his doubt, and that has yet to be done.  (55,000 archaeological verifications of the Bible's historical accuracy would be a good place to start.  The physical sciences abound with thousands more . . . . . . . & I'm trying hard to resist really jumping in as this is a subject I have taught.)

So . . . it all comes down to what we do about our own sins when we one day stand before a holy God who demands righteousness, and who can't apply His mercy at the expense of that righteousness.  And yes, THAT is where every version points in the same direction:  Jesus Christ.

And who would'a thunk all this would have come up in a Forestry forum?  

[EZ]

I myself read the King James version. But the most important thing that I do before I start to read is pray to him for the best guideness of his words.
EZ

[Tom]

I was just thinking....... dangerous........

Here is an example of where a well meaning preacher (salesman) or a well meaning translator could get a bunch of Y'all in hot water. :D

Preaching to the little kids that the devil is in their closet and under their beds is a bit different than saying "he is everywhere".  First thing you know, you have a generation of paranoid christians going on witch hunts.

One of those translators might have decided that his version was better than the one on the scroll too.

Just goes to show that folks go to where they think the truth is for their education because we can't know it all.  A little white lie might turn a well wisher astray. :P

[Bro. Noble]

Stinky,

I've still got a couple of 'Shooters Bibles'  from when I was a kid in the 60's.

I've also got a King James that I've had about the same amount of time and an NIV that one of my sons gave me for Christmas a few years ago (it is 'the Living Bible' version) with built in study guides,  maps, charts etc.  Makes it easy for someone that isn't a Bible scholar to understand whats going on.  I'd sure reccomend it to anyone.

I'm afraid that I'll have to admit that the one published by Stogers shows the most use :-[

[Bro. Noble]

Tom,

Been thinking a lot about another thread and a fellow forum member's situation with his young daughter. Your comments reminded me of a true story:

Our group was singing at a little country church where the preacher had preached a sermon on God's forgiveness.  No sin is too bad to be forgiven etc.  As people were leaving they were giving the preacher the coustomary 'good job,  excellent sermon'  and a handshake business.  Untill one very outspoken lady  (with 4 teenage daughters)  came by.  She told him she wished he'd eased over that forgiveness part and emphasized the part about sinfull living leading strait to Hell :D :D

[Kirk_Allen]

Dr. J.  I assume your familiar with the book, "Evidence That Demands a Verdict" by josh McDowell?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0785243631/ref=sib_dp_pt/103-7104764-9616620#reader-link


For any one that has any doubt about the salvation message and who Christ is and wants another reference book besides the bible this is a must read book.

I know of many people that simply refuse to read the bible to find truth for what ever the reason yet every person I have given a copy of this book too has read it, and of those, all but one has accepted Christ.

I have never seen a book so well put together providing the facts to support a position.  It was this very book that inspired us to market our product the way we do.  Indisputable FACTS, with the evidence to support what is said!

Wow, talk about going off topic ;)

[Kirk_Allen]

Tom, your point on white lies is well taken!

It reminds me of these two versus

2 Corinthians 6:3
We put no stumbling block in anyones path, so that our ministry will not be discredited.

Romans 14:13
Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another.  Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brothers way.

I think those little white lies you mentioned can be a major factor in pushing some folks away.  

[etat]

The tribal wisdom of the Dakota Indians, passed on from one generation to the next, says that when you discover you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount.

However, in modern business, because of the heavy investment factors to be taken into consideration, often other strategies have to be tried with dead horses, including the following:

1. Buying a stronger whip.
2. Changing riders.
3. Threatening the horse with termination.
4. Appointing a committee to study the horse.
5. Arranging to visit other sites to see how they ride dead horses.
6. Lowering the standards so that dead horses can be included.
7. Appointing an intervention team to reanimate the dead horse.
8. Creating a training session to increase the riders load share.
9. Reclassifying the dead horse as living-impaired.
10. Change the form so that it reads: "This horse is not dead."
11. Hire outside contractors to ride the dead horse.
12. Harness several dead horses together for increased speed.
13. Donate the dead horse to a recognized charity, thereby deducting its full original cost.
14. Providing additional funding to increase the horse's performance.
15. Do a time management study to see if the lighter riders would improve productivity.
16. Purchase an after-market product to make dead horses run faster.
17. Declare that a dead horse has lower overhead and therefore performs better.
18. Form a quality focus group to find profitable uses for dead horses.
19. Rewrite the expected performance requirements for horses.
20. Promote the dead horse to a supervisory position.

[Swing_blade_Andy]

21. Declare that the horse died as a result of a terrorist attack and apply for Federal Emergency Relief.

[Bro. Noble]

I suppose this thread will eventually turn to food,  but this doesn't seem like the right time :

[sparks]

Wood-Mizer has sold over 24,000 mills worldwide. If a band mill could not cut straight lumber,  that could have not been accomplished.   :D