Sawing Used BC Fir Timbers

[Stephen1]

Gentlemen, any info for me here will be appreciated.
I am starting a milling job on Monday which has 150 BC Fir beams pulled from a ware house in Montreal and then trucked back to the Toronto Area. these beams are 10x10 - 12x12- 16x20 and a few other dimensions, most are around the 20-24 ft long. Yes they are full of metal.
The owner has had a crew of 4 guys cleaning the beams for the last 3 weeks. In fact some of the spikes are having nuts welded to them and then  they are able to pull them out.
I am being brought in to clean these beams up, take an 1" or 1/2" off all 4 sides , then once they have used them to build his house, I will be brought back to make flooring. This seems to be a good gig, so I want to do well, as I'm liking the idea of coming back to do more.
What are the pitfalls here?
I am being paid by the hour, any destroyed blades will be paid for and any ones I can resharpen will be paid at the sharpening rate.
What blades will work for these.
My big concern is how much time it will take.
I will get some pics this week.
Stephen

[sawguy21]

Sounds good to me although that fir will be like iron. I wish I could see them once you are done.

[customsawyer]

When sawing the reclaimed timbers remember it is not just the metal that is hard on the blades. The timbers will be full of dust and this will also take the sharp off of your blades. This sounds like a good deal just be ready to go through some blades. You might also have to turn the lube off as it will make the sawdust swell thus binding the blade. I have never cut fir just sharing my experience.

[red oaks lumber]

we cut a fair amount of old fir, jake nailed on the head. water off. you''ll find grit, small rocks. dust. just about everything that takes the edge off the blades.

[Brucer]

Dry Douglas-Fir isn't really that hard. I would use a 7 degree blade to saw it, though. With those widths a 9 or 10 degree blade will most likely give you a roller-coaster surface. I'd buy just one blade to try and if it doesn't work, go for a 4 degree blade.

Embedded dirt and grit could definitely be a problem. If the timbers are free-of-heart-centre and there are no deep surface cracks, you might be OK. If dirt is going to be a problem, I'd consider using the Stellite blades. They're $100 each so wait until you know that dirt is a problem before trying them. Also keep in mind that they weren't meant for cutting metal -- a hidden spike could get very expensive indeed >:(

I did a large timber resawing job a few years ago and I found the best way was to deal with one size at a time. It doesn't take long to set up a rhythm and you can move through them pretty quickly.

I have a nice little sideline in resawing aged timbers for folks. I see just about everything you can imagine, including one guy who wanted me to saw him a full dimension 8x8 out of an 8x10 that had been planed 1/2" under size ???. I'm good, but I'm not that good ;D.

Watch for timbers that aren't flat. They may have a slight twist to them, they may be bowed, or they have have a crown across one or more faces. They may also be out of square due to differential shrinkage.

If the timber is flat and square you can simply saw each face in succession. Otherwise I found it best to saw two opposing faces first, then tip the timber up against the stops to do the next one. Last face should be easy.

If the timber is twisted, even a little, you're best to have the two diagonally opposite corners raised equally. I use cheap plastic paint scrapers as wedges to make sure the timber doesn't twist a little as I'm sawing it. You should only need these on the first cut.

If the timber is bowed along it's length, I make the first cut with the centre high and the ends touching the bed rails. This prevents any rocking as you cut. Try to keep the ends of the timbers equal distances from the closest supporting rail. Start as cutting as close to the surface as you can. If for some reason you find it's better to have the ends high you can use the toeboards to keep the timber from rocking. Be sure the ends are lifting off the rails an equal amount.

For a crowned face, I like to put the flattest face down first.

You can also make your customer happy (sometimes) by sawing deeper on any face with defects. The best way to do that is to put the worst face down and take the thinnest cut possible off the better face.

Try really hard to keep the blade buried in the wood across the whole width of the timber. If you skim the surface you are going to see very obvious saw marks and the blade is going to try to rise in the wood -- much more so than in green wood.

Sometimes these various methods will conflict. You might agonize over the choices at first but it won't be long before you'll quickly figure out the best way to tackle each one.

[Ohio_Bill]

Brucer, Thanks for taking the time to explain your techniques. I am going to print your post and place it in my notebook, so when I have an old beam to saw I can refer to it.

[Brucer]

Remember I was discussing techniques that usually work for me on Western species. They're a good starting point but go ahead and adapt them to the species you're working with.

Usually a slightly twisted Douglas-Fir (which isn't a Fir at all) is well behaved. Saw the faces straight after it's dry and it will stay that way. On the other hand, I once resawed  some twisted  Grand Fir timbers that were sitting around for several years. Within  two days it had twisted almost as bad as it was when I got it.

One other point. Green wood helps suck the heat out of a blade when it's cutting. Dry wood doesn't. That means your blade can heat to the point where it starts to go slack, especially in wide cuts. You have to watch the tension guage like a hawk. Keep the carriage speed up as high as you can get away with. The longer the blade stays in the wood, the hotter it gets.

Jake suggested keeping the water off. I don't find it causes that much trouble in D-Fir. Sometimes you absolutely need it to finish a cut. Here's what I do if the blade is heating up on me. Start with the blade tension a little higher than the maximum recommended (say 2600-2700 on a Wood-Mizer). If it starts to drop below 2100 and I'm a ways from finishing the cut, I'll open up the water to a medium flow. If the tension keeps dropping I'll really open up the valve to cool the blade. That way you're sawing most of the log without water.

For this type of work I use straight water, or water plus windshield washer fluid. It cools much better than any oil based lube/coolant.

[Stephen1]

Brucer...wow thank you very much for all the info. I love this place, so much knowledge and everyone is willing to share.  8)
I  know experience counts but now I'm going in with an idea of what to look for and do. It should make everything a little smoother.
I have a few questions.
Douglas Fir...if not Fir what is it?
Tension on a wood mizer , my lt40hd is 1993, and the gauge and manual calls for 2200-2300, is that old info, that has changed with updated blades. Should I be running 26 -2700 all the time?
I am going into woodmizer Canada tomorrow to pick up my mill from being tuned up . I am also getting a lesson on the sharpener and setter. How do I know what angle blades I have, can I change the angle of the tooth by sharpening?
how do you tell the different blades apart or is it something you just learn

red oaks...jake nailed on the head? :-\

Once I start I'm sure I will have a few more questions and I will bring some pics home tomorrow.

[thecfarm]

Stephen,He meant to type,jake nailed IT on the head. Jake is red oaks first name. Gets confusing when we use real names here at times.

Edit alert,sorry wrong post,wrong name about jake and red oaks.

[Stephen1]

 :D exactly, real names are hard to match...

[plowboyswr]

Jake is red oaks first name.

I thought customsawer was jake, was I wrong?

[customsawyer]

I am Jake. This is why I go by customsawyer on here as I got tired of being called four letter words. ;D

[plowboyswr]

 :D ;D :D :D :D :D

[red oaks lumber]

i answer to any name when its supper time :D but on here its red oaks lumber or steve
i think we should all wear "hello my name is" stickers when we are on here ;D

[plowboyswr]

Then that would be confusing too I'm a Steve too!  :D theres about 5 in at work so thats how I got my "handle".

[thecfarm]

Sorry Stephen1,wrong post,wrong name   :-[  I knew what I meant to say.

[Brucer]

Douglas Fir...if not Fir what is it?

It's a false hemlock ???. The Latin names highlight the difference.

The "true firs" belong to the genus "Abies", Douglas-Fir belongs to the genus "Pseudotsuga", as in ...
  Pacific Silver Fir = Abies amabalis
  Grand Fir = Abies grandis
  Balsam Fir = Abies balsamea
  Douglas-Fir = Pseudotsuga menziesii

It seems that botanists back in the 1700's classified it as a fir. About the only similarity is between the bark of the very young trees and the shape of the needles (flat). Technically "Douglas-Fir" is hyphenated to distinguish it from the true firs.

The important difference is in the structural characteristics. Douglas-Fir is very strong and ranks with Larch as the strongest of the softwoods; the true firs are much weaker. Visually it's easy to distinguish Douglas-Fir. It has a pale, relatively thin sapwood and a warm, reddish-brown heartwood. The true firs have uniformly pale white sapwood and heartwood.

Tension on a wood mizer , my lt40hd is 1993, and the gauge and manual calls for 2200-2300, is that old info, that has changed with updated blades. Should I be running 26 -2700 all the time?

No. I only crank the tension up when I know a blade is going to overheat in the cut (which makes it go slack). Generally in dry wood I'll put the tension up at the top of the recommended range and start sawing with just a touch of blade lube. That gives me an idea of what the wood is going to be like. If the blade starts to go slack part way through the cut I'll crank the tension right up.

How do I know what angle blades I have, can I change the angle of the tooth by sharpening?
how do you tell the different blades apart or is it something you just learn

I believe you'll need a different cam to change to a 7 degree angle. Talk to WM about it. You're probably best to buy a seven degree blade to start with and see how it goes.

I write the angle on the special blades with a permanent marker, and I keep them separate from the others. The seven degree blades have a deeper gullet than the 9's and 10's -- the marker is quicker.

[millwright]

If you have acsess to a pressure washer I would use it. I recently milled some reclaimed fir and white cedar and found out the hard way it was full of little rocks and dirt.

[Stephen1]

An update to my sawing, I will have pics tonight , as I have to get them of the camera 1st.
!st I had my mill in for a look see at woodmizer Canada, and Brian the service rep did a 1st rate job, I was extremely happy witht he work done and and the info shared with me. I had an all day lesson on tuning and adjusting my machine, and setting up my sharpener and setter. He had the machine the week before and did a cpl of repairs and then saved the everyday repairs and adjusting for when I came.

Things have gone well, or so I think. We have cut 21 beams in 2 days. I believe I will be able to do about 15 a day, depending on how many are to long for the mill. Some are around the 20' and a lot are around 23-25 ft. long. I started out cutting one side and then moving the beam back and forth, I now cut the whole beam on 4 sides and then move it and then cut the remainder length on 4 sides. Save a bit of time. The client was real happy with that move, he had me call woodmizer to see about a bed extension, and how soon we could get it.
I Have tried 4 different type of blades. 10degree from cooks, they worked just fine, 10 degree which I have25 woodmizer blades worked just fine, all at 45 thou, then Brian gave me a 55thou 10degree from woodmizer, I really like it, cut the nicest and the fastest, then Brian gave me a 4degreee from woodmizer, it did A nice job also, but I am thinking I can use my 10degree blades I have, they seem to work and it will save me buying new blades right now. I went thru 4 blades the 1st day and 5 blades the second day, but haven't destryed any yet, lost a tip or 2 on a cple of blades and will  be able to sharpen and use them again I believe. I have them marked and will experiment a bit. I am charging the cline to sharpen any blades that dip or rise drastically in the wood as I have figured that it hit something. I have also learned that if I listen I can hear when I hit, so the last 2 blades I stopped right away and pulled the blade before I wrecked the beam with a hump.

[Brucer]

A few years back I was asked to resaw a bunch of White Pine 6x12's. They were freshly cut (on a circle mill) and were a half inch wider in each dimension at one end. I had to saw all four sides and I was putting them through at an average rate of 5 per hour. That was easy sawing because I didn't have to assess each one and make decisions on what face to saw first. I'd say 15 a day is pretty reasonable for the stuff you're dealing with -- you may speed up even more towards the end.

The 6 foot extension is a nice, manageable little unit. I liked mine so much I bought a second one :D. If your mill is new enough to have alignment holes drilled in the ends of the rails, setup is a snap. I cut myself a bunch of shims of varying thickness before I removed the drive chain  :D. As long as your 10 degree blades are cutting well there's no point in changing.

[Meadows Miller]

Gday

Stephen sounds like its all going great for you on that job Mate  ;) ;D ;D 8) 8) I have cut afew million of both Australian Plantation and recycled West Coast Oregon D/fir here I miss cutting it on a regular basis as it was my steady diet from when I was 13 through till about 25yo I do prefer resawing beams and the like on a circular mill  something like a 10x12 would only be on the Kara for less than 3 to 5 min  ;)  ;D but when we where getting stuff resawn for flooring I would square them up with the Circ to get the rubissh off them and we would get Colin in with an LT40 and he would resaw them to floor/furniture boards as an extra board or two makes a big difference when your getting $4 to $5 a bft for the good stuff  ;)

Regards Chris

[redbeard]

 

  

  when your sawing the reclaimed DF beams keep your eye out for the ones that are free of center and growth rings are like a deck of cards they make great flooring and finish work boards, like Meadows said 4-5$ BF. Brucer is right on the cutting methods. I do find the WM .055 10 degree work good for texturing the surface but the set goes away pretty fast and they get hot ,pour the water to them and pressure wash them and saw them wet. I use woodmaster carbides 3 TPI on the money cuts.

[Stephen1]

 

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

 
There are 3 different dimensions. These last 2 beams are waiting for the welder to come and weld nuts on the spikes or bolts so they can be pulled out.

[redbeard]

Nice set up Stephen, handling the beams is heavy work even though you have equipment there is alot of manual turning and lifting to keep from maring the finish product. I used electric chipping hammer to drive those bridge bolts out, and a gas axe to cut the nuts off. Hard work cleaning those. I had a customer that wanted the hardware left in the wanted that rusty bolt look.

[Left Coast Chris]

We had a local building supply store go out of business and was getting rid of beam seconds and greyed timbers.  I bought a few trailer (car trailer) loads of beams to resaw.  Im starting today so really appreciate Brucer's insight (thanks).   Im going to attempt to resaw 4x10s into 2x10s for horse arena boards.  Some are twisted so Im going to have a loss but got the beams at less than half fire wood cost so we will see how it goes.    Some are really pitchy.  I am thinking some Dawn dishwashing soap is a good idea.  Anyone use it before?

[Bandmill Bandit]

Dawn works good and is what i used up till Bibbyman's posts on blade lube set me on to using the murphy's oil soap. I like it better be cause I can use less over all fluid and still keep a clean band.

[Magicman]

I use liquid Cascade mainly because it does not foam up when you fill the jug.  Generic and store brands do not work as well.

[Brucer]

...   Some are really pitchy.  I am thinking some Dawn dishwashing soap is a good idea. ...

In the "early days" I tried various concentrations and brands of liquid dish soap. I eventually found with Douglas-Fir I can generally get by with just water and windshield-washing fluid. The more pitch, the higher the concentration I use. For really bad buildup I flood the blade -- open the valve until I just see water collecting on the side of the cant above and below the blade. Sometimes I'll have to run the blade for several seconds after I finish a cut to clean it up again.

[Stephen1]

I am using pinesol and windshield fluid as it is still cold here, along with water.  I am finding only a few beams with pitch in it. In fact this wood is dry enough that I can run with out any fluid, if I add fluid it doesn't seem to make much difference except if I hit pitch, or the blade starts to slow down because it is getting dull.
My problem is the resharpening of the blades. A resharpened blade is not lasting as long as a brand new blade. Is this normal?
I am resetting the the teeth every sharpen, but am doing it before I sharpen, as I have trouble getting the burr  off after sharpening. Is a anyone else doing it this way.
How  many blades should I be able to resharpen in an hour? I am using an older woodmizer sharpener and setter, probably as old as the mill, 1993.
I am also going thru about 8-12 blades a day. One day no nails and I only used 4 blades all day which I believe should be normal.
The other problem is when the blades come out of the wood and just skim the surface, that dulls them super quick.  as at the end of the beam as I try to square them from the twist in them,  as I get to the far end and had not started deep enough at the start of cut.
Even though the boys have checked for hardware I am still hitting it. In fact on Friday I hit 3 screws in one cut, these were broken off in the wood, and I hit the bottom 3/4" of each screw. the boys are using a Milwaukee metal detector,

[Brucer]

The very best Douglas-Fir (structurally speaking) usually doesn't have much pitch.

The surface of reclaimed wood can picked up a lot of very fine particles during it's lifetime. If you skim the surface of one of these timbers you'll end up dulling the outside teeth a lot faster (as you noticed). For a large beam with some twist in it, I will check the two lowest corners (diagonally opposite) with a tape, and also the middle of the beam. Then I'll try to set my height to stay just under the surface at the lowest point. This doesn't always work out if you have a lot of twist and you're trying to meet a target thickness.

If you grind too deep, too fast, you could overheat the tips of your blades and temper them (i.e., take the hardness out). Once it has happened there isn't much you can do about it.

[redbeard]

Stephen the cold weather might be helping blade keep cool but I have to really put the water to the blade when cutting the reclaimed. Brucer have you ever had a old growth reclaimed beam with a center in it twist or move  after you have cut the twists out. I had one move back to what it was after I squared it up it set in the sun for couple days I did get it pretty wet. Thought it was odd being a really old piece of wood.

[MHineman]

  Wood-Mizer used to have plastic templates you could fit against the blade to determine the hook angle, etc.  I didn't think the plastic would last and didn't get one.
  When I was at a class WM put on at their headquarters on Feb 24, I got some blades and while I was sitting in the sales tech's cubicle and saw something interesting.  I now have a prototype steel template to easily check which blade I have and how well I've dressed the stone to follow the expected profile.

  The template fits against the blade.  Think of it as what was cut away to make the blade.  It has 4 degree, 7 degree, 9 degree, 10 degree, 13 degree, and 10 degree with 1 1/8 pitch.

[Brucer]

... Brucer have you ever had a old growth reclaimed beam with a center in it twist or move  after you have cut the twists out...

Yep! They weren't Douglas-Fir but they were old and very dry. They were rejects from a timber-framing project (because of the twist) and had been sitting around the timber-framer's shop. The foreman asked me to saw two parallel faces on each one so he could set up a test-fitting rig. About a week after I cut them they started to twist even further.

I think some wood just "wants" to be that way :D.

[Stephen1]

An update, the owner has decided that he will pay for an extension,  a little late but he plans on me cutting flooring and ceiling wood out of ther reject beams.
I have cut 150 beams so far, another 60 to go, once I get the extension set up tomorrow.
Any tips for setting it up . I have it installed and will add the brace tomorrow and fine tune the level on it.
I am getting very good now at sharpening blades, since I am going thru about 10 blades a day evern had one day cutting  16x24 beams frozen and full of grit, I went thru 20 blades, thank fullly I didn't hsave anymore sharpened and was able to quite for the day. I am getting real good at changing blades now.:D

[Brucer]

If your mill has the holes bored in the ends of the rails to align an extension, setup is pretty easy.

I cut a bunch of shims of varying thicknesses for fine tuning the height on mine. A farm jack is perfect for lifting the extension while you shim it. Check the alignment after a few cuts as the vibration from the saw head will cause the shims to compress a little.

Once the main beam is aligned properly, double check the height of all the bed rails. I have two 6' extensions and had to adjust the bed rails on both of them.

[colinofthewoods]

I can't add any tips or insight to this topic,  but it is a really good read,  and a very interesting project. 

I'll bet you are getting very quick at changing blades too.  Be careful !  If you get too good at this you are going to spend the rest of your milling days cutting reclaimed wood, this might be your specialty.

[pineywoods]

Stephen1 re extension. If your mill doesn't have the holes in the ends of the rails for alignment pins...member slingshot came up with a homemade jig for drilling them. Go to slingshot's profile and list his posts to find the thread. I made one, have drilled the rails on 3 different mills locally. Makes a world of difference..
here's what the jig looks like



 



 



 

[Stephen1]

Didn't realize there was a pin to go in the rails. I noticed the extension had holes in the rails, and of course my mill doesn't . I can see it would make the rails easier to align and keep them that way.

[Jim_Rogers]

My mill and extension didn't come with any holes either. It was something that they added later on.
I did get one of those drill holders from one nice guy here on the forum. He sent it to me after he was done with it, for me to use to drill mine out.
I got some drills, some bolt stock to make the pins and I have never found the time to do it yet.
The bed extension is not connected now.
I should try and find the time....

Jim Rogers

[bandmiller2]

Brucer,you deserve a pulletsaw prise for the information given in these posts,thanks. Frank C.

[pineywoods]

Without the alignment pins, it's DanG near impossible to keep the rails aligned. And it's a real pain to align them to start with. Well worth the time spent...

[Brucer]

The newer mills are drilled for an extension. When you buy an extension there are a couple of "kits" that you have to buy as well. One of them contains the outside brace to the mill and the other contains the connection hardware. There are a couple of connection kits -- one for the older mill and one for the new ones.

If you drill out your mill I suggest you buy the two little "bullets" from Wood-Mizer. They're supposed to go into the extension, not the mill. They are specially hardened and one end is a tiny bit larger than the hole so once you hammer it in it will not come out. They guy I bought my first extension from had put the "bullets" in his mill and just could not get them out. Fortunately he was upgrading to a bigger extension so we had WM send me the two from his upgrade.

Brucer,you deserve a pulletsaw prise for the information given in these posts,thanks. Frank C.

Thank you kindly. Just giving back a small part of what I've got from this forum. The real prize should go to Jeff for making this place what it is.

[Stephen1]

Well I thought today was a good time to thank Brucer for the detailed posting. With out it I would have had a lot steeper learning curve.
I finished the sawing job last week and took a weeks vacation up at the sugar bush, that was a little dismal, poor syrup season this year by the way, worst in 40 years.

Any ways I did learn a few things on this job. Saw dust in my blood for sure now, on the 2nd last day I was cutting, I asked myself if I could retire and do this, and it was Yes.
I can now set and sharpen blades, they do last as long as a new blade now.
I am still amazed that my sharpen and setter, I believe to be the same age as the mill, a 1993, it5 seems to be the same as what they are using now. I was told for a 15,000$ upgrade I could have a new fancy one.  ;D that does it all. I realise I was going thru an exceptional amount of blades, twice I went thru 18 blades, which is the only thing I didn't take into account when I started. Some nights I was sharpening till 1 in the morning and up at 5 to go cut.
I can change a blade pretty fast now.  :D
I believe it is southern yellow pine, or at least that's what I called is horrible stuff with the pitch that was in some of those beams, was horrible, the blade came off a couple of times from build up of pitch under the belt on the wheel,  I called it yellow glue.
It is easier on the mill to roll the cants into the uprights. Not such a pounding on the frame. 16x24 cants were pretty loud and the vibration and thumping when turning them :-\  and not as many marks in the cants from the turner or cant hooks. I did have to daily adjustments on leveling the mill, and twice daily with the extension as the frost came out of the ground, everything shifted.
Woodmizer is going to lend me their jig to drill the end of my rails. I just have to check this week as  there is a chance they are hardened steel, 1 out 4 were made like that back then so there will be a chance I can't drill it.
My old mill held up remarkably well for something built almost 20 years ago. I found Brian and everyone  at Wood Mizer Canada a great help, especially with my sometimes daily phone calls.
The forum and being on here over the years has really given me a lot of info so as to be able to even think about doing something like this.

[colinofthewoods]

It has been fun following along with your project,  thank you for taking the time to document it. I appreciate it.

[Brucer]

 

You took on a lot there, Steve, but you made it work .

Very nicely documented, too.

[Jim_Rogers]

Woodmizer is going to lend me their jig to drill the end of my rails. I just have to check this week as  there is a chance they are hardened steel, 1 out 4 were made like that back then so there will be a chance I can't drill it.

First of all, how to do you check to see if it is hardened steel?
And what are you going to do if it is?

I haven't drilled out mine yet, but I wanted to shortly as I have to bring it back home and set it up again with the bed extension.

I'm on a site now milling long timbers for a customer's future timber frame addition.

Jim Rogers

[Magicman]

Thanks for the update and wrap up Stephen1.  Yours has been an interesting project and I believe that everyone that followed it has learned something.   

[Stephen1]

Woodmizer is going to lend me their jig to drill the end of my rails. I just have to check this week as  there is a chance they are hardened steel, 1 out 4 were made like that back then so there will be a chance I can't drill it.

Hi Jim, I am told to take a center punch and try to mark the steel, if it leaves a mark I can drill it. If it ruins the center punch and no mark, it is hardened steel and I will not be able to drill it. Brian also says that I will have to be very accurate  with the drill.

First of all, how to do you check to see if it is hardened steel?
And what are you going to do if it is?

I haven't drilled out mine yet, but I wanted to shortly as I have to bring it back home and set it up again with the bed extension.

I'm on a site now milling long timbers for a customer's future timber frame addition.

Jim Rogers

[captain_crunch]

Glad it worked out for you was wondering about the water part Dry or standing dead Doug fir is about the only time I need water on my circle mill. Wish my buddy was still around these parts beings he has been doing this for a buisness fer about 15 years. In fact his company name is The Timber Recycler