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Building with field stone, and site wood framing

Started by MbfVA, November 14, 2017, 06:54:10 AM

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MbfVA

One of the slip formers websites I found referred to using fly ash to augment the concrete.  There is a major coal fired power plant about six or 7 miles from us on the James River (yep, not good for the air), so that got my attention.   I also recall that a Home Depot being built not far from here years ago suffered a major problem when fly ash enhanced concrete was used in its slab, and a bunch of racks collapsed when the floor gave way under them right before opening.

Anyone have experience with that?
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Don P

it is used as a superplastisizer, reduces water. Do not try this at home, if they muffed the chemistry chances are not in your favor. There are spectacular concrete mix failures very occasionally. We had bad aggregate in a run here, the quarry got into rock that popped concrete on a bunch of work.

Speaking of flyash, making charcoal has made my mind wander. Using wood waste to run a gasifying generator while pulling the biochar off that process would mean that where coal flyash is a problem, folks have been emailing asking for biochar for their gardens. I did some research on application rates, up to 10-20 tons/acre would be of benefit. The waste from wood fired electric production would be a nutrient rather than a pollutant, and it sequesters the carbon that the tree captured from the air.


Scott and Helen Nearing from the old Mother Earth News days, yes they were big proponents. I have used the technique for simply extending concrete the way country folk across the world often do... stuff as many rocks in while you're pouring. IIRC concrete standards limit aggregate to 1/3 wall thickness. If the rocks get bigger you are sort of crossing over from concrete to masonry work. If the inspector wants to stickle call it rubblestone and the 16" thickness rule comes in. I've slipformed at 12", so there is room for judgement calls.

You can haul bags of quickrete but I order the sand and gravel by the truckload each and just haul Portland cement by the bag, then mix it by 5 gallon bucket ratios. I've probably fed my mixer for the last time, but they make money and young'uns every day.

MbfVA

 if they make the wall requirement too thick, then the economic advantage of using rubble-stone and or slip forming goes away.  Slips away.   Of course the wall could still be a good looking wall if the right rocks are used.
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Don P

That's where veneer comes from, a non structural face on a concrete or masonry wall.

I'm no mason so a 16" thick wall using the rocks laying around isn't that hard. If you tear down an old stone foundation they are at least that thick. I've cut holes in the form to let big rocks poke through in a crawlspace.

here's that cite;
R404.1.8 Rubble stone masonry.
Rubble stone masonry foundation walls shall have a minimum thickness of 16 inches (406 mm), shall not support an unbalanced backfill exceeding 8 feet (2438 mm) in height, shall not support a soil pressure greater than 30 pounds per square foot per foot (4.71 kPa/m), and shall not be constructed in Seismic Design Categories D0, D1, D2 or townhouses in Seismic Design Category C, as established in Figure R301.2(2).


With ashlar, coursed, stone masonry the wall thickness can drop to 12" IIRC.

I'm actually not a real fan of slipform for the finished face of a wall, I don't mind it for a serviceable side. That's just taste, there's nothing wrong with it. That's where the form on the backside and laying the face came from. That's all part of the time, resources, money equation.


samandothers

That equation and one related to size, quality and money are to be obeyed!

MbfVA

considering that the earthquake of a few years ago was a total surprise (Building site is about 25 miles west of here, but we got damage here), I'm going to check what seismic zone we are in.
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MbfVA

 I certainly wouldn't want even the veneer stone to fall off during one of those. Wood is starting to look better.
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MbfVA

 Photos of a property on the market in the Charlottesville area, called Neve Hall by its builder.  I believe it qualifies as at least partly a rubble stone build; circa 1924, though I think the oldest part may be older:



 
Owner is a retired UVA art prof; convenient to C-ville but with challenges.



 
Fairly small scissors trusses used in old chapel section; how old? 1924?  Metal used in joints, so it is post & beam, not TF.



 
Lightened this one a bit, shows direct connection of truss to top of the stone wall; or is that really masonry it is anchored in?  Looks almost like brick or even wooden wainscoting material?



 
Rubble stone by appearance, and possibly slip formed?  Opinions?



 
Rubble, Rubble--stones in trouble
•• Did they quit in mid-job?
Or "...Where has all the mortar gone...When will they ever learn?
(To pay the mason on time!!)
[I heard a Kingston Trio song on the radio as we left the house]

Actually I think that may have been a sloppy attempt at repair and much more modern.

They want $850K for this place on 20 acres.  Major rail line about 200 ft behind and US 29 in front.  The inside is a complete need-to-gut job, trust me.  Thomas Jefferson designed & installed the kitchen, I think.  Not sure he got paid, either.

On topic, wondering if this is typical of rubble stone and/or slip form masonry.  Comments?

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Don P

Look at the pic with the window and leaves on the exterior, that is ashlar, coursed, masonry. One over two, two over one, level by level, interlocked. The joints are struck not cast, this is neither rubblestone nor slipformed  :)
The truss heel looks like later mud birdblocking... I'd get a moisture meter into that wood before purchase!

I suspect you are in seismic B, might scratch C, I'm running too slow to check, chapter 3 of the IRC has that map.

samandothers

MbfVA
What process/materials will you use to water proof your basement area?

MbfVA

 interesting, thanks Don. I wasn't sure that was a real pattern that I was seeing.   they certainly did not do it with Gerber stones.

it was just an open house, we went by out of curiosity  with the primary reason being to see the Stone work. I salute the person who's willing to take on the renovation job that is required there.  I wish I'd taken more interior pictures--it was truly weird in places.  Owned by an art professor, that's the story, completely backed up by the inside.  Wahoo.

The search for viewing a Rubblestone/slip form job continues. At the same time, we're going to look at superior wall.

Waterproofing still concerns me.   I think someone made a suggestion above.  A wet basement is not something I want to deal with.
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samandothers

I have avoided Wahoo comments thus far.  I am down in SW Va and a Hokie!  That is an amazing old home. 

I am not familiar with methods to water proof but need to research for our poured basement walls.  Thought you might have some thoughts/opinions.

MbfVA

 Probably best for both of us to look to higher authority there.  My father always found basement waterproofing to be something requiring a lot of care and attention.  I am very concerned as well, since we will be building into the side of a hill in front.

I have always been told that the primary way to avoid basement water problems is to keep the water away from the wall to begin with--planning, drain tile, proper grading, etc.

Companies like b dry make a lot of money when mistakes get made  in the building process.
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landscraper

I've seen that house plenty of time heading north from Red Hill on 29.  The parish house at St. John the Baptist Church on Dick Woods Road (5 miles or so west) is maybe a nicer example of that "style" of stone construction from the same era. 

Firewood is energy independence on a personal scale.

MbfVA

Thanks, probably passed it many times.  I'll check it out.  This one, or at least the rear part, was apparently a church at one time.  I am seeing more n more converted churches in the area.  Combination of shrinking church activity and old buildings being cast off for newer and often larger ones (enter the MEGA church).

Earlier this year a local church was auctioned (soon to be replaced by a new and larger one elsewhere) and brought almost $600K, but the buyer could not perform.  It resold a few mos ago for $235K.
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MbfVA

Following up on building into the hill, here is about the building spot and it shows the view we are trying to capture:



 

The stuff past the fence was cut days later but this was the last photo from the site that I had.

The Southwest Mountains which run from Albemarle up through Orange County and a bit beyond, are tiny at this distance but just visible in the photo if you look carefully.  They are not the "mountain views" I wanted (Don P has them), but they are the ones we will have.  The river valley almost makes up for it.

There is a maybe $6 MM home on 600+ acres hidden in the trees on the hump just off center of the view, maybe 1000 yards away and across the river.  Home of the engineer who invented Michael Bloomberg's "black box" used by brokers.  He will not like seeing our lights, since there will be few if any trees blocking the view between us.
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samandothers

Really a nice setting for the view.  Sounds like the view will be fairly protected by the large parcels others own.  What is being you, are you on top of a ridge or off on the side somewhat?

When do you hope to start building?

MbfVA

The land behind looks like this (taken from the same direction, abt 150-200 ft back):


 

Flat leading up to it, so access will be good.  We are sort of on a ridge, which overlooks the Rivanna River nicely.  That is the river valley in the background of the previous photo.

Should have started by now.  If we do not use Superior wall, I will be wary of pouring concrete in the winter.  The basement slab could most likely be done later without any disadvantage except not having the storage & access.
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samandothers

Very nice.  Will you contract/build or have someone perform that role?  We are gathering estimates at this time.  Man housing has gone up since we last built 25 years ago,  :D

Don P

Nice looking site!
Superior requires slab placement quickly, that is all that is holding the walls back from soil pressure. The same is true for a typical basement though. You do have a footer down providing resistance to fill but that wont hold it back if it gets saturated... roof sheathed, no gutters, big rain and there is a swimming hole behind the wall. Plan on putting the slab in and the floor above sheathed prior to backfill. Bracing the box.

There was a series of pics making the rounds a few years ago. One of the basement waterproofing companies had cut a trough out of the slab along the walls in a superior basement with the intention of installing a subslab drain and sump. The wall bottoms simply moved in to the new slab edge wherever they could. It was a tilted buckled mess.

MbfVA

I was afraid you'd say that, regarding the slab.  Oh, well, we'll just have to be careful about the wx.

That sounds like B Dry, since their modus operandi is something along the lines you describe.  Do you recall if the instant problem was with the slab or with the Superior wall system?  Wouldn't that be hard to sort out if the water was coming in at the intersection of slab & wall?

Prevention
Prevention
Prevention
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MbfVA

Quote from: samandothers on December 13, 2017, 09:30:31 AM
Will you contract/build or have someone perform that role?

We will, with lots of help of 3 friendly Class A guys, including our designer.  If we can ever nail down a design and get started.  The distractions are constant, including a couple of big ones just up.
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Don P

I don't know the particulars of that case, more pointing out that there is nothing holding the wall bottoms in place until the slab is poured.

If you go with Superior I would pitch the excavation to a drain rather than making it dead flat. Then level the gravel under the slab. Protect the perimeter drains with gravel wrapped in geotextile, convert to solid pipe for the run out to daylight and it looks like a long enough run that a cleanout or two might be in order. While those trenches are open run drains for the gutters as well. Avoid the temptation of dumping the gutters into the perimeter drain. They are trying to keep the subgrade dry, make the roof water go away in its own pipe.
Once those drains are away from the house and below it you can alternatively go to slotted pipe in a gravel bed trying to lose the water underground which is preferred to runoff. However run the pipe out to daylight so that it can get rid of major water when needed. rodent screen the end of the pipe!

landscraper

Quote from: MbfVA on December 13, 2017, 02:20:05 AM
Should have started by now.  If we do not use Superior wall, I will be wary of pouring concrete in the winter.  The basement slab could most likely be done later without any disadvantage except not having the storage & access.

Well we are not exactly in Fargo :) , plenty of good weather during a typical winter in Fluvanna for pouring concrete well within accepted temperature ranges, just might have to wait for a window in the forecast.  There is a civil geotech engineer who lives just down the road from you who offers testing and monitoring (soils, drainage, concrete, etc.) services for residential projects, cheap insurance in my opinion to have a trained set of eyes on the work as it goes in.  If your contractor is from Fluvanna or Albemarle odds are he will know this engineer already, if not let me know and I will PM his name to you, I have no pecuniary interest in doing so.  Pretty commonplace anymore around here to get third party inspection either in lieu of or in addition to some of the county inspections.

Firewood is energy independence on a personal scale.

MbfVA

Clarification from the Superior Wall rep has helped me better understand things.  He says it's OK to wait on the slab (tho' as you all have cautioned, watch out for big rain, etc), but it has to be done before backfilling the walls.  I don't he means a long time.

I like Don's details regarding the slab (thank you as always!).  Trying to avoid gutters much as possible in our design--I hate 'em.  We have a nice downhill run coming off the proposed north end of the home which should make doing needed drainage easy without erosion.  Details to be worked out.
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