Looking for moulder

[summerjob]

I am looking for any helpful advice.  I custom saw part time and buy a few trees here and there, air dry for a year and then sell (mainly red oak approximately 5000 BDFT a year)  I am getting ready to build my second house.  Plan on having alot of T&G floors, ceilings, and walls.  Wife likes plain trim nothing fancy.  I would like advice on a moulder to purchase at this time.  Bridgewood 3 headed-$8500 ???  Woodmaster single head-$3000 ???  Hawk single head???  Grizzly new open sided-$800???  These are a few that I have looked at.  Anyone own these? I could see this being my new niche (mainly T & G) when my house is done and for retirement in 15 years.  Stop custom sawing and produce lower volume T $ G and moulding.  Will never have to make a living at it, but want to make a smart purchase now that I won't be kicking myself later saying I should have gotten a better one.  I would rather over do it than not be satisfied.
Thanks in advance & Merry Christmas to all  

[KENROD]

I don't own a molder, but I have used a woodmaster a friend of mine has. I'm not sure of the model he has off the top of my head. It does a very good job and is tough piece of equip. He is a contract home builder and uses his to make molding and plane cabinet material. He has had it for several years and has put alot of time on it with no major problems that I am aware of.

[GF]

I have an RBI with the 5hp baldor it does good for moulding, and had some custom cutters made.  In general I have been happy with it.  Then again I cannot compare it to a 3 headed moulder since I have never used one.

I think Hawk tools now handles the line of RBI http://www.rbiwoodtools.com/.

Good luck.

[sparks]

summerjob, I am interested in who priced you a single head moulder for $3000. We do not offer a single head moulder. We only have a 5 head moulder and it sells for approx. $21,995.00. Thanks

[Jeff]

sparks, that's a "Woodmaster" molder. he mentioned.

[sparks]

DUH, I never lernt hao to reed and writ. Sorry bout that. :-[

[GarryW]

I have a Woodmaster 25" planer/moulder. It uses a single cutter for moulding. It does a good job. I've done pine, cherry, and oak moulding with it so far. I got it to do my house and I have done work for others too.

How to make a good setup arrangement (jigs) and how the control the speed properly for the different wood types are 2 things that you'll need to learn.

My largest problem making moulding is getting a straight edge. This is important for the beaded type mouding that I use for windows and doorways. The cutter that I use only cuts the bead so that I can make the pieces as wide as I want, usually they're 4 or 6 inches. This is where a 4 or 5 headed moulder would be really handy as it should help true up the edges first.

I have had some problems with the feedrollers, but Woodmaster has been a good company to work with (kind of like dealing with Woodmizer). And it does take a little while to convert from a planer to the rip blades and then the cutter head.

I got the 25" unit so that I could do wide boards. I have made flooring up to 18" wide using a rabbeting bit. But, for doing smaller widths, a smaller unit like the 12" would be better.

garry

[edsaws]

I've got and old belsaw planer molder that works great. I found it used for $600 works great for planing and making molding. Its kinda like the woodmaster but doesn't have the rermovable arbor to change to sanding :(.

[FeltzE]

If your going to run T&G you really want to surface all 4 sides, and the most economical methos is to get a larger commercial machine, there are many used machines for under 10k available but most will require 3 phase power. Iv'e got a RBI which is similar to the Woodmaster in concept, 5 horse motor, one side planning on a pass, multiple cutter heads can be run in parrallel but if your running different cutters a bit more thought may be required for the feed depths in the setup board. I have run base, crown, chair rail and door casements on the RBI with excellent results but would note that deeper profiles may require extremely slow feed and or multiple passes to achieve the depth of cut.

 I've also got a Logosol unit which will surface all 4 sides in a single pass, Running 4/4 lumber to finished s4s 3/4 in a single pass switch blades and run T&G in a single pass. Your blanks need to be pretty uniform and within reasonable thickness of the final form for optimum speeds.

[Brad_S.]

FeltzE.,
Your response touches on a question I was going to pose as I got closer to finding a moulder myself, so I hope Summerjob doesn't mind if I stray a little.
I've been trying to decide whether to get a used dedicated moulder ( I have 3 ph, that's no problem) or get a shiney new Logosol. I like the width available on the Logosol and change over seems easier than some machines I've seen but I've been worried that it's under powered. I take it from your response that you need to first s4s your moulding stock, then run it through a second time for profiling. Is that correct?
When s4s ing, does the Logosol do an effective job a jointing out cup or twist, and will a thick and thin board jam the infeed as easily as most planers?
I have a friend with a monster 7 headed planer with huge motors who can feed the most grotesque shaped boards in one end and out pops beautiful s4s or moulding from the other, but he is limited to a 8" width, which I find constaining. Fills the local farmers grain wagon with chips in pretty short order though!
Thanks.

[Tom]

I have an 18.5" Woodmaster.  I purchased an extra head so that I wouldn't be having to adjust planer blades all the time.  It's a handy/jim dandy planer and does a good job of molding.  Tongue and Groove isn't something that I've had much luck with because you would have to mount the board vertically.  I't s possible but cumbersome.  Tongue and Groove would be easier with a shaper.

Click on our sponser's logo on the left, TimberKing.  They are a sister company to Woodmaster.

[mur]

Hello
I've got both a Woodmaster and a Logosol.  Both are good machines.  I have talked to operators of big jointed Weinigs and they will tell you a pre-sized blank will give you a better finish.  Thick and thins going into any machine will affect the finish.  I am pre-sizing my blanks now and having way less trouble than before.  I am repeating the numbers following from memory of a article in one of the recent Canadian sawmill mags.  Gorman Bros. in Westbank, BC., putting out many millions of board feet a year of 1" boards, pre-sizes a lot of their stock.  And they're new planer upgrade is going to run it at 1,000' a minute.  State of the art, eh?  What I guess I am getting at is if you want that great finish, you'll probably have to run the wood twice.  In my case, I can't compete in the volume game so my wood has to have a shine on it.  Sells for me.  Less volume, more money.    

[woodhick]

Check out irsauctions.com .  They have moulders on there all the time that go in the two to three thousand range.  And thats for a five or six head machine.  Also a good place to watch for planers, bandsaws, and other woodworking machinery.  Good Luck. ;)

[Brad_S.]

Thank you for the info Mur.

[FeltzE]

Brad,

No you don't have to run s4s through to get good finish, What I ment to say is I can run S4S in a single pass.

I do presize my blanks to about 3/16 inch larger than my final thickness and about 1/2 inch in width. My logosol is the single phase model with 3 hp motors, the 3 phase has 4 hp motors which if you already have 3 ph power thats a better machine.

If you have 3 ph power you may very well be better off purchasing a 5 head machine used for similar costs and have much greater thru put with the ability to run thicker stock and deeper relief. I am by no means any kind of expert on them but I have looked around and seen some run. The 5 head machines are increadible in comparison to a logosol.... of course having the extra head allows for starting the deep relief cut, or cutting the top to within a few thousanths of finish and the second head finishes. The other advantage is the sheer power and speed of those machines.

As noted earlier IRS always has some but I think I'd rather go to a dealer on one of those as a novice I would need their support to get the first run going!

Eric

[summerjob]

Can anyone one give their opinion of the Bridgewood 3 headed moulder?  Anybody own one? I do not have 3 phase electric.  I have a 20 inch planer. In running T & G will it work to plane one side and cut blanks then run through 3 headed moulder.  I really question a single head capabilities for T & G.  Seems like alot of set up time required.  Also standing on edge seems to leave room for error.
Thanks
Greg

[Brad_S.]

FeltzE,
Thank you for your response as well. Very useful info for me. I agree with having someone to call with questions can be worth the extra in buying from a dealer. Guess it will depend on how MUCH extra! ;)

Summerjob,
As stated, I am planning (dreaming?) on building my own home as well and have been thinking along the lines that you are, buy a moulder now and use it in production down the road.
For what it's worth, here is what I have decided. :
While I could use my existing planer and shaper to profile things in 4 or so  passes and rationalize it as a labor of love, being able to send a piece through once or, worst case, twice will justify any added cost when the machine is used in the business for production work. I think the Woodmaster is a great machine for a small shop with limited needs, but in the end it takes at least 4 passes to get a finished product. I didn't look into Bridgewood, but three heads are better than one. Logosol facinates me even though I have the power capability to run bigger. In the end, I probably will go big. Too many times I have bought what I thought I could get by with only to wish for more (power, capacity, bells and whistles, etc.) later.
Thanks for this thread, it was a big help to me, hope it will be to the orignial requester, Summerjob! ;D

[mur]

Hi summerjob:
I had a friend who made T&G on his Woodmaster.  Did a nice job but slow.  And it ate the rubber rollers, he had a pile of them under the bench.  The board goes through on the vertical.  Wears the roller out fast.  So he bought a Bridgewood three head.  I can't say what the machine is capable of doing.  He ran some aspen 1x4 I gave him probably at 15% MC.  With dull knives.  I saw the finished product and was appalled.  But, that wasn't the machine, it was the operator.  I personally like the advantage of a 4 head machine.  And like Feltze says, 5 head is better.  Way more robust.  It all depends where your plans and goals are.  I'm investigating larger molders now as a big job is looming and I don't think my Logosol will have the jam.  It's fine for me now but situations change and events happen.

[FeltzE]

Some thoughts on production, ... I try to take time when I travel to see other operations including larger commercial setups. I've been up in NY seen Brian, and Down to Florida to meet DanG as well as some commercial mills.

It's worth the time to investigate what you can buy commercially available stock material then remanufacture it to meet the customers needs.

I can call and order commercial quantities of virtually any material that is already fully KD and all I need to do is to run it through the machine, saving the sawmilling, drying, wharehousing, loss for culls. I can respond fairly quickly to a customers order.

Don't underestimate local lumberyards. I called 84 lumber and droped by a tax number and my business info, for an order of 2X8X10 T&G SYP they were able to cut me a 30% discount from retail I milled the T&G and moved the entire order in and out in about 4 hours work, netting over $100/hr on my labor.

Everyone who owns a moulder can make flooring, not everyone can do it and make money, Stop by retail lumber yards and compare, T&G Oak at 2.50 / sq ft, clear unfinished, pergo under $2 / sq ft with a 25 yr finish... and check lumber liquidators..

I took a moulding calculator off the net and ran my prices through it then had to up my per sq ft price on the floor or find that I was loosing money on remanufacturing my own wood.

I can sell "mill run" oak at .75 bd ft off the mill green, 1.50 / bd ft KD but will make allowance for degrade and defects, then $2/sq ft T&G taking more losses of board footage from milling and defects... what about labor invested too? suddenly you need to up the price another 50 cents or more to continue to make shop rate.


I'd better shut up befor I go rambling on...  

Eric

[ScottAR]

Keep rambling, I'm taking notes!!   ;D

These snowmen are cool...  bad pun, sorry!   :P

[FeltzE]

Ramble No 2... ;D

There have been several mentions about using the woodmaster, rbi, and other less than 4 sided machines. I have an RBI similar to the woodmaster which does a fine job of single sided moulding, The williams and hussy single head moulder and grizzley (cheapest of all $850) will run curved stock.

But, if your running T&G products requiring 4 sided work, I'd definitely recommend a 4 sided machine...

We loaded up the RC lumber, off to the edger breaking down all the random width to uniform width, still having some variance in width though, but the lumber looks better, then off to the planer to make sure nothing is too thick for the logosol, and the lumber looks better, setting flatter on the cart, still not all laying true though, then off to the logosol, and as we stack it up on the cart it lays perfectly occasionally a bowed board but for the most part dosn't look anything like the lumber that went in. The T&G starts sliding together and then when you go to off load the cart you have to pull the boards apart.

I like the comfort of knowing that every board run through will be exactly the same size in thickness, width, and T&G placement.

Running T&G on my RBI is possible, I'd have to make a jig to set the lumber up on edge, then it voids the lifetime warrantee on the feed rollers. (which means it must eat them up)  ???

We looked really hard at making crown moulding, and various mouldings for retail sale, but it is really hard to compete with the commercial systems,   :-[ it's much better to get your name out for making custom products where you can charge a fair shop rate. Mouldings commercially are already profile sanded and ready to use, with or without primer or they are plastic injection molded with no warp or shrinkage problems, for under 50 cents a foot ... hard to compete with smaller runs on that!

Another problem with retail competition is the ability to run a 10 hour a day show room with ready to use inventory 7 days a week, we operate on a by appointment only basis. So that changes our customer support base to referrals from other business and previous customers.

ramble over...

[beenthere]

Merry Christmas to all!  

For those interested, or who may care one way or another, there is a distinction in the industry that the word "moulding" refers to a wood piece shaped to a profile with cutters, shapers, or by sanding.

The word "molding" refers to an extruded part that is formed by a 'mold'.  

This isn't a 'biggy' but helps to orient the reader to better understand to what one is speaking about. Some just think the "u" in the word is a trait of the British spelling, but over the years, the moulding industry has used the spelling to be specific to their product.

[mur]

Hi FeltzE:
Your comments are spot on.  One thing a lot of smaller woodworks do not realize though is that they can "contract" out the running of their product.  Total hassle I know, but when you can't afford the 15-25 grand for a four head, maybe you can afford the 9 cents/lineal foot Canadian - that was a quote from a Profimat operator I talked to awhile ago.   Plus all the extras, packaging etc.  But it is an affordable way to gain entry into the business.  You also learn and see the business and decide whether you want to venture further.  In ramble #2, you hit an important point.  Don't make a product the larger producers are making.  They'll eat you alive.  Unique products sell if they are well made and fairly priced.  I am looking into putting fancier patterns on my wood instead of plain old T&G.  Initial response has been excellent.  But it is still a slug.  Making product and getting it out the door at a profit.  

[FeltzE]

Beenthere... I stand DanG'd Corrected...  :'( and wen't back and corrected my strays...

Mur, I visited a larger moulding operation in Alabama. They were making premium product from whole sale lumber purchased and trucked in from out of state. And of course selling for a premium.

I guess the point is to know the whole sale cost of the lumber as a buyer, and work up from there. That way you can bid on larger contracts with known sources of lumber and knowing your production capability of the machine and manpower required establish a fair and competitive price ... hopefully.

I know I find myself looking to what we sawmill and stock as the source first for supplying a moulding (noted spelling  :P) looking to make an additional markup for our product. But I'm not sure it's always equitable.

Eric

[summerjob]

Thanks everyone for the responses.  You've been very helpful.
It sounds like I need to lean towards a 4 headed moulder.  Is there anything out there compatable with the logosol 260.  I am leaning towards single phase?  What will be the big drawbacks for me sticking to single phase?  Will the logosol 3/8 in maximum depth be a problem for me on the horizontal heads?