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Started by red oaks lumber, April 04, 2012, 09:54:19 PM

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Axe Handle Hound

Red Oaks- can you give us an idea of what are your accepted tolerances are for lumber?  Just to be clear, I mean that as a sincere question.  I'm honestly interested in what level of accuracy you strive for at your mill.

red oaks lumber

i feel varying in width 1/8" -1/4" is ok with a bandmill any thing more is just not acceptable. thickness should be even tighter, i feel most sawyers don't flip their cant often enough to keep the stress even(thick & thin).
if some one wants 1x8 sawed thats what he gets.
if i'm sawing wood for the end user so he can have cabinet stock or just lumber, and its hardwood i still saw nominal size 6" or 8"  0r 10" when you spend alot of your time 4 side planing you learn real fast the importance of uniform lumber.
the experts think i do things wrong
over 18 million b.f. processed and 7341 happy customers i disagree

Magicman

There is also the little thing called "pride".  When I leave a customer with his newly sawn lumber, I want to see uniform stacks of equally sized lumber.  The customer knows when he got a quality job and he will remember who to call next time.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

oakiemac

This post brings to mind a couple of problems that I have had over the years. One was a few years back I hired a portable sawmill guy to saw up a couple thousand bf of poplar because I was so far behind. I made the mistake of never really looking at the lumber-just firgured that it would not be very hard to saw the soft poplar. when he left, I have never seen such a pile of wavy boards as these were. He edged them on his mill and not only was the thickness all over the place but the widths were wavy as well from him "edging them".
The other thing I see all the time is too thin lumber. I looked at some walnut that a guy had in his barn this week. I needed some more so I thought I'd buy this walnut at a good price. Drove 20 minutes to look at his stack but didnt even have to get out to the truck to see that I didnt want it. It had been cut "4/4" he had told me but the actual rough sawn thickness was around 7/8".
There are a lot of guys with sawmills but very few sawyers.
Mobile Demension sawmill, Bobcat 873 loader, 3 dry kilns and a long "to do" list.

tcsmpsi

I keep the mill adjustments and sawing techniques the same for others' wood as I do my own. 
More planing, more 'squaring up' = more time/wear/expense on machinery = no good.  Sawing wood for others, we talk about their use of the wood, what they think, what they think they know, what'll work, what won't work, etc. and then come up with viable dimensions, sticker/no sticker, included/not included, yesterday's weather, etc.


\\\"In the end, it is a moral question as to whether man applies what he has learned or not.\\\" - C. Jung

WDH

To me, sawing pine is a whole different animal than sawing hardwood in my opinion in my area.  The reason is that pine is cheap and readily available in stock sizes at the lumber store.  Here, you can't get hardwood except for a few sky-high priced species at the big box store.  So, there is not a stock product spec that you have to adhere to.  You can saw random width and it does not affect the end use of the product as much except for flooring.  However, I have sold very little wood for flooring.  That too is a pretty cheap commodity product in some sense given the amount of work required to log, saw, dry, and groove.

Most furniture project design fits well with non-stock random width. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Ron Wenrich

There are 2 different types of flooring markets.  Strip and plank.  With the strip markets, they dry, then rip into strips.  The planks dry and crosscut defect, then rip to width.  With a microwave kiln, they can defect before they dry and deadpile.  All use random width.

Our local papers always have hardwood lumber for sale.  Some at pretty low prices.  The cabinet shops often bring in premade panels.  A lot less waste at their end.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

tcsmpsi

For the stuff I stack in the shed, I just get the most/best I can get out of the log. Framing lumber, I cut to final dimension on the mill (usually sawn from pines I have to cut down for one reason or another, anyhow).  Good quality, 1X pine over 6" wide brings a pretty good price in the lumber stores...and has good value for barter or sale from the shed, too.   :)
\\\"In the end, it is a moral question as to whether man applies what he has learned or not.\\\" - C. Jung

Magicman

I have gotten several calls from distant potential customers (over 100 miles) inquiring about sawing.  I have either sawed them or refused them, because I can not recommend another sawyer when I do not know the quality of his work.  If I make a recommendation and the customer gets a poor quality product, then it would reflect poorly on me.

I have heard other sawyers say; "that is why it's called rough sawed".
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

LOGDOG

Quote from: Magicman on April 06, 2012, 11:06:20 PM
There is also the little thing called "pride".  When I leave a customer with his newly sawn lumber, I want to see uniform stacks of equally sized lumber.  The customer knows when he got a quality job and he will remember who to call next time.

Bingo .... A trained eye can stand back and see the uniformity in a stack of stickered lumber. It's a beautiful thing when it's all nice and even.

WoodMiller

Seems to me there are three 'customers' in this deal for paneling.  Obviously, the gentleman having his wall paneling made is the main 'customer'.  It's incumbent on the customer to communicate clearly what he wants, and then to make sure he got what he asked for.  I'm assuming this customer supplied the logs and the sawyer was employed to saw them.  Was he getting paid by the hour? By the Board Foot?  If by the hour, he had plenty of time to saw the dimensions the first customer wanted, provided the logs supported those dimensions with no or minimal wane AND the main customer clearly communicated "I want all widths to be either 4, 6, or 8 inches, plus or minus an eighth (or whatever the dimensions and tolerances needed to be).  In this instance, the sawyer is a 'customer' in that he has to be supplied with materials and specs to do the job, and has to make sure he has gotten those details.  If I was sawing these logs and getting paid by the board foot for the final 3 widths, I've got to adjust my pricing for the waste in extra edging or for the time spent in sorting and edging jacket boards and flitches, etc.  I'm also responsible for tolerances in the final product as to width and thickness - but not usually length (I didn't buck the logs).  The dry kiln/planing/moulding operator is the third 'customer' and should clearly spec his desires to the original customer for dimensional tolerances required for the best price.  The fact is, SOMEBODY has to pay the price to get those boards to their final dimensions and the main 'customer' - the one with the final product has to make sure he/she got what they ASKED for, because they are the ones paying for it.
WoodMizer LT40 Superhydraulic LT40HDD51

red oaks lumber

woodmiller
there really isnt anymore time spent sawing these logs or any others. if i sawed this job i would first look at the logs to see roughly what my sizes will be then let the sawing begin, if i decide im sawing 4" 5" 7" which size of log comes up to saw next looking at it determine real quickly the size of cant to make and go from there. not really any differant than sawing every day, you still need to have a target size when sawing , if not then i guess you create something similar to this whole topic we are discussing.
the experts think i do things wrong
over 18 million b.f. processed and 7341 happy customers i disagree

LOGDOG

Make no mistake about it ....There's ONE customer in this scenario and two "vendors". The sawyer is a vendor and Red Oaks (the kiln/planing mill) is a vendor. Plain and simple. Regardless of what I'm charging on the job, it gets done right and accurately. The notion of "Oh, you wanted 'accurately sawed lumber'? Well that will cost you more..." is preposterous.

I sawed commercially for years with my Woodmizer's and if my lumber was 1/16" shy I got docked by the lumber brokers and the graders. I learned how to saw accurate lumber. Period. Whether or not I came out profitable at the end of the deal.

Cedarman

About 12 years ago when we had our mill in Alabama, I called on a company to see if we could sell them lumber.  They told me a price and I thought it too low.  What could I do to help them make money?  I asked them what widths worked the best for them.  There were 3 or so that kept their waste to a minimum.  I then asked if they would split the savings with me.  This company had been in business for 50 years and the owner said that no one had ever offered to do that.  We agreed on a price and so we added them to our customer base until markets changed and they shut the cedar chest factory down.
Even though the customer had been in business for 50 years, my knowing what can help a customer make better decisions paid off for us.
The customer may know what they want, but never realize they could have something better if only the seller "sawyer" would know what to ask.
It is my job to know the specifications that work best, what tolerances are satisfactory. Those specifications and tolerances are what I need the customer to tell me.  Sometimes they won't tell unless I ask.

Once I know the specs and tolerances, it is our job to meet them.
It seems such a simple concept.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

WoodMiller

I guess my point is that communication and understanding the customer's needs is vital to a successful production.  The idea of there being just 'vendors' and 'customers' in a transaction is only true if there is only one vendor who produces an entire product for the final customer.  In this transaction, the sawyer is producing a product that is used by Red Oaks to produce a final product for the ultimate customer.  That makes the sawyer a 'vendor' to Red Oaks and Red Oaks is the sawyer's customer. 
I've got no issue with producing accurate lumber, but I also have no issue with producing lumber that will clearly meet the customer's minimum and maximum requirements - but I have to know what they are.  If the requirement for width is 6 inches and I produce a board that is 5 15/16 wide, I haven't met the minimum and the customer can reject the board.  If I cut it 6 1/8 to insure that, by the time the customer takes delivery the width is still at least 6 inches, I've exceeded the minimum and should get paid for it.  If I remember correctly,  Red Oaks said his tolerance is +/- 1/8 to 1/4 in width.  If that's what he needs, I'll give it to him, but only if I know what the tolerances are.  Also, Red Oaks, do you have a different tolerance for circle mills?

Also, when setting up a cant - grade and stress play a big role in sawing the cant.  So, if I'm to saw for grade and width, and I want to minimize stress in the board, I don't see how I can set up a cant to always give me the minimum width as the grade changes on the sawn face.  That means I've got to saw oversize and edge to final width.  If I don't have an edger, that's a slow and relatively expensive process on the mill.  BUT - if that's what the customer (the one who is paying me for the service wants) - I'll do it.
WoodMizer LT40 Superhydraulic LT40HDD51

red oaks lumber

why would you grade saw a customers pine? or grade saw a customers wood that will be clearly used in a size specific  manner?
the only one that benfits from grade saw in the hardwood mills, thats it. where else can you sell some thing that doesnt exsist?
the experts think i do things wrong
over 18 million b.f. processed and 7341 happy customers i disagree

Jim_Rogers

If we go back to the original situation the customer who was talking to the sawyer, told him I want three sizes but they can be random. That to me is saying two different things. If it's random width then it's random width. If he wanted three sizes then it isn't random width, it's three sizes.

It's like saying I want my house painted red orange. Well which is it red or orange? You really can't have it both ways.

What the sawyer obviously heard was "random" only, and that's what he did. It was most likely wrong but that is what he did.

When I begin a job with a new customer or a previous customer, I go through a list of questions that I have typed up on a sheet.
The first question is what thickness do you want your lumber?
The second question is what widths do you want your lumber?

If some of the logs, or all of them, are hardwood, I explain to them that the standard for softwoods is that it usually comes in even widths, such as 4", 6", 8", 10" and 12" widths. But with hardwood you can get whatever width that the log will make. But that I try and do it in full inches, such as 4", 5", 6", 7", 8", 9", and on. But I try not to do between inches like 4 1/2" or 5 and 1/4" like that.

Most customers understand this. And another question I ask if hardwood is being sawn is "odds and even widths ok?" This just follows up on the width question to make sure they understand that they will be getting odd inch width pieces, in their pile.

I write down all these answers on the printed paper to make sure that I have it right before they leave my sawmill yard.
And these are the guidelines I use to do my best to saw the lumber the way they want it.

I am currently sawing out some red pine and white pine logs for a future timber frame, on site. The customer didn't talk to me. I was told to do the job by the builder's project manager. He told me to saw as wide as possible. And he provided me with a stock list of timber sizes for the future timber frame, which hasn't been designed yet.

On this list were 7x7 and 7x9s. So that means I'm going to have some odd width lumber. If I have a good 1x7 piece 22' long, I'm not going to saw it back to a 1x6 to make it a softwood standard width, because they told me to saw it as wide as possible. To me that meant odds and evens were alright with this order. I had to use my own judgment on that question. And so far no one has said that odd widths were wrong.

I don't want to say the customer was at fault, but he did say, in my opinion two different things. If it was me I would have not let it go and I would have questioned him more to make sure I understood what he wanted. The sawyer who did his job didn't do that. So that could be his fault for not following up on the subject of widths.

But even if he did hear the word "random" he should have sawn it to a softwood standard, such as 4", 6", 8" and up. None of these 5" or in between sizes should have been in the pile. That is what standards are all about.
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

WoodMiller

Hey, Red Oak -
You're right, of course.  I thought about that after I went to bed last night.  You're talking softwood (plantation trees) and I don't saw much softwood at all - mainly hardwood - grade and/or utility/fence boards.  I guess I assumed you normally dealt with hardwood, too, given your handle.  Trying to educate customers on the sawing standards and grading rules is a hard task.  If the customer is not totally ignorant of them, he/she often has misinformation loaded as fact.  A real good example is hardwood vs softwood standards.  Any Sawyer worth his sweat should understand these standards and try and educate the customer.  BUT, in the end, the customer should get what he asked for, even if it's wrong.  Case in point: sawing FAS grade white oak boards into fencing - it's his wood, and his money, so his call.
WoodMizer LT40 Superhydraulic LT40HDD51

red oaks lumber

the customer said he wanted 3 sizes and random width is ok. what part of that is confusing? when he told me that my first thought was this. he wanted 3 sizes but didnt care what those 3 sizes were to be .
when in doubt ask questions
the experts think i do things wrong
over 18 million b.f. processed and 7341 happy customers i disagree

red oaks lumber

woodmiller
i actualy  came up with red oaks lumber  when my great great  grandfather settled in this area there was a picture with his homestead  on the hillside in front bordered in white rocks there was the name of his farm "red oaks farm"  from that moment i decided to call my buisness  red oaks lumber. at the time i never even thought about that might sound like all we do is rol :)
sorry for the short history bit
the experts think i do things wrong
over 18 million b.f. processed and 7341 happy customers i disagree

Magicman

My original take was that he wanted 3 sizes and he would install them randomly on the wall as paneling.  Same as I will do with 4 different sizes for my Cabin wall paneling.

Different words mean different things in different context.  Communication and understanding is the answer.

This all reminds me of something I read long ago:  "I know that you think you heard what I said, but you do not understand that what you think you heard is not what I meant".
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

customsawyer

The only thing I can add is there is some frustration in following some sawyers as they tend to give the whole industry a bad name in some circles. This is one of the reasons that I try to help a less experienced sawyer. If I can help them to produce better lumber then it tends to come back to me. Most times it is a job that is to big for them so they call me to come help or when the logs are to big. ;D This is one of the reasons that I love this forum as we are all able to help and to learn from each other, thus making us all better at what we do.
Red oaks I would be willing to take a lesson. ;D
Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
www.thecustomsawyer.com

red oaks lumber

customsawyer.. there ain't no teachin you but, i;m willing to give it my best shot :D
the experts think i do things wrong
over 18 million b.f. processed and 7341 happy customers i disagree

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