no excuses

[red oaks lumber]

this is a scene that seems to be played over and over. this week i had a customer bring in 1359 b.f. of green sawed red pine, my customer lives 100 miles away so bringing lumber was easier than logs so, he hired a sawyer close to his location.
the pine logs were from a plantation so not the biggest  i guess around 8"- 12"dia. customer  tells the sawyer you can make 3 sizes i'm having t&g wall board made so random is good.
back to my customer showing up to unload at my shop, we go look at the load of lumber, the first thing i noticed just glancing at them was random width so i asked how come so many sizes? well he said there is only 3 sizes.when all the wood was stickers i had a tally of sizes 3/1/2  4   4 3/4   5  1/2  6   7  7 1/2  and 8
first off if some one is paying for sevices atleast they should get what they asked for, to me there is no excuse for this saw job at all. cutting small wood or not making 3 sizes is very simple if you are any kind of sawyer.
the customer already paid to have his wood sawed now he gets to pay for drying and ripping of wood he wont even see, i wont charge him for the time i stand there and measure and sort all sizes then come up with the  widths i'll make.
this kinda of poor sawing happens alot so for any one sawing or thinkijng of sawing please, know what it is your doing before sawing lumber  or at the very least ask for help
  remember there are no excuses

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

Good story Steve and GOOD ADVICE. I can see the look on your face when you first looked at the 3 sizes!  :D

Better yet.....I could hear you all the way down South.  :D

You made a good point though. Advice taken.

[LOGDOG]

You're 100% correct Red Oaks Lumber .... Considering that most all of our bandmills are capable of sawing to within 1/16" if they're properly aligned, there's no reason not to be able to calculate, even manually how to set your cant up so that you end up with the intended dimension of lumber at the end. Flitches can be edged to size. It would be one thing if we were talking wide boards that had been stickered for a while, drying and shrinking to create some difference in widths but it doesn't sound like this was the case here.

[WDH]

That sure creates a lot of extra work.

[Magicman]

And it also sheds a poor light on sawyers in general.  I had to overcome that stigma in my area and prove to folks that quality and uniformly sawed lumber was possible.

[kenlt30]

I had a repeat customer call me to straighten out some floor joists he had sawn by someone else. I made sure the waves were gone and the previously sawn lumber was straight. One local sawyer here saws cheaper and with dull blades.

[Magicman]

I do not even consider someone that saws cheaper as competition.  They know what their sawing is worth and folks get what they pay for.

[WDH]

In my experience, cheap does not pay  .

[Larry]

I question your customer.  First he pays a sawyer to saw three sizes but accepts 8 sizes.  Than he will end up driving 400 miles to have you dry and T&G a small amount of lumber. 

I would think by the time he's done he could have had T&G delivered for less $$$ and not done a thing.

Sometimes its best not to question. :(

[red oaks lumber]

when a good portion of my buisness is custom planing boy then you really see what kind of wood jockeys are out there cutting lumber ;)
earlier this year i was going through the history of red oaks lumber inc. i realized i past a couple of milestones. 1) served over 7000 customers  2) had 19 million b.f. of lumber pass through the shop either from drying or planing. no wonder my body is wore out :D
   

larry,
i pointed the sizes out just by looking at them at first not measuring them. when people deal with me its not just the wood transaction its the whole  expeirance, its a learning thing. my motto is " we meet as strangers and part as friends''. this customer has had me do wood flooring and wall board for 3 of his houses over the yrs.

[captain_crunch]

Guess I should feel good I have 2 cabnit makers bring wood to me even knowing Belsaw has bigger kerf by far over band mill Just because I try hard and kinda understand getting all the quarter sawn I can but look fer the riff sawn and flat sawn fer building chairs. Anybody can butcher a log Mr Magicman has it well written at bottom of his posts

[Brucer]

I had a competitor who always knew what was best for the customer. One of the customers always asked for timbers with no wane. If the guy had a log that was a bit to small, he'd saw it with wane on all for corners. When the customer complained, the guy would say "That's good enough for what you're using it for."

And guess who ended up with all the future work from that particular customer  ;D ;D ;D.

Sometimes your competitors are your best advertisement.

[Ron Wenrich]

Were a good deal of those boards in 3 different widths?  Some of those differing widths could be from going through an edger.  When they tell me random width, that's what they get.  Sounds more like a poor communication between customer and sawyer, or sawyer and edgerman. 

[tcsmpsi]

Were a good deal of those boards in 3 different widths?  Some of those differing widths could be from going through an edger.  When they tell me random width, that's what they get.  Sounds more like a poor communication between customer and sawyer, or sawyer and edgerman.

I was curious if the 'owner' had communicated properly to the sawyer.  I would say they were likely sawn on the mill, where an edger wasn't used.  If the customer had intimated they were going to another fellow finishing, he may have considered it little consequence, as to random widths, since they were going to be 'squared up' anyhow.
Certainly, that is not to say that all sawyers are conscientious of quality above and beyond.  Just possibilities. 

[red oaks lumber]

how difficult is the conversation i want 3 sizes? i think a 6 yr old can under stand that. every sawing job is the calling card of the sawyer, good sawing positive advertising , poor sawing bad advertising.
when we  are planing some one elses wood that was not sawed by us, if the sawing is good or bad i make sure to explain that to my customer and urge them to talk to the sawyer that did the sawing. i have even told them to have the sawyer call me so i can give them suggestions for improving their sawing skills. as of this time not 1 sawyer has ever called and i'm still gettting the same poor sawing coming in for planing.

[beenthere]

tells the sawyer you can make 3 sizes i'm having t&g wall board made so random is good.

In the OP, this is what we read. So if random is good, then random is what apparently was sawn out of the logs. Probably with a higher yield than if just three widths.

Least that is what I was reading into this.

[Ron Wenrich]

Random width with 3 sizes isn't random width.  The customer should have specified that they wanted 4,6,& 8 inch lumber, for example.  Then they probably would have gotten the widths and the amounts they wanted.  The customer got what he ordered.  Random width. 

We don't know what the other sawyer was told or what he understood.  Seems like we shouldn't be berating them without knowing the full story.  If someone told me to call them for sawing advice, I think I'd pass.  They don't know my logs or my equipment or my experience.

[Cedarman]

Maybe random was random length.  If I was the sawyer, a red flag just got thrown. I would have said  "Drag that by me again, what widths are you wanting?"  Communication, Communication, Communiction.
When talking with anyone inquiring about cedar, it is one of my main responsibilities to make sure what the customer "really" wants is understood by me.  It is also my responsiblity to make any suggestions or ask all the appropriate questions.
When someone asks for 2x4, I need to know what actual size is expected. Full 2x4 or nominal size or something in between. Does it need to be planed? How good does the 2x4 need to be?  Are you cutting any of them into shorts?(Lets me use some that have too big a defect by cutting off the bad). Thus, I won't have to hear, "That's not what I expected".
So, is it the customer's fault for not being clear or is it the sawyer's fault for not making the customer be clear?

[red oaks lumber]

i guess there  is the problem. 3 sizes is 3 sizes the sawyer can detemine what  size to make the 3 sizes.
ron, if some one is having you saw wood for them to have flooring made with and its coming to me for procesessing do yopu know anything about how we like to have material sawed? or how the whole process works? this problem keeps happing
the more posts the more the blame keeps being put on the customer not on the sawyer.unless the sawyer is completly clear on what the final goal is , no sawdust should fly.

[Magicman]

Using 3 different sizes at random is different from 8 different sizes.

My wall paneling lumber that is at the kiln is sawed 6, 8, 10, & 12 and will be used at random.   In my instance, random did not mean 4, 5, 7, 9, 11, or any halves.  Of course, I sawed it so I got what the "customer" ordered.   ;D

[Ron Wenrich]

We're all envisioning what the conversation went like.  To me, the customer comes up and says that he wants random width so he can make 3 different widths of T&G paneling.  My next question would be what widths did he want, and they would be my target.  Would they be all exactly the same?  I wouldn't be as concerned about that.  Its going to be remanufactured.  I'm a rough cut mill.

However, I'm not sure that the customer specified 3 widths to the sawyer.  He may have said random width, then decided he wanted 3 width sorts after it was sawn.  We just don't know.  That's why I wouldn't be too rough on the other sawyer.  I do know that a lot of customers don't know what they want until after its sawn.   And, we don't know if the customer even talked to the sawyer or if he talked to the mill owner.  They're not necessarily the same.  I always get order information on a second or third hand basis.  Too late to ask the customer in most instances.  Most is construction lumber.  Sure glad I deal with commercial customers.

I saw 1-2 trailerloads of flooring lumber each month.  It is always random width and random length.  Never had complaints. 

[tcsmpsi]

Personally, I haven't seen anyone trying to "lay blame" on the 'customer'.  Only thing that might be construed to that, would have been, that since none of us were privy to the communication between the sawyer and his/her customer, blaming the sawyer would be a bit premature.

Now, on my end of it, a customer brings me random width boards (wherever they got them from), and wants 3 specific widths from them, then he/she is liable for the resources required to make them all those specific widths.  If they find that problematic, then I would explain to them the process on the milling end (or if they found them laying on the side of the road) to get them to me so they don't require those resources. 

Certainly, it is no secret that poorly adjusted mills and sawyers (and everything else) ungraciously exist.

Maybe next time they would have me just go ahead and do the milling, planing and/or moulding.  Which would suit me just swell.   :D

[beenthere]

Regardless of what happened earlier, there is now a stack of pine lumber that needs to be made into t&g. Will it end up in three widths?

It is what it is, and you now make the deal with your customer to turn it into a product he wants at a price he will pay.

The extra wood will just end up in shavings at the moulder rather than in edgings at the sawmill.

[LOGDOG]

...but he'll pay ROL for kiln drying, ripping and shaving off through the moulder the waste that may have been left in edgings at the mill. Truth be told, a lot of that can be avoided by the way you set up your log and cant.

[red oaks lumber]

when i'm done there will be 3 exact sizes. he'll have less wood and more cost when its all said and done. rough sawn dosent mean get it kinda of close in size.
differant angle if you wanted new tires put on your truck would you be happy if they put on 3 tires that were the right size and the last one was differant? i dont think any one would let that happen  poor sawed lumber is really the same thing. it dosent take any more time doing something right as it does doing it close enough.

[Axe Handle Hound]

Red Oaks- can you give us an idea of what are your accepted tolerances are for lumber?  Just to be clear, I mean that as a sincere question.  I'm honestly interested in what level of accuracy you strive for at your mill.

[red oaks lumber]

i feel varying in width 1/8" -1/4" is ok with a bandmill any thing more is just not acceptable. thickness should be even tighter, i feel most sawyers don't flip their cant often enough to keep the stress even(thick & thin).
if some one wants 1x8 sawed thats what he gets.
if i'm sawing wood for the end user so he can have cabinet stock or just lumber, and its hardwood i still saw nominal size 6" or 8"  0r 10" when you spend alot of your time 4 side planing you learn real fast the importance of uniform lumber.

[Magicman]

There is also the little thing called "pride".  When I leave a customer with his newly sawn lumber, I want to see uniform stacks of equally sized lumber.  The customer knows when he got a quality job and he will remember who to call next time.

[oakiemac]

This post brings to mind a couple of problems that I have had over the years. One was a few years back I hired a portable sawmill guy to saw up a couple thousand bf of poplar because I was so far behind. I made the mistake of never really looking at the lumber-just firgured that it would not be very hard to saw the soft poplar. when he left, I have never seen such a pile of wavy boards as these were. He edged them on his mill and not only was the thickness all over the place but the widths were wavy as well from him "edging them".
The other thing I see all the time is too thin lumber. I looked at some walnut that a guy had in his barn this week. I needed some more so I thought I'd buy this walnut at a good price. Drove 20 minutes to look at his stack but didnt even have to get out to the truck to see that I didnt want it. It had been cut "4/4" he had told me but the actual rough sawn thickness was around 7/8".
There are a lot of guys with sawmills but very few sawyers.

[tcsmpsi]

I keep the mill adjustments and sawing techniques the same for others' wood as I do my own. 
More planing, more 'squaring up' = more time/wear/expense on machinery = no good.  Sawing wood for others, we talk about their use of the wood, what they think, what they think they know, what'll work, what won't work, etc. and then come up with viable dimensions, sticker/no sticker, included/not included, yesterday's weather, etc.

[WDH]

To me, sawing pine is a whole different animal than sawing hardwood in my opinion in my area.  The reason is that pine is cheap and readily available in stock sizes at the lumber store.  Here, you can't get hardwood except for a few sky-high priced species at the big box store.  So, there is not a stock product spec that you have to adhere to.  You can saw random width and it does not affect the end use of the product as much except for flooring.  However, I have sold very little wood for flooring.  That too is a pretty cheap commodity product in some sense given the amount of work required to log, saw, dry, and groove.

Most furniture project design fits well with non-stock random width. 

[Ron Wenrich]

There are 2 different types of flooring markets.  Strip and plank.  With the strip markets, they dry, then rip into strips.  The planks dry and crosscut defect, then rip to width.  With a microwave kiln, they can defect before they dry and deadpile.  All use random width.

Our local papers always have hardwood lumber for sale.  Some at pretty low prices.  The cabinet shops often bring in premade panels.  A lot less waste at their end.

[tcsmpsi]

For the stuff I stack in the shed, I just get the most/best I can get out of the log. Framing lumber, I cut to final dimension on the mill (usually sawn from pines I have to cut down for one reason or another, anyhow).  Good quality, 1X pine over 6" wide brings a pretty good price in the lumber stores...and has good value for barter or sale from the shed, too.   

[Magicman]

I have gotten several calls from distant potential customers (over 100 miles) inquiring about sawing.  I have either sawed them or refused them, because I can not recommend another sawyer when I do not know the quality of his work.  If I make a recommendation and the customer gets a poor quality product, then it would reflect poorly on me.

I have heard other sawyers say; "that is why it's called rough sawed".

[LOGDOG]

There is also the little thing called "pride".  When I leave a customer with his newly sawn lumber, I want to see uniform stacks of equally sized lumber.  The customer knows when he got a quality job and he will remember who to call next time.

Bingo .... A trained eye can stand back and see the uniformity in a stack of stickered lumber. It's a beautiful thing when it's all nice and even.

[WoodMiller]

Seems to me there are three 'customers' in this deal for paneling.  Obviously, the gentleman having his wall paneling made is the main 'customer'.  It's incumbent on the customer to communicate clearly what he wants, and then to make sure he got what he asked for.  I'm assuming this customer supplied the logs and the sawyer was employed to saw them.  Was he getting paid by the hour? By the Board Foot?  If by the hour, he had plenty of time to saw the dimensions the first customer wanted, provided the logs supported those dimensions with no or minimal wane AND the main customer clearly communicated "I want all widths to be either 4, 6, or 8 inches, plus or minus an eighth (or whatever the dimensions and tolerances needed to be).  In this instance, the sawyer is a 'customer' in that he has to be supplied with materials and specs to do the job, and has to make sure he has gotten those details.  If I was sawing these logs and getting paid by the board foot for the final 3 widths, I've got to adjust my pricing for the waste in extra edging or for the time spent in sorting and edging jacket boards and flitches, etc.  I'm also responsible for tolerances in the final product as to width and thickness - but not usually length (I didn't buck the logs).  The dry kiln/planing/moulding operator is the third 'customer' and should clearly spec his desires to the original customer for dimensional tolerances required for the best price.  The fact is, SOMEBODY has to pay the price to get those boards to their final dimensions and the main 'customer' - the one with the final product has to make sure he/she got what they ASKED for, because they are the ones paying for it.

[red oaks lumber]

woodmiller
there really isnt anymore time spent sawing these logs or any others. if i sawed this job i would first look at the logs to see roughly what my sizes will be then let the sawing begin, if i decide im sawing 4" 5" 7" which size of log comes up to saw next looking at it determine real quickly the size of cant to make and go from there. not really any differant than sawing every day, you still need to have a target size when sawing , if not then i guess you create something similar to this whole topic we are discussing.

[LOGDOG]

Make no mistake about it ....There's ONE customer in this scenario and two "vendors". The sawyer is a vendor and Red Oaks (the kiln/planing mill) is a vendor. Plain and simple. Regardless of what I'm charging on the job, it gets done right and accurately. The notion of "Oh, you wanted 'accurately sawed lumber'? Well that will cost you more..." is preposterous.

I sawed commercially for years with my Woodmizer's and if my lumber was 1/16" shy I got docked by the lumber brokers and the graders. I learned how to saw accurate lumber. Period. Whether or not I came out profitable at the end of the deal.

[Cedarman]

About 12 years ago when we had our mill in Alabama, I called on a company to see if we could sell them lumber.  They told me a price and I thought it too low.  What could I do to help them make money?  I asked them what widths worked the best for them.  There were 3 or so that kept their waste to a minimum.  I then asked if they would split the savings with me.  This company had been in business for 50 years and the owner said that no one had ever offered to do that.  We agreed on a price and so we added them to our customer base until markets changed and they shut the cedar chest factory down.
Even though the customer had been in business for 50 years, my knowing what can help a customer make better decisions paid off for us.
The customer may know what they want, but never realize they could have something better if only the seller "sawyer" would know what to ask.
It is my job to know the specifications that work best, what tolerances are satisfactory. Those specifications and tolerances are what I need the customer to tell me.  Sometimes they won't tell unless I ask.

Once I know the specs and tolerances, it is our job to meet them.
It seems such a simple concept.

[WoodMiller]

I guess my point is that communication and understanding the customer's needs is vital to a successful production.  The idea of there being just 'vendors' and 'customers' in a transaction is only true if there is only one vendor who produces an entire product for the final customer.  In this transaction, the sawyer is producing a product that is used by Red Oaks to produce a final product for the ultimate customer.  That makes the sawyer a 'vendor' to Red Oaks and Red Oaks is the sawyer's customer. 
I've got no issue with producing accurate lumber, but I also have no issue with producing lumber that will clearly meet the customer's minimum and maximum requirements - but I have to know what they are.  If the requirement for width is 6 inches and I produce a board that is 5 15/16 wide, I haven't met the minimum and the customer can reject the board.  If I cut it 6 1/8 to insure that, by the time the customer takes delivery the width is still at least 6 inches, I've exceeded the minimum and should get paid for it.  If I remember correctly,  Red Oaks said his tolerance is +/- 1/8 to 1/4 in width.  If that's what he needs, I'll give it to him, but only if I know what the tolerances are.  Also, Red Oaks, do you have a different tolerance for circle mills?

Also, when setting up a cant - grade and stress play a big role in sawing the cant.  So, if I'm to saw for grade and width, and I want to minimize stress in the board, I don't see how I can set up a cant to always give me the minimum width as the grade changes on the sawn face.  That means I've got to saw oversize and edge to final width.  If I don't have an edger, that's a slow and relatively expensive process on the mill.  BUT - if that's what the customer (the one who is paying me for the service wants) - I'll do it.

[red oaks lumber]

why would you grade saw a customers pine? or grade saw a customers wood that will be clearly used in a size specific  manner?
the only one that benfits from grade saw in the hardwood mills, thats it. where else can you sell some thing that doesnt exsist?

[Jim_Rogers]

If we go back to the original situation the customer who was talking to the sawyer, told him I want three sizes but they can be random. That to me is saying two different things. If it's random width then it's random width. If he wanted three sizes then it isn't random width, it's three sizes.

It's like saying I want my house painted red orange. Well which is it red or orange? You really can't have it both ways.

What the sawyer obviously heard was "random" only, and that's what he did. It was most likely wrong but that is what he did.

When I begin a job with a new customer or a previous customer, I go through a list of questions that I have typed up on a sheet.
The first question is what thickness do you want your lumber?
The second question is what widths do you want your lumber?

If some of the logs, or all of them, are hardwood, I explain to them that the standard for softwoods is that it usually comes in even widths, such as 4", 6", 8", 10" and 12" widths. But with hardwood you can get whatever width that the log will make. But that I try and do it in full inches, such as 4", 5", 6", 7", 8", 9", and on. But I try not to do between inches like 4 1/2" or 5 and 1/4" like that.

Most customers understand this. And another question I ask if hardwood is being sawn is "odds and even widths ok?" This just follows up on the width question to make sure they understand that they will be getting odd inch width pieces, in their pile.

I write down all these answers on the printed paper to make sure that I have it right before they leave my sawmill yard.
And these are the guidelines I use to do my best to saw the lumber the way they want it.

I am currently sawing out some red pine and white pine logs for a future timber frame, on site. The customer didn't talk to me. I was told to do the job by the builder's project manager. He told me to saw as wide as possible. And he provided me with a stock list of timber sizes for the future timber frame, which hasn't been designed yet.

On this list were 7x7 and 7x9s. So that means I'm going to have some odd width lumber. If I have a good 1x7 piece 22' long, I'm not going to saw it back to a 1x6 to make it a softwood standard width, because they told me to saw it as wide as possible. To me that meant odds and evens were alright with this order. I had to use my own judgment on that question. And so far no one has said that odd widths were wrong.

I don't want to say the customer was at fault, but he did say, in my opinion two different things. If it was me I would have not let it go and I would have questioned him more to make sure I understood what he wanted. The sawyer who did his job didn't do that. So that could be his fault for not following up on the subject of widths.

But even if he did hear the word "random" he should have sawn it to a softwood standard, such as 4", 6", 8" and up. None of these 5" or in between sizes should have been in the pile. That is what standards are all about.

[WoodMiller]

Hey, Red Oak -
You're right, of course.  I thought about that after I went to bed last night.  You're talking softwood (plantation trees) and I don't saw much softwood at all - mainly hardwood - grade and/or utility/fence boards.  I guess I assumed you normally dealt with hardwood, too, given your handle.  Trying to educate customers on the sawing standards and grading rules is a hard task.  If the customer is not totally ignorant of them, he/she often has misinformation loaded as fact.  A real good example is hardwood vs softwood standards.  Any Sawyer worth his sweat should understand these standards and try and educate the customer.  BUT, in the end, the customer should get what he asked for, even if it's wrong.  Case in point: sawing FAS grade white oak boards into fencing - it's his wood, and his money, so his call.

[red oaks lumber]

the customer said he wanted 3 sizes and random width is ok. what part of that is confusing? when he told me that my first thought was this. he wanted 3 sizes but didnt care what those 3 sizes were to be .
when in doubt ask questions

[red oaks lumber]

woodmiller
i actualy  came up with red oaks lumber  when my great great  grandfather settled in this area there was a picture with his homestead  on the hillside in front bordered in white rocks there was the name of his farm "red oaks farm"  from that moment i decided to call my buisness  red oaks lumber. at the time i never even thought about that might sound like all we do is rol
sorry for the short history bit

[Magicman]

My original take was that he wanted 3 sizes and he would install them randomly on the wall as paneling.  Same as I will do with 4 different sizes for my Cabin wall paneling.

Different words mean different things in different context.  Communication and understanding is the answer.

This all reminds me of something I read long ago:  "I know that you think you heard what I said, but you do not understand that what you think you heard is not what I meant".

[customsawyer]

The only thing I can add is there is some frustration in following some sawyers as they tend to give the whole industry a bad name in some circles. This is one of the reasons that I try to help a less experienced sawyer. If I can help them to produce better lumber then it tends to come back to me. Most times it is a job that is to big for them so they call me to come help or when the logs are to big. ;D This is one of the reasons that I love this forum as we are all able to help and to learn from each other, thus making us all better at what we do.
Red oaks I would be willing to take a lesson. ;D

[red oaks lumber]

customsawyer.. there ain't no teachin you but, i;m willing to give it my best shot :D