What type of tree? Question to those with knowledge of australia

[Pullinchips]

I was watching a show on fire and wildfire in austrailia and they were talking about fuel build-up and the severe fire threat b/c of it.  So they did prescribed burns to reduce fuel loading.

Being a forester here in South Carolina(usa) i am qurious and interested in trees. Anyway my question is what is the tree that i saw on the program?

When they showed the burn the men with drip torches walked by this small tree (i beleive a seedling).  The focus was not on the tree but the man putting in a line with the torch so i only saw it breifly.  It appeared to be some sort of pine or conifer?  It almost looked like a longleaf pine(Pinacea Pinus palustris) (if you donot know what these look like do a search online or go to the longleaf alliance plenty of pics out there) it had a single terminal leader and needles that appeared to be 12-16" that hung down around the terminal bud.  Please give me any infor as to what this could be or where to look online, i did a search trying to find austrailian tree pages and had no luck with pics and so forth.

Thanks and shoot any ideas as to what it might be. i have none, i mostly only know south east trees and some ornamentals and western species.

Great Fourm
Thanks Nate

[Jeff]

I wonder if it might be Radiata Pine

http://www.forest.nsw.gov.au/publication/forest_facts/pine/radiata/default.asp

http://www.forests.act.gov.au/radiatapine.html

[sawmillsi]

Hi Nate,

Australia grows 3 types of pines commercially (pinus radiata, pinus elliotii and pinus carribean - spelling might be off). These are not natives!

But we also have natives that look a lot like pine trees, these are the Casuraina's. Probably about 80-100 different types within the casuarinace (spelling) family.

They look like they have needles, but really they have very tiny scale like leaves between the segments (the individual segments are about 5-30mm long and join together to look like needles about 15-20cm long).

All of the prescribed burns I know of are in native forests a plantations rarely build up enough fuel to warrent this, so chances are it was a casuarina.

Sorry my spelling is out, but its been a while since university and only foresters use these terms when speaking to other foresters (too technical for the average logger) and I am currently in Angola (Africa), so I don;t have the chance too often.

Simon

[Pullinchips]

I checked the sites that you listed jeff.  The pics that were there even though were far away it did not apper to be the "pine" that i saw.  Thanks though for the site i will look more over it, at least i have a site from the austrailian gov to look at, more than i had before. 


Simon, the show said what you did about the fuel loading, that it was sparodic and would not carry fire well and would burn out in many palces.  Pinus ellotti is slash pine a native here to the south eastern us i am familiar with it.  But isnt austrailia to dry to get good enough groth out of this tree for plantations.  The site jeff posted was talking about rainfall totals in the 25 inch/ range hardly enough to get good growth out of.  It needs moisture higher in the soil.  When planted here on the sandhill of SC, if in deep dry sand grows good for several years up to maybe 20 then just about stagnates on all but the best sites.  This is b/c the tap root is shallower than longleaf. Some trees i have cruised were 30+ years and around 35-45 total feet some larger and some smaller. 

Thats what i know about slash, but like i said on the right site it can out grow other souther yellow pines, just not in dry sand.  Oly saying that b/c of the totals for rainfall that i read on that page.

Let me know what you think, having local knowledge of the area, since i don't and correct me if im wrong and tell me i'm an idiot for putting it in print.

-Nate

[Ianab]

Hi Nate

I'm not in Aussie, but we have a lot of the same trees. I'd also guess it was Casuraina they showed. None of the true pines are native to the Southern hemisphere. Mostly the pines in this part of the world are grown as short rotation plantation forestry. They would be harvested before there was much fuel buildup. Still fire and plantation pine are not a good mix 

The native Aussie forest has evolved to handle regular fires, and by setting small ground fires it's possible to reduce the big catastrophic fires.

Not all of Aussie is a desert either, some of it is rainforest territory, so all sorts of climates / forest exist in different areas.

Cheers

Ian

[sawmillsi]

G'day Nate,

Pine plantations (exotic) are not really good performers in the land of oz.

The slash pine is grown north of about 35 degrees south (latitude), radiata pine is grown south of this.

I don't really like pine trees all that much (but recognise the need) and prefer native forests to plantations, BUT, for all of the pine plantations I have seen in Australia (and pine logs on trucks and at mills), I can safely say that pines don't grow good in Australia.

Mature plantations of slash just north of Brisbane (QLD), with about 1.8-2.2 meters of rain per year and good soils (for australia) get to about 40-45cm DBH at about 20-25 years (could be longer or shorter, not sure).

Radiata in NZ really grows well!

I have seen pine in australia at about 1.5 meters DBH, but they were planted in 1916 as the farmers sons were going off to WW1 and there were only about 10 of theM (trees).

We have native pines in Australia (they are conifers, so could be described as pines i suppose), and even make plantations with one of them. The tree is Hoop Pine (Araucaria cunninghamii).

The rotations are about 40-50 years. They are a sub-tropical and tropical tree.

Si

[Arthur]

Simon

I got involved with radiata a few years ago and found it not worth milling here in Australia as the distances from the plantations to the treatment and processing plants and the price they would pay reduced the price to lessthan $50 per cubic meter for sawn timber.

There is a plantation near Walcha of some 8million trees and im told of one in South Australia which they recon can supply enough sawn timber for Australia that we dont need to mill anything else.

Seen one end of it and half a day later passed the next corner so its got some size to it.  Problem is its owned by one company who only have the one mill so I presume most of the plantation will go to waste as will the Walcha one do to nobody being prepared to mill it.

arthur

[Arthur]

Nate

We have some of what I think you are talking about growing here so will take some pics of the tree and surounding ground and upload tomorrow.

Common name here is she oak but I dont know for sure.

arthur

[Arthur]

some pics of Forest Oak  - Casuraina family.















most of the other 100 plus are similar.

arthur

[Ianab]

Hi Arthur

I know what you mean about the radiata.
Unless the trees have been form pruned in the first 3-7 years of growth there is little clear (valuable) wood in them. An unpruned tree is all low grade sawlog or pulp wood.  :(
The secret is to prune them for clearwood production and get a 6m veneer grade log out of each tree.
Low grade logs = $50 / ton
Clear logs = $300 / ton

Then if harvesting and transport comes to $45 ton... well it justs not worth the effort of growing them unless you have the good logs.

Ian

[Arthur]

Ian

dont know why they are grown when there are so many others that return a far higher return for the same involvement and costs.

it amazes me the shear size of some of the plantations the forestry departments have put in without thinking of the long term returns.

The radiata in the Walcha region was all government.  They even built a mill twenty years to early to mill the pine.  Its all been sold off to companies who thought they would make money and ALL have eventually gone bust.

If the NSW Forestry had just left the regrowth of natives there at least we would have something of value in another 50 years instead of just another fire hazard.  The plantations are now here to stay unless the tax payers are screwed for more to clear them as they are now self seeding with no body managing them.

This is what the NSW Forestry is claming to be their managment of the forests.  I can realy understand the Greens sometime.

arthur

[Tom]

That's strange that you don't like Radiata.  I've heard so much good of it and its fast growth from NZ and Aus. articles.

The problem we have with Greenies here is that they want hands Off.   Looks like they would be happy in Australia.  :D

[Ianab]

90% of the NZ timber industry is Radiata pine  :
Doesn't mean we LIKE it .

The timber is soft / sticky and stains or rots as soon as you look at it. Even with those drawbacks it's used for almost every purpose here  : It does take preservative treatment well which is a bonus.

It's planted because it make the most sense commercially. A 25-30 year rotation means you harvest in your lifetime. Arthur is right that there are many other trees that will produce better timber, but in 60-200 years time. Are you going to invest in a venture that doesn't give any return for 200 years?

Having said that there are lots of guys, especially in the farm / forestry side of things that plant other more interesting things. Eucalypts, walnuts, cypress, Tasmanian Blackwood etc. Mostly small scale stuff but good for portable sawmillers 

The pine plantations in the central north island are on their 3 or 4th rotation since originally being planted in the early 1900s. But to maximise returns the work has to be done early in the cycle or you are left with low value logs. If it's going to a pulp mill anyway it doesn't matter, but most plantations are managed to provide a high grade sawlog, a low grade sawlog and a pulp log from the top of each tree.

From the conservation point of view it's a mixed blessing - sure you've got miles of monoculture plantation, but it does mean that 99% of the remaining native forest can be preserved without any logging. The hands off approach is what the NZ forest has evolved under as most of it is temperate rain forest - fire risk is fairly low in most forests.

Cheers

Ian

[Tom]

We have a lot of Pine in our economy too.  The Southeast USA is noted for pine.   

I don't know what we have that is the equivilant to Radiata but it sounds like Loblolly pine .  It is a fast growing pine that self prunes less than Long Leaf and Slash, the two better pines.   I guess one advantage we have is that different parts of the country favor different woods.  We have Hardwood areas in the Northeast where things like Oak are the staple and different conifers in the North west.

To Bad that Radiata has such a reputation.  Our Southern Yellow Pines are prime trees, as far as I'm concerned.  They do best in a monoculture and plantations.  That is what so many non-timber people have a gripe with.   It is managed like most farm crops, plant, grow, clear-cut. 

[Arthur]

Tom

nothing realy against radiata or moncrops like a lot of pines are.  We also have a number of hardwoods here that thrive in plantations.  The rare ones however dont which makes them so expensive.

Im sorry to preach again but her we go.

We have 100 acres, and most of my relatives also own similar properties some even owning 1000+ Ha.

I have bored all to death with sustainable forestry with most now being converts.  We own our land not for ourselves but for our childrens children so investing for 50, 100, 200 or more years seams a good idea.

Im not preaching GREEN.  You can sustainably forest and make a good living on 100acres, so if what you are doing, farm, forestry,etc,etc is sustainable and your family can continue to make a good living far into the future why not???

Some of the relatives have already put their properties into Trust so the children get the benefits but nobody can touch it, not even the tax man.  We almost had our property in trust but I bought EcoSaw to promote the sustainable foresty.

Its not the business but the philosophy of the thing which has me by the shorts.

arthur

[Tom]

I think the "for the children's children" is a thing that most tree farmers believe in and are willing to prepare for.   I have mentioned about my place before that I might be able to harvest what I plant but it will probably be for someone else.

Even monocultures in plantations must be planted with the rotation being considered as being outside of a human life-time.

Sustainable Forestry is a big thing in the right circles.  US Foresters preach it every day.  You will notice that we have philisophical support from organizations that believe in sustainable forestry and we offer them support by being a cheering team too.

When you sign on next time, look at the bottom of the entry page to check on these organizations.

The Forestry Forum is brought to you by:
The Timber Buyers Network
The Michigan Forest Resource Alliance
Michigan Sustainable Forest Initiative(sm) program

[Arthur]

Tom

I beleive that most members of the FF are supporters of sustainable forestry but there are a lot of visitors who havnt even had their first thoughts about it.

Whenever I sell a mill I always ask what it is they are going to be milling and what advise can we help with.  I recommend a number of places to look, the FF being high on the list with a number of others like the Tasmanian University who with the CSIRO do a lot of research into wood use and building.

We have a lot of small bridges being changed from wood to concrete yet all the research so far shows that the corectly built and maintained wood bridge will out last the concreate ones.  Something to do with the give and flex that a wood bridge has.

Others I recommend are all to do with plantations and sustainable timber.

We have a meeting this weekend involving Green Peace, FSC and a number of heads of department from forestry across the south pacific to discuss the harvesting, wood sizes and what the end products look like.

Its the education thats needed.

arthur

[Tom]

Florida went that Wood-to-Concrete bridge thing years ago.   Now it's going back the other way.  The State found that the wood out-lives the concrete by leaps and bounds.  Wood is supposed to be experiencing a come back on secondary roads and woods roads.  The major high-ways are still concrete.

We thought that the small mills would get a boost from the State to provide the timbers, but, it turns out that the stuff is getting shipped in.  I guess the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.

[Ianab]

Arthur

I completely agree with your management philisophy for an established forest. It makes sense both economically and enviromentally to manage things like this. To cut down your forest and plant a monoculture plantaion makes no sense from any point of view.
However starting a forest  from bare land is different, can you run a business with expenses and no income for 100 years ? :
It would be great to be able to grow Kauri or Rimu in a plantation style forest, there are small stands in local parks here are 70-90 years old, and maybe you could do a first production thinning in them now. But the trees have only just begun to form heartwood. Give em anouther 100 years and they will be impressive trees. Another 300 and they will be mature. But they are never going to be a commercially viable crop :(
I guess there are many different ways to manage forestry, but the most important thing is to ensure that there ARE forests and they are managed / harvested in a sustainable way. Which one is best... depends doesn't it.

Cheers

Ian

[Arthur]

Ian

Bare ground opens a few possibilities.

dedicate some to the long term and just enough for the short term cashflow.

Thats what the problem has been in Walcha.  They put millions of trees in without forcasting the various harvesting requirements and the costs involved.

If they had planted the trees spaced over a longer period they would have a viable harvest for many years and if managed with replanting would have a sustainable system with income year after year.

as it is now we have a 10 to 20 year harvest period then nothing for some time.

Comes down to lack of knowledge on someones behalf.

We are seeing this locally now with the Local Forestry redefining a plantation as pulp just so they can meet their contracted quota.

arthur

[Jonathan]

That is a Casuarina cunnighamiana, the River She Oak, or Australian Beefwood. Very polular in East Africa, more amenity than commercial. J

[Pullinchips]

has been almost a year on this post and have not got my answer untill now i was flipping through the book Conserving Forest Biodiversity and saw a short tree that looked like what i saw on that tv show almost a year ago.  Read the caption and it is a grass tree (Xanthorrhea spp.) according to the caption. So all i have is a common name and Genus but the pic is what i saw the trunk looks like a palm of some sort but i did not see that originally, but the needles are like longleaf pine in the pic at least.  With a large bud like a candle on a longleaf. Needles appear to be 24"+ .

Mystery solved!

-Nate

[Tom]

I would never have guessed such a thing existed.  :D