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Why did the auto makers drop the small diesel trucks?

Started by brdmkr, May 04, 2006, 12:01:20 AM

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brdmkr

I was thinking today :o  Why did the auto makers drop the small diesel pickups?  I would like to have a larger diesel truck, but likely won't buy one unless something unusual happens.  However, it made me wonder about the market for the smaller trucks.  Seems like increasing gas prices would make those little trucks popular.  Has anyone heard any talk of bringing them back?   Were there mechanical reasons that these trucks never really caught on or was this all just consumer demand? 
Lucas 618  Mahindra 4110, FEL and pallet forks, some cant hooks, and a dose of want-to

sawguy21

I suspect that with the narrow difference between the price of gasoline and diesel in north America, most consumers found they could not justify the upfront cost. It would take too long to recover except in the larger work trucks. The smaller trucks also seem to appeal more to the urban dwellers who object to the noise and smell of the diesel. They are not perceived as enviromentally friendly.
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

TW

I am quite sure that there is no technical reason because small pickups are sold new and are popular in my end of the world.
wolkswagen caddy, toyota hilux, isuzu ?? are popular ones. They are quite expensive because of the big demand. I wish I could afford one.

Ianab

I think it's just about your local market, all the major brands here in NZ sell some sort of small (2.5-3 litre diesel) pickup. I think the Ford one is a re-badged Mazda and the GM is a re-badged Isuzu and most can be had in petrol or diesel / 2WD or 4WD / Standard or twin cab etc.

Must just be the US market doesn't want them? The American style pickup is rare here, just too expensive and hard on gas for us poor Kiwi's  ;)

As far as the environmental stuff goes, diesel appears dirty because you can see the smoke, but you cant kill yourself with diesel exhaust, yet you can with petrol exhaust. That tells you something about whats coming out the tailpipes  ???

Cheers

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Ron Wenrich

I had a Toyota diesel back in the '80s.  The problem they had was engineering.  They simply dropped a diesel in place of their gas engine with no other alterations.  I was knocking out main transmission bearings every 20,000 mile.  The first time they took care of it (warranty), the second time I got rid of the truck.

I think the demand argurement has little merit.  We can only buy what is made available. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Ianab

QuoteI think the demand argurement has little merit.  We can only buy what is made available.

Chicken and the egg I guess... they dont sell them cos there is no demand, there's non demand COS they dont sell them  ::)
But the Japs make them by the millions, just they dont send you guys any...

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

breederman

I had a Datsun in the 80's.  It was the worst vehical I have ever owned.  No power, and would not start in cold weather even when plugged in all night.  The wife got real tired of going out and towing that thing down the road to get it started evevery morning. >:(
   It did get around pretty good on slippery roads as it did not have enough power to spin the wheels. :D
Together we got this !

sawguy21

Diesel is more popular in other countries because generally, the fuel is cheaper and more plentiful than gasoline. From what some of you say you are paying for fuel. miledge is a major issue too.  :o
We in North America are used to cheap fuel and  long open roads that do not lend themselves well to smaller underpowered vehicles. They are mostly used in urban areas although that is changing. Still, I don't want to drive halfway to Vancouver in 2nd gear. :D
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

MemphisLogger

I'm investigating the importing of a front clip from a Toyota Surf from Australia so I can drop a diesel in my '94 Toyota Pickup then converting it to run on fryer oil.

My understanding is that Toyota never offered the diesels on regular pickups in the US (they did on their 1 tons) because they couldn't meet California fleet mileage requirements.

Have y'all ever seen the Top Gear episodes on the Toyota Surf? If not, check 'em out at

Top Gear Toyota Episodes 1 and 2
 
Scott Banbury, Urban logger since 2002--Custom Woodworker since 1990. Running a Woodmizer LT-30, a flock of Huskies and a herd of Toy 4x4s Midtown Logging and Lumber Company at www.scottbanbury.com

thedeeredude

What I wouldn't do for a Tacoma or a Colorado with a 4cylinder cummins. :)
I think diesels gained a bad rep and now its stuck with people.  They think all diesels are super loud, stink and blow black smoke in your face.

breederman

 And people say that there is nothing good on tv any more! ;)
Together we got this !

Gary_C

The number one reason is unless a car maker can permanently increase market share, a switch to smaller pickups will only lower their gross sales and that would make wall street investors very nervous.

Any switch to smaller, cheaper vehicle is not a good thing for a car manufacturer.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

sawguy21

Would they not gain credits with the EPA to apply to the larger less fuel efficient vehicles?
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

brdmkr

Quote from: UrbanLogger on May 04, 2006, 09:55:04 AM


Have y'all ever seen the Top Gear episodes on the Toyota Surf? If not, check 'em out at

 

Now I want a toyota!
Lucas 618  Mahindra 4110, FEL and pallet forks, some cant hooks, and a dose of want-to

johnjbc

My Brother has a Ford 150 pickup with a 4cylinder Cummins in it.
Had to put it in him self. Its a little noisy  but gets over 30 MPG. He has been running it for 4 or 5 years now.
LT40HDG24, Case VAC, Kubota L48, Case 580B, Cat 977H, Bobcat 773

Gary_C

sawguy

Could they take those EPA credits in and cash them on Wall Street?  ;D
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Reddog

Emissions, The small trucks and 1/2 tons fall under car standards. To much soot to pass the standard at that time. Now that the new 3/4 and above trucks have to pass it, something may change. The rest of the world allows more soot in exhast.

slowzuki

Something that bugs me is after fighting the bad image of smoky diesels is the cummins and powerstroke owners who chip their trucks to up the fueling and blow HUGE clouds of smoke when driving around town.  I know many of hte guys and they think its funny but I ticks me off.

Save your chip switch for the highway when you're towing a giant load up an 8% grade, don't be fogging it of the stoplight downtown, the pretty redhead standing at the corner ain't impressed with your 400 hp and 900 ft-lb of torque when she is choking.

crtreedude

Lots of diesel pickups down here - good vehicles and last forever. Particularly the Toyota Lancruiser Pickups.

An 20 year old will still set you back about 10,000 dollars - no kidding. Diesel trucks don't devalue down here - they just keep going...
So, how did I end up here anyway?

sawguy21

A Landcruiser pickup has not been available here for a long time. Believe it or not, Nissan still sells the Patrol in Oz and most are diesel. They were last sold in N.A. in the late 60's.
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

Vermonter

I saw a diesel toyota landcruiser in Canada at a mine.  I contacted Toyota and they said they only outfitted them on commercial vehicles.  I've wondered if I could buy an engine and transmission for my tacoma in Canada and set up my own.  The carmakers that sell in vermont have to show that they sell a certain amount of high efficiency vehicles in order to sell the diesels, so VW chooses not to sell diesels here.  I contacted the state government and told them they couldn't understand the math if they were comparing emissions from motors, without comparing emissions per mile.  I can't help but make them mad everytime I talk to them.
New homestead

scsmith42

Reddog hit the nail on the head - the reason that you don't see many small dlesel trucks is because the motors will not meet the EPA tier II and III emission standards.  Other parts of the world don't have this problem.

A friend of mine had a Volkswagon Rabbit diesel pickup truck a number of years ago.  That darn thing got close to 50 MPG.  There would be a heck of a market for these today.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
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UNCLEBUCK

Want to see pollution ? Sit next to about 150 trucks waiting to load produce in California ,trucks idling so the driver can stay cool , refrigerated trailers cycling up and down running non-stop to stay cool, gag cough, yuck!

I love diesels and if Ford had the brains to put a diesel in the ranger they would be the number one selling truck !  :)
UNCLEBUCK    bridge burner/bridge mender

brdmkr

Quote from: UNCLEBUCK on May 04, 2006, 10:31:56 PM
I love diesels and if Ford had the brains to put a diesel in the ranger they would be the number one selling truck !  :)

That's what I mean.  You'd think someone would figure this out.  Small trucks are really popular.  Imagine what you'd have if you built one that got 40 mpg.  I can't help but think it could be done.  It seems like the marketing guys would be all over it.
Lucas 618  Mahindra 4110, FEL and pallet forks, some cant hooks, and a dose of want-to

Ianab

So.... in order to prevent pollution the govt makes you buy a 6 litre diesel truck instead of a 3 litre diesel truck  ???  .. Ummmm  HELLO  ::)

Most of them now are intercooled turbo engines, you wouldn't know they were diesel except for the noise at idle

Cheers

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Bill

I've become more of a diesel fan the more the govt says they want hybrids. Here's the way I think it happened.

Europe and the rest of the free world mandated ultra low sulfur diesel some ( 5 +/- ) years back. We refused to reciprocate. ULSD reduces particulates ( soot )/smoke and odor ( and spares the cute redhead on the corner  ;D  )

We ( read that as EPA ) then institute Tier II bin 5 ( or whatever they call them ) that says diesels pollute to much ( and everyone should buy hybrids ). Manufacturers suck it up because they can't get ULSD diesel here they can't make EGR or catalytic convertors work with sulfur - kinda like what happened with lead . So no one can meet the new standards because we won't produce/supply ULSD and no light duty diesels are produced. Tier II bin 5 says light vehicles ( I think up to 7500 lbs ) have to meet the newer tight standards and I think the weight requirement goes to 10000 lbs for 2007.

The standards are due to get tighter though I don't understand why they seem to be testing them the same as gas engines. Diesels run at lower rpm's per given mile when geared correctly and are much more efficient than gas engines so they use less fuel per mile. The eggheads at EPA and some outside scientists say gas engines are cleaner because there are less pollutants - duh - take the sulfur out  >:(  .

Annoys the begeebers out of me to hear one side only presented to us like its the complete truth. I'm getting really suspicious when the media only tells one side of an issue. . .

FWIW - a year ago I bought a 2001 VW diesel for around town and trips. Although VW has had a sketchy reputation for quality I do much of my own work and have a friend that can handle the rest. I'm getting 42 mpg for what I call town and country driving and 52 mpg at an illegal speed on the interstates. I've also seen reports of other VW's like mine getting up to 60 (  8)  )mpg if they stick to 50-55 mph on the interstate. Methinks diesels ought to be the technology we're pursuing. Especially with things like biodiesel from algae showing much more promise than ethanol - even the algae byproducts after taking out the oil can be used to produce ethanol.   :)




ellmoe

    In the mid 80's I bought a Ford Tempo with a diesel (3 cyl) engine. I trading a gas hog Cadillac (10 mpg) in on the Ford. I consistantly got over 45mpg with a 5 speed manual.The fuel savings alone made my car payment. It was slow to accelerate, but would run 90m/hr (I was told ;D) without breaking a sweat. With a 16 gal tank I could go 500 miles between fill-ups. After I awoke one day with three trucks, two cars and a boat I tried to sell that little car. Tough job! If you can recall the last gas "crisis" and GM's responding to it by converting those big gas hog engines to diesel and all the problems resulting with them, you know whyI could sell that car. The reputation for diesels in the car buying crowd was ruined. All the money I saved in fuel costs was lost in the resale. Perhaps memories are changed now, but it was difficult to almost give a diesel car away then.

Mark
Thirty plus years in the sawmill/millwork business. A sore back and arthritic fingers to prove it!

Engineer

I would be all over a Tacoma or Frontier with a small diesel.    I can't afford one of the big diesels.

SwampDonkey

I'm going for a 4x4 Tacoma in mid-summer. Those things are all 4 door and 6 cyl now. Wish they kept with the 4 cyl. Those 6's are hogs on fuel, although they are trying to convince people thay get 30 miles per gallon, anyone I talked to that have one broke in is doing good at 21 mpg.

On the Charlottes we had a Landcrusier and it was a tank as far as being reliable. Except one time we were headed to the ferry from Morsby and a rear tire come off and passed us on a sharp turn. The get away tire struck one of the reflectors that warn of the turn and made a skid mark along it. I still laugh over that. We were only going about 50 km/hr at the time.  I think that same week we had 3 flats out in the boonies. We were lucky to even have a garage let alone fuel out there. If you was looking for parts, forget it. We had lug nuts from 3 different model vehicles to keep the tires on her. :D :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ron Wenrich

I bought a Tacoma last year with a 4 cyl.  I always buy a stick transmission.  Milage is about 22.  These trucks are now more the mid-sized trucks.  You can't get a small truck anymore.   >:(
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

TW

Unclebuck
I think Ford Ranger has diesel engine on the European market but I am not sure.

DoubleD

First define what you intend for SMALL engine  ;D What you call truck here is generally called "pick up" and has a diesel engine in the 2.0-3.0 L range, there is a steady market for those kind of vehicles. They are usually used for work to transport things. Another kind of vehicles are called SUV (sport utility vehicle) same as pick up but without wagon and are used in the city so they pollute a lot :(. Here bigger engine are used in trucks in the 4.0-13.0 L range but you need a driver license to drive them.
Wannabe a sawmiller

SwampDonkey

I checked Toyota Canada's web site and the Tacoma's are all 6's. My uncle got a 2 wheel drive Tacoma last year and it was a 4 auto. I ran a 4 cyl standard Tacoma at my former job and I got 28-32 mpg with it.

Ron, your right about them all being mid sized now. The local Ford dealer that sells Rangers only have one color (red) and all standard. I don't care for them,  besides the cab looks like a square box. My uncle was looking at them and Dakota's and I said let's get outta here and head for the Toyota lot. With our dollar being higher than 2 years ago, you'd think our prices in Canada on them Tacomas would drop about $5000, but they haven't locally. I know I can get mine for $3000 less in Fredericton than locally. They have a take'r or leave'r attitude. Se la Vie boys! :D I got my Dodge $5000 cheaper 8 years ago in the city. It was the same price as a Tacoma in the local dealer at that time. Pure craziness.  I'm waiting for the GST to drop 1 %, that'll save another $350. ::)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Tillaway

Ford was going to put a six cylinder verison of the 6.0 Powerstroke in the F-150 and Expedition.  IHC , Navistar, even built the plant to produce it but Ford killed it at the last minute.  Last internet rumor I saw was Toyota putting it in the Tundra.

I bought the 7.3 litre Ford because, well, it gets almost the same mileage as the six cylinder Toyotas.  Mine averages 18 to 19 and will crack 20 if I keep my foot out of it on the highway. 
Making Tillamook Bay safe for bait; one salmon at a time.

getoverit

Back in 1981 I bought a Isuzu 4x4 pup that was a diesel. It went through glow plugs like water and wouldnt pull a greasy string out of a dog's butt. Loads of black smoke everywhere you went with it, and you could forget about passing someone on the highway with it unless you had miles to do it in and nobody breathing down your neck. Needless to say it was grosely underpowered and the mileage wasnt all that good either.

It soured me on diesels, but the 89 Ford 350 I have with the 7.3 diesel is a real workhorse and has power to spare. Doesnt get all that great mileage, but it sure will pull a heavy load. Doesnt smoke a bit except when I first start it up. After that, you wouldnt know it is a diesel except for the sweet sound it makes.
I'm a lumberjack and I'm ok, I work all night and sleep all day

UNCLEBUCK

My glow plugs quit a couple years ago so I give a squirt of ether for the first start of the day if it was cold . I get 21mpg on a 7.3 f-250 diesel . Old smokey they call me in the morning. I can clear the entire parking lot out of the Super 8 motel in Grayling Michigan if I eat enough continental breakfast waiting for my ride to warm up  :D
UNCLEBUCK    bridge burner/bridge mender

getoverit

Quote from: UNCLEBUCK on May 05, 2006, 11:48:36 PM
I can clear the entire parking lot out of the Super 8 motel in Grayling Michigan if I eat enough continental breakfast waiting for my ride to warm up :D

Lactose intolerant perhaps?  ;D
I'm a lumberjack and I'm ok, I work all night and sleep all day

UNCLEBUCK

UNCLEBUCK    bridge burner/bridge mender

Bill

If you could cut back on your sulfur you wouldn't be doing that  :) .

barbender

Man, UncleBuck- that sounds like some powerful medicine!
Too many irons in the fire

MemphisLogger

I wish we could get the corporates at the manufacturers to read threads like this--might give them an idea of what folks really want  ;)

Sorry to take this discussion off-diesel but  ;D

I probably own too many cars but I just love engineering perfection . . .or at least a good shot at it. Currently, I own in degree of antiquity:

1964 VW panel van--classic split window lines, good cargo capacity (4 guys and all their surfboards/coolers) and a wheel base that lets you park wherever a bug can. I'm in the process of restoring this one right now. Plan to drop a VW 1.9TDI in it next winter.

1976 VW Westfalia wo/pop-up--fold down bed, coat closet, sink vanity cabinet and louvered windows. No pop up top, so it doesn't have the drag of the fiberglass and gets up and goes with 2.0 Type IV. Great for hauling hippies to music festivals and/or hauling hikers to the trailhead.

1978 Ford F600--Inline 6 with a serious granny gear in a New Process (need I say more?). 

1992 Honda Civic VX--one of only a couple thousand made in 1992 to meet CA fleet requirements. It has a 1.5 liter V-TEC engine that gets 55 MPG when you follow the rules but runs like a rally car when you step on it. Rice rocket racers love it for it's stripped weight and full aerodynamic belly pan.

1994 Toyota Pickup--last year they made the traditional HiLux style truck in the US. IFS suspension isn't as good as solid axle offroad but the 22RE motor has good torque and aftermarket parts are bountiful.

1996 Subaru Legacy Wagon--got this one for the wife. The AWD is a true pleasure on a wet country road but all the microchips on it scare the bejeezus out of me.

I think I have to many vehicles ???

   
Scott Banbury, Urban logger since 2002--Custom Woodworker since 1990. Running a Woodmizer LT-30, a flock of Huskies and a herd of Toy 4x4s Midtown Logging and Lumber Company at www.scottbanbury.com

Bill

A little off topic but I just saw a thread ( ? ) on Dateline tonight about ethanol. Appears that Brazil is using sugar cane ( could be most any green crop - prairie grass is even doable ) to produce 100 million gallons ( barrels ? ) of ethanol per year and there fore has eliminated their reliance on any foreign oil !

Cool

Ron Wenrich

Yes, but their reliance on oil is a lot lower than ours.  The big deal now with some talk show hosts is that if Brazil can do it, so can the US.

No way.  We would need to plant corn on every square inch of the US, including Alaska, and still need 50% more land.  MTBE was added and stretched our oil by 20% (I read that somewhere).  Ethanol production isn't up to that standard.  1 gallon of gas has the same energy as 1 1/2 gallons of ethanol.   Actual is $7.24/gal   Read this link:  http://zfacts.com/p/60.html

Short term solution is conservation, but no one wants to talk about that. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Ianab

I saw a simalar story on Brazil and ethanol fuel here a few weeks back. Came about from the first 70s oil price spike. The Brazilian gvmt said, 'we dont have any money to buy that expesive oil, what can we do instead?'. Because they started 30 years ago they now have an infrastructure in place where all service stations have ethanol pumps and a lot of their new cars are built to run on it. What the program said was that ethanol cars got less MPG, but the ethanol was proportionaly cheaper. Performance was about the same. So there was no reason NOT to buy a car that ran on ethanol.

I dont know your figures Ron, about total oil usage in the US. But if you are burning large amounts for power generation you may be correct. But using less energy and alternative energy sources is the key. Oil is just going to get more expensive untill other sources start looking competitive.

Cheers

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Vermonter

I found this page about toyota diesels and started combing completed sales on ebay.  Obviously, there is quite a bit of demand right now, even old, hammered 2wd mitsubishi pickups are bringing astronomical prices.  Rumor has it that toyota has talked about a 4wd diesel tacoma, but as it seems, cost will be high on this too.  That duramax is a dream, but I really don't need a huge truck.  Two trips with my 4cyl tacoma seems to take care of the occasional big load.  At 32K+ for a new one, it's out of my price range anyway.  I wonder if the high prices of diesels are on account of demand (every hippie around here wants to run biodiesel, even me), or if it is because of limited production.
I found a 91 tacoma with a 2.4 factory diesel on ebay, looks cool, looks hammered.
New homestead

MemphisLogger

Scott Banbury, Urban logger since 2002--Custom Woodworker since 1990. Running a Woodmizer LT-30, a flock of Huskies and a herd of Toy 4x4s Midtown Logging and Lumber Company at www.scottbanbury.com

amberwood

Interestjng comment on Ethanol..over here we make it from sugar cane,just like brazil. We have so much capacity that the price has been kept right down. Our petrol is limited to 10% ethanol by law after some operators starting blending extra ethanol to increase margins on the petrol!! As you may be aware ethanol dissolves certain plastics and rubbers used in FUEL LINES etc. No good for older cars that were not set up for it.
Typically a 10% ethanol fuel is 98RON(the highest we have) and is 10% cheaper than a 100% petroleum fuel of the same RON value.

Current prices are AUD$1.32/L for 93 unleaded, up to AUD$1.43 for premium 98( 100% petroleum). Suggestions in the media that it will be AUD$2.00 by Christmas.

On the diesel subject, as you guys have noted we have heaps of diesel options, almosty every commercial vehicle and a lot of passenger ones have a diesel engine variant. The asian and euro manufacturers in particular. My last experience (except for the new diesel in mill) in this area was a Toyota Hilux twin cab with all of the offroad toys..2.8L diesel ex factory with an aftermarket garret T2 turbo. More grunt that a 6 cyl petrol landcruiser with 2/3 the fuel bill. Diesel is currently selling at the bowser for about AUD$1.30 odd.

DTR
MS460 Magnum
MS250
DAF CF85-430
ASV RC-85 track loader

Vermonter

New homestead

dancan

my Hino 1517 with it's 4cylinder turbo deisel loaded with 1 1/2 cord of green wood and with the chipper behind burns less fuel than my friends 95 F150 4X4 300 cid with no load and the wind at his back .
it amazes me how a small , slow turning motors with proper gearing can do so much work .

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