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Finishing Eastern Red Cedar

Started by Cedarman, January 12, 2007, 10:07:58 AM

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Cedarman

I get requests for information on what to put on cedar for paneling, furniture, house siding, logs rough and planed. 
I have never finished any cedar and know very little about it except that polyurethane is not to be used on outdoor stuff like picnic tables.
So what is good stuff to put on things indoors, house siding and picnic tables and swings. I assume that these need different types of finish.
What mc does the wood need to be?
What works and what doesn't work.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

Tom

Eastern Red Cedar is one of the most forgiving woods I've ever seen.  What most people do with polyurethane that causes them the most trouble is to lay it on too thick.  It comes from the can so thick that it lays on top of the wood.  The finish is slick and shiny but is no more than a layer of plastic.

If one will thin the Poly Varnish so that it is absorbed by the wood and then "build" it up to the preferred texture, it will withstand the elements much more.  Spar Varnishes are the same. 

If these varnishes begin to come loose, it is difficult to repair them and re-finishing is about the only way to get the look back again.

I've used Eastern Red Cedar right out of the log in an emergency. Glued it up into a panel and it is still good to this day.  I wouldn't recommend doing that, but I was impressed. It dries quickly.  If you air dried it like you do pine, you should be pleased with the outcome.

I also try to leave unfinished Eastern Red Cedar exposed somewhere in the piece to allow the Cedar Oils to escape.  I don't finish the inside of a cedar chest or the panels of a closet for that reason. Mineral oil rubbed into the raw wood will protect it and re-volatize the wood too.  I'd rather do that than sand it to get the smell back.

TexasTimbers

Wow. It's a big topic. I have been experimenting with alot of finishes last year and the one that leads the pack thus far for both interior and exterior (my experiments remember) is made by DEFY.

I am not a sealer expert but from what little I know, in order for a sealer to be an effective UV blocker it must have solids in it. the more solids the more effective obviously. paint works great!  ;)
Of course we don't want to change the color of our beautiful ERC and certainly shame on the man who covers it up with paint. Unlike WRC, ERC does not take a brownish stain well without looking ugly IMO. Defy has several options for us ERC lovers.

Clear UV blocker. If you can accept the fact that you will have to re-apply it once a year, you can have your cake and eat it too, with the yearly maintainence caveat. No re-sanding etc is necessary but you must apply a the brightener, which is not expensive like $20 per 1000 sq feet because it mixes 5-1 with water. then re-apply the clear UV block.

The other option is to use the Hardwood stain which is actually a reddish tint (only one I have found) but yearly maintainence is not necessary. More like 3. I don't have 3 years of empirical data here this is according to the rep I spoke with.

I am going to go with the stain because the stain is acceptable regarding the change in color. I'm always looking to discover that elusive CLEAR and HIGHLY effective UV blocker, but my research indicates the two are not found in the same bucket.

HTH


The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

Bibbyman

When Mary needs some little table or bookshelf for the house she will normally make it out of ERC.  Her favorite finish is Johnson's paste wax.  Yea,  looks like it's the same stuff you'd use on your car.  The wood keeps its color and has a soft shine to it.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

DanG

Well, I won't be making many contributions to this new board, but I'm enjoying it.  I  don't have much woodworking experience, but I do knock together a little something for the house now and then.  Recently, I built a little shelf for the bathroom, to hold some of the shampoo and conditioner bottles that a certain someone seems to find necessary. ::)  I made the thing out of ERC, and it turned out looking pretty nice.  At least it looked ok until I got to the finishing phase.  I had some good quality spray laquer that I'd had good luck with on some hardwoods, so I took the easy way out and squirted that stuff on it.  Bad idea!  I guess the laquer  reacted with the oils in the cedar, or something, but the whole piece took on an ugly blueish-grey color.  I'll never use laquer on cedar again. :-\
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

Larry

DanG, I had a commission to build a 100 of these little boxes.  Think I built maybe 115 just in case I had any rejects.  Wasn't much money in it so I shot lacquer.  Went on good and has lasted well on the few extra's I kept.




Now...we have this member in north central Arkansas...think his handle maybe starts with something like Arkie.  He builds cute little cedar benches to sell to them rich Yankee tourists using some top secret miraculous home brew finish.  He reports this finish will keep the reds and purples forever.

I was hoping he would see this thread and pop in to divulge his secret...guess not.  In any case I think if maybe 4 or 5 of us caught him in a dark alley some night we might be able to get that secret. ;D ;D
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Jayson

Sure would like to know what is in that home brew. I recently used some Lands Ark exterior oil and I really like it. It is a little pricey and I think it requires a yearly update. According to what I read it can even be used as an end sealer. It is all natural and smells totally awesome. Easy to apply, easy to repair and makes the shop smell like a tasty tropical beverage. How many varnishes can you say that about? It is a penetrating oil and makes the grain really "pop". I've used on redwood, oak, locust, cedar and heart pine with great results. I wouldn't suggest it but I think you can eat it in small quanities, and I bet it smells better than it taste. Thus far I have resisted the temptation to try it.

Larry

DanG, I've been thinking about why you had trouble with lacquer on cedar.  I'm guessing but could the cedar have been a little on the wet side or perhaps you sprayed on a humid day?  If so, the ugly might be attributed to something called blushing.

Found a book answer about cedar problems.  Cedar has chemicals in it, which prevent either lacquer or varnish from hardening properly.  The book answer to prevent problems was to put on a sealer first, than the top coat.

Dropped off a load of cedar to a person that builds craft items all winter for sale to tourists in the winter.  His suggestion was to make sure the wood is dry, and spray a light coat of lacquer to provide a seal coat.  Come back with a finish coat couple of hours later. 
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

TexasTimbers

It's oily. The oil seems to evaporate with the water eventually. Probably the water goes first then the oil. I am not saying I know this for a fact but I do have the experience with the wood to know this. You can cut wet and in 3 weeks in the summer Texas heat it's light as a feather. Dosen't seem to be enough weight to have any of that oil left.
I will snapp some pictures of some older ERC furniture I made between 12 - 15 years ago. Some of it turned brown some of it is deep, rich red but none of it is the same as when it was sawn.
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

metalspinner

Anyone tryed sealing the cedar with shellac, then a top coat of anything else?  I thought shellac stuck to anything.  This wouldn't hold up outdoors, but for inside stuff, this would be worth a try.  Of course, all the wonderful cedar smell would be sealed up. :-\
I do what the little voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

Larry

The book I was reading specifically recommended shellac as a seal coat for cedar.  I have sprayed shellac on cedar in the past with good results, so I don't see why it wouldn't work well as a sealer.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

DanG

Another cedar lesson I've learned, is that flourescent lights will fade the color just like sunlight will.  I was working on another shelf unit but had to set it aside for a while.  It consisted of some long pieces and some shorter ones, so I stacked them on a table for a couple or three weeks.  All of the bits that were exposed to the lighting had turned brown, including all the edges and ends.  The long boards that were partially covered by shorter ones looked like glue-ups of two different types of wood.  It took quite a bit of time with the belt sander to get the colors consistent again.  Keep this stuff covered up until you get a finish on it.
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

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