I think alot of people don't like to see a forest with alot of dead stuff laying

[Rod]

But don't the dead trees and tree tops rot away and free the trees that are living?

It looks like to me if you take all the dead trees and tree tops out of the forest then the living trees wont have as much to feed on.

Some might think that a forest with alot of logs laying on the forest floor might be a waste,but maybe its not,because that leaves organic fertilizer for the living trees.

well thats my 2 cents

[Tom]

Logging tailings (tops etc) will rot down and return nutrients to the soil but they also protect seedlings  from browsing animals until they become large enough to fiend for themselves.  What some "neatniks" think of as a disaster area is actually a nursery for the new forest.

That doesn't condone bad logging practices but it does show that some people who complain of the "mess" do't know what they are talking about.  It's usually these "squeaky wheels" that cause most of the trouble in the press.

[MemphisLogger]

Rod,

I always recommend to my woodlot clients (or their wives) that leaving snags, logs and tops (in piles) is good for their migrant songbirds.  ;)

I always try to look at harvesting in terms of how well one can mimic natural forest disturbances as these are the conditions that our endemic species of wildlife have evolved to fill.  :P

If you take away all the woody debris, not only are you starving the soil, you're also starving the birds that eat all them wood munching bugs that break it down for the trees.  :'(   

Scott

[Cedarman]

One of the things we have done in So Indiana with the Lincoln Hills RC&D is to have what is called a media forestry field day.  We have a Saturday field trip for the media and politicians.  We invite them all to come so that we can show them a good logging job with all its visual unappeal.  We then take them to one done 5 years ago and then one 10.  After 5 years we repeat the process.  We encourage them to take pictures and compare to 5 years ago.  We explain the logging process, best management practices and we have professional foresters answer their questions.  We have had some good press over this.

We feel we must do this pr to counter all the feel good stories by environmentalists that only repeat what they have heard from people with a never cut a tree agenda.

[Phorester]

Amen to Tom and Cedarman.

[Barkman]

What do you think of leaving any standing dead?  I always take down anything that could be dangerous before I bring equipment into an area.  But, what about "habitat trees," I think they call them.  You know, large dead trees with no top, no limbs and lots of woodpecker holes.  Leaving them kind of seems a waste to me, since you're making more shade, depriving the soil of nutrients, and increasing the fire hazard.  But, I also see the bird peoples' point that if you want to see woodpeckers etc, you have to leave some.  I'd be interested to hear what other people are doing and what they tell customers about it.

[Tillaway]

We generally require tops and limbs be left in the woods on the ground yarding sides.  That is anything 5" and smaller, cull logs and snags.  Snags can only be cut if they are deemed a safety hazzard.   The snags eventually wind up incorporated into the soil and throw little shade before they fall down.  They don't use growing space.

[Ed_K]

 I even leave large logs at times. If I can't get an 8' log from a cut tree (crooked sweeps) we cut them out and leave them. Landowner asks, why'd you leave that log? Its salamander habitat  ;). We try not to bring down the straight dead one either, bird habitat. Some times if I have the ok, I push tops into piles for songbirds, rabbit and mice habitat.

[Cedarman]

I do not know the validity of this information, but I have been told that it is good to leave 1 den tree per acre.  Most of the woods I have been have a dead tree here and there as a normal situation.  I guess trees get sick and die.  Too dry, too wet, too hot , too cold, too many bugs etc.  Doesn't OSHA require that all dangerous trees be removed before logging begins?

[Barkman]

I do not know the validity of this information, but I have been told that it is good to leave 1 den tree per acre.  Most of the woods I have been have a dead tree here and there as a normal situation.  I guess trees get sick and die.  Too dry, too wet, too hot , too cold, too many bugs etc.  Doesn't OSHA require that all dangerous trees be removed before logging begins?

Trees don't just die because they get sick.  Sometimes...they are murdered!!!  Quill pigs (porcupines) are a major reason for the standing dead on my woodlot.  They love to chew the bark from Pine and Popple especially.  When I first bough this land, there were many hulks of big dead Pine trees that I assume they had killed.  Several of these big dead Pines had dens in stone walls right nearby.  They seem to chew the bark off of anything though.  I've shot them out of Oak, Hard Maple, Beech, Cedar, and Apple trees as well as Pine and Popple.  I've shot 26 of them in two years here and still see freshly damaged trees on a regular basis.

[Ron Scott]

We leave 1-5 den, snag, or cavity trees/acre unless they are determined to be a safety hazard. They are marked before the timber harvest and designated for leaving in the contract. There is a $50.00 fine if they are negligently cut.

We also leave 1-5 grouse drumming logs/acre, selected slash piles, and maybe an occassional high stump for "bear scratching", etc. Wildlife habitat is designed and implemented with the timber harvest.

See the Forum's Animal Inn Thread.

[Bro. Noble]

A landowner needs to think about what is important to him in the long haul.  Maximum return,  wildlife,  appearence?  The goals don't necessarily have to one or another,  but might be a comprise of all.  He might have different objectives for different areas.  When we log along roads where the timberland is visible,  we do a little more cleaning up and leave some nice big trees that would otherwise be harvested.  I like to look at them when I drive by too ;D

[Ron Wenrich]

As for nutrients, the fines (twigs and small branches) contain about 90%.  The boles only contain about 10%.  So, taking all but the fines shouldn't hurt from a nutrient standpoint.

[Phorester]

Leave a few for wildlife.  Dead trees don't cast much shade, so they don't interfere with regeneration or neighboring live trees.  OSHA doesn't say anything about taking out dead trees.  Forest fire fuel, yes, but you take care of the ones that interfere with fire control and leave the rest.

[Ron Wenrich]

The OSHA "Danger Tree" rule
(29 C.F.R. § 1910.266 (h)(1)(vi)) states that:

Each danger tree shall be felled, removed or avoided. Each danger tree, including lodged trees and snags, shall be felled or removed using mechanical or other techniques that minimize employee exposure before work is commenced in the area of the danger tree. If the danger tree is not felled or removed, it shall be marked and no work shall be conducted within two tree lengths of the danger tree unless the employer demonstrates that a shorter distance will not create a hazard for an employee.

A danger tree includes any standing tree that presents a hazard to employees due to conditions such as, but not limited to, deterioration or damage to the tree, and direction or lean of the tree


For more info:  http://www.state.vt.us/labind/Vosha/dangertrees.htm

[Ed]

Please note this is my own property.
If its on the ground & not good for firewood, it stays there.
Dead trees that are still decent firewood or possibly a log, get cut & removed. The brush is piled up for rabbit-tat.
I leave dead poplar standing, not good for firewood by the time its dead. Also provides the woodpeckers plenty of food & nesting space.
"Den trees" are left alone unit they are dead, then Mr. Racoon is sol.
So I guess you could say I have a messy woods!

[SwampDonkey]

Deadfalls and large wood debris are also home to alot of amphibians that feed on insects and help work the top layer of soil. This top layer of soil is the richest because it's where organic material gets mineralized for plant growth. Insects and arthropods are also involved and become a food source for salamanders.

Red Backed Salamander

  More info on the Red Backed Salamander in Northern Temperate Hardwood Forests

[Ron Scott]

You might say that the Old Growth forests that many of the environmentalists keep suing the National Forest system management for are "messy forests" as only nature is allowed to take its course.  ;) Fallen trees,  logs, woody derbis, etc are not removed from such stands.

[TreeSpyder]

In one sense the nutrients belong to the site, that the tree mined them from.  If the tree grew, and Iron was deficient in the area.  In order to grow the tree would need to locate through it self and friends and associates to assemble enough Iron to live.  Even dropping it in it's leaves into it's mulch slurry covering the soil sea of nutrients, then taking it back up again to grow some more etc.  At the end of it's life, of borrowing the Iron from the Earth for successive uses; it would Naturally oblige and leave the precious Iron for the next generation. 

No part of a forest system is an individual.

[SwampDonkey]

Tree mineral mining.

More true with Nitrogen then many other nutrients. The iron (a micronutrient) that is present and very common is constantly weathered from rocks present or washed in from the flow of water from uphill. The potassium comes in rain water as well as weathered from rocks such as feldspars common in igneous rocks. Phosperous as essential (respiration, photosynthesis) as Nitrogen weathers from certain rocks like Apetite (most common of all phosphorous-bearing minerals, used in fertilizers). And of course nitrogen (ammonium)has to be made inorganic by decaying microbes that take it from the air, including those symbiotic microbes in alder root nodules. Taking minerals from the soil as plants do, then removing the plants (trees) doesn't mean they aren't replenished. Although, I don't have the answer to how long that may take (alot of variables). Oh, and the sharing between neighbors likely happens with microrhizal fungi that share root surface area and sometimes root grafting.  Iron's not all that precious though. And don't forget our little arthropods and amphibian friends. ;D

[Cedarman]

One of the reasons that cedars are found in limestone country is that limestone when it weathers does not have a lot of other minerals in it relative to the other rocks. Mostly Calcium, Magnesium.  Cedars outcompete other trees on the poorer drier soils. Soil is formed when the calcium carbonate is dissolved leaving the clays that were blown in at time of deposition.

[Eric_Jensen]

You guys went and made me open a book again :P to understand what you're talking about.

from page 76 of Abiotic Disorders of Landscape Plants
"Because iron is immobile in plants, the older basal leaves remain green as young leaves become chlorotic...In many areas iron chlorosis is the most common nutrient deficiency seen in landscape plants...The concentration of iron in soil is usually adaquate for plant growth, but various soil conditions can make the element unavailable to plants.  For example, the availability of soil iron decreases as soil pH rises above 7.0 and it decreases in cold, wet, or poorly drained soils.   Symptoms of iron deficiency are variable within trees, between adjacent trees, and between species."

Tree mineral mining...interesting niche  http://www2.hawaii.edu/abrp/Technologies/phyextr.html                                             

[SwampDonkey]

That's abit opposite of cedar stands (northern white) up our way. But, the soils are rich with organic matter because of slow nutrient cycling (alot of water because of weathered clays as mentioned). Nutrients are tied up in rotten vegetation and microbes. Some cedar stands here are on lowland and some more upland mixed with hardwoods. There are cedar stands here well over 120 years old, some over 300. But, non-the-less on soils with calcareous slates and shales. There are some lime quarries too, established on sites that were once cedar stands. When they mine the lime out they fill up with water. There is cedar in southern New Brunswick but sparse  because the rock is sand stone. Its more prominent in the northern parts where calcareous rock is more prominent as well as the sugar maple/ yellow birch/ beech forests. I've found limestone with fossils in areas over 100 miles from present sea level.  Our largest river system was once an inland sea. The science of this stuff is always fascinating. Too bad the average forester never really gets a chance to make use of this knowledge in his every day job. :  :-\

[SwampDonkey]

Just doing some further digging and adding to what was said above.

From 'Properties and Management of Forest Soils'

Deficiencies of iron are mostly problems of nurseries, shelterbelts, shade trees, poorly sited plants, or pioneer vegetation on calcareous soils....Symptons in angiosperms (broad leaved plants) are green midrib and veins with lighter green, yellow-green, yellow or white interveinal tissue. The majority of reports of micronutrient deficiencies in forests concern plantations [even when native they may not be truly indigenous genotypes] or disturbed stands, but even among these stands micro nutrient deficiencies are not common...

As an aside to the note in square brackets above, it was found that New Brunswick genotypes of black spruce did the best on a wider variety of sites it was planted throughout the maritimes.

From 'Nature and Properties of Soils'

Efficient varieties of plants respond to iron stress by acidifying the immediate vicinity of the roots and by excreting compounds capable of reducing the iron to a more soluble form, thus increasing its availability. Solubility of iron decreases with increasing soil PH.

Iron is important for N fixation and in the formation of chlorophyl. It's only used in small quanities, thus a micronutrient. It's probably more important than I expressed earlier, but not usually limiting in normal growing conditions.

[Cedarman]

The soil under cedars becomes more basic as the tree grows.  The more basic, the less iron is available. So cedars condition the soil to keep away competition.

[Eric_Jensen]

"I think alot of people don't like to see a forest with alot of dead stuff laying around" 

These are the same people that pay the lawn guys to rake up and haul off the leaves every year.  Then turn around and pay the bark guys to bring in mulch.   Maybe even pay an arborist to have their trees treated for nutrient deficiencies 8)

[TreeSpyder]

Hey Eric!

Locally; our palm fronds may start yellowing, real slow, or in spots, at tips etc.

Sometimes that is from a shortage of some nutrient, the plant is translocating from it's own leaves to keep the lead tip growing.  If we trim these fronds off, more yellow fronds result, as the plant tries to survive, still translocating the scarce elements.  If, we hit the area for lawn, or even for the palm, with some fertilizer, that doesn't contain the needed nutrient; and especially if we have nitrogen in the fertilizer to hop up the green color/spurt in the grass, trees, flowers etc.; we have made things worse.  Now the nitrogen calls for more growth, but in the balance our needed nutrient is now in lower % in consideration of the balance of the elements.  We now have more of a deficiency, perhaps even that were trying to fix with the fertilizer.

According to Star Trek we and all life we know are carbon units.  Bacteria can't make carbon, nor animals, they must depend on getting in some food chain; that gets carbon from the plants.  Plants are the only ones that can draw the essential life building block, from thin air.  Just as bacteria are needed to fix nitrogen byproducts in the soil to a useable source (something that animals or plants can't do); so to plants fix carbon from the carbon dioxide byproduct in the air.  If woods is completely cleaned up/ this carbon too must be remined; to have available to rot and break down and give the essential life compound to the tree/soil associates etc.  Extremes are usually wrong, as they have no buffering zones. 

i think some wood should be left whole, some chipped in the woods.  Anything else is jsut translocating resources from this part of the system, risking it's loss; to move the elements someplace else.  Mimimal impact with our harvesting is best when ya can get it to play out like that! Especially when it can cost ya less to do so!  Changing the tension in any 1 point in a 3 dimensional spiderweb, changes the tension at every point. 

Or, something like that,
-KC

[Rod]

here is something I've noticed in my woods.When I get the dozer guy to clear out the logging roads it looks like the trees grow alot faster.I don't know if this is true or not cause I have really haven't did a study on it.But he can drop the 12' blade on the dozer and clear out about 1 mile of logging roard per hour. :D

[Ron Wenrich]

Your probably getting a strip that opens up the tops and allows for crown expansion.  That will increase your growth until it closes back in.

[woodhick]

Rod I know this is off topic from the post you started , but what part of WV are you located in. ???

[bberry]

    There are a lot of people who think of themselves as environmentalists and wander through the woods and dislike bending over and/or pushing a branch aside. They feel it's up to the land owner to make the forest into a martha Stewart forest with everything prim and proper. No limbs or litter on the ground for them to trip on! What the he** are they doing on our land without asking. Sometimes they ask but then come back and tell you how to manage your forest. I like to tell them to send a letter to God complaining about the blow downs and lightning smashed trees. I wish they would go back to the city. I don't tell them how to manage their asphalt! Some states are passing laws requiring written permission while on anothers property. We are getting these so called environmentalists creating problems when their hidden agenda's are to get their hands on private property. Some are advocating huge new Parks so they can bus in thousands of tourists to see the wilderness. As landowners the time has come to hold out our hands and say the fee for hiking, hunting, bird watching, cross country sking, etc. is 5 bucks of more to help pay the taxes and up keep on the land since it costs more to keep the land than we get out of it. After I put my land into tree growth to lower the taxes the town assessors circumvented the law by raising the evaluation on everything else. This is only commonly done in small towns and state officials know all about it. The paper companies don't own anything else in town so the assessors can't get them. That means a poor working class man in town can't get a profit because the town takes it all over the 50 to 60 years it takes to get a crop of trees. The governor and state officials say get a lawyer and take it to court. Does a poor man have the money and time? Shame on the state officials for allowing a law(tree growth) to be applied by different standards from town to town.

[Darin]

Kentucky has a very good website on Habitat How To's.
Cavity trees , snag trees, rabbitat, etc, etc.

http://fw.ky.gov/howto.asp?lid=631&NavPath=C108C177

[hillbilly]

           Ive recently kind uf stumbled or fell into a deal where a organization that has unlimited amounts of resources{timber} that needs to be salvaged blowdowns and such like that some dead standing trees or trees that have just started dying .It is a pretty big  varible as far as we would call salvageed timber . They have their own team of foresters to check on things from time to time and mark some of the mature timber that they would like to harvest
            There is alot of small stuff in spots that has fell down or been blowed down over the years and this is some thing that they dont want disturbed they allso want to leave a den tree every so many 100ft for squirrels and such most of the white oak timber is left since it is more hearty and the buggs dont seem to bother it quite as much and the white oak species seem to produce more acorns for the wild life any way.