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Logging for large company vs logging for yourself ?

Started by U.P mich, April 06, 2017, 08:53:39 AM

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U.P mich

Hello all.  I'm new to this forum tho I have read a lot of posts in the past. I'm just wondering what everyone's thoughts are on the topic of company logging vs private logging.  I have been a company sub contractor with my own equipment for 5 years and that's the way I'd say 80% of people log around here.  Tho I am thinking of going private with one crew to try to generate more profit.  I'm a little afraid of the private market mainly because I have never done it before. Setting up contracts , getting boundary lines in. Marketing wood etc etc...  Any Opinions / info is appreciated.

chevytaHOE5674

We cut probably 90% of the time for a large company (which takes care of marketing, road building, trucking, lines, timber marking, etc) the rest we do some private work. The hard part about cutting private wood for yourself is marketing the pulpwood. Just before break-up we were cutting a private job and since the pulp market is so tight we have a few hundred cords pulp decked up with no place to go. In fact the large company we cut for has a few thousand cord of pulpwood decked up because they are at their quota.

Generally if the big guys have trouble with quotas and moving pulp then the little guy has no chance as all.

As for running lines we just have a surveyor come in and ribbon the lines when needed. Hire somebody to build roads when needed. 

U.P mich

Ya understand that it isn't easy moving pulpwood in the private market tho I might have a way to move a few loads a week of private. which may be all I need since my full time crew is busy 6 days a week with the company I'm working for.  Just kicking around the idea of doing private jobs myself on the side.  One man crew low production but low operating costs.  How do you go about marketing logs/veneer in your area. And setting up logging contracts.

barbender

The hardest part of running on your own, is marketing the wood from what I've seen. Anyone can put wood on a landing, things get far more complicated after that point. I work  for a large logging operation, we contract cut for mills a lot, and also cut a lot of open market wood. In turn, we have 5 owner/operator CTL processors, and several conventiol contract crews cutting for us. Sometimes some of the contract guys get a little discontent and start dreaming of striking of on their own, but I don't think they understand the scope of trying to find a home for 250 cords of wood a week- week in and week out. Make for darn sure you have markets for your wood.
Too many irons in the fire

barbender

Now a one man show to the side, that might have some potential- low overhead, small jobs with sawlogs and veneer, you can always sell that.
Too many irons in the fire

chevytaHOE5674

Sawlogs and Veneer is never a problem or us. We call around to the different sawmills in the area and see who has the best rates. Send a load or two there and see how the scale and grade works out for us and go from there. Usually the mill will tell us what they would prefer as far as species and lengths.

chevytaHOE5674

As far as contracts with the landowners most of it is done on a handshake with my boss. But if you prefer a written contract there are samples on the net that you can use and change as needed.

Coming from a crew that does both we much prefer the contract cutting for a large company. Even though the money is a little less all we do is show up and cut/deck wood. We don't have to find tracts to cut, market wood, build road, plow roads, fix roads, culvert permits, getting easements, find a trucker, deal with landowners, etc. All of that can and will add up to headaches on occasion.

wannaergo

We've done both ways, and have figured out that subcontracting is a lot less stressful than marketing your own wood. You can make a bit more money on your own, but it's a lot of headaches and stress
2016 Ponsse ergo 8w
2014 Cat 564
Husky 385

U.P mich

Thanks for all the info and warnings.  I'll have to really start digging into possible markets before I go any further with my plans.  The markets and prices change so fast in this industry that it seems to be a full time job to keep up with it all.  The numbers add up and look good on paper for starting a private one man operation with my extra equipment and myself.   Does anyone know / have any contact info for reputable low and high grade veneer buyers in the Great Lakes region ?

chevytaHOE5674

Unless you really know your veneer market specs you probably will need just a sawlog buyer and then let them buy their veneer from that. For sawlogs we sell to Northern Hardwoods in South Range, MI; Besse forest products in Baraga, Mi; also lesser quantities to a place down in Kenton, Mi and to Midwest Hardwoods in Park Falls, Wi.

If you really know your veneer and sort it accordingly you can have a strictly veneer buyer come out. But they don't usually want to spend all day looking at your sawlogs when a majority are just logs not veneer. There is Columbia forest products in Mellen, Wi; Manti Veneer out of the LP, and a few others.

1270d

Who's is buying for Columbia now?   Gary Sarafiny was the buyer and was killed in a motorcycle accident last summer.

chevytaHOE5674

No idea. We never sell veneer separately, we just ship all our logs to the sawmill and usually get a couple sticks of veneer out them.



U.P mich

Thanks for the info I appreciate it. I'm actually really good at sorting veneer. Had to do it for many years before I started logging on my own. Took many classes on sorting and grading.  Haven't had to sort it out in at least 5 years now tho.  Company wood is company wood no need to sort for them they do it themselves when the logs get to their yard or sawmill.  But I know it wouldn't take me long to get in the habit of sorting it again. 

wannaergo

Where in the UP are you located? We deal a lot with a guy in amasa who buys our logs, and he sorts all the veneers for us. Any figure he finds he picks out and holds an auction. He has many different markets he deals with, so he gets the most out of our logs.
2016 Ponsse ergo 8w
2014 Cat 564
Husky 385

chevytaHOE5674

Sorting veneer isn't really that hard. But usually a very small percentage of logs are veneer so if your a small volume kind of guy you probably wont accumulate enough veneer in a timely fashion (think staining) to make sorting them out of your logs worth it. And if you have a log buyer that also buys your veneer then it is time and money ahead to just put them all together.

Having said that the last thing I would worry about is marketing the logs and veneer. There is always a market and buyer for them.

mf40diesel

U.P Michigan,  kind of funny.  I am thinking I am kind of in a similar situation as you, in trying to break in I mean.

Do to a lot of circumstances, work / family / and schedule, for the first time in almost 20 years I am really thinking about hanging up my sea bag for a bit.  My passion has always been logging, but never did it for a career, only ever been a hobby. I am exploring the possibility of pursuing my dream for a bit anyways. Only problem, is I am overwhelmed as to how to figure out how to actually do it!

I'll follow this thread closely, surely you saw mine that is on here right now too.  "Getting a woodlot to cut."

Good luck to us both hopefully

John Deere 5055e, mfwd. Farmi JL306 Winch. Timberjack 225 Skidder. Splitfire splitter & Stihl saws.

barbender

My feel on things, for starting off as a one man show- you have to have high value timber to work with. In my area, it's tough to make it producing pulpwood as a one man show with a cable skidder. I know of 2 guys in the area doing it, everything else is mechanized crews. I think the reason you see so many cable and single bunk forwarder operations to the east of me is having the high value wood to work with, where the low impact of hand falling and small equipment can come into it's own. If i could cut big pine and nice hardwood every day, stuff that adds up in both volume and $$$, I think I could make a go of it, but I know it wouldn't be easy.
Too many irons in the fire

U.P mich

I am located in Lanse Michigan.  Baraga county.  I have a full time mechanized crew with a John Deere harvester and 2 fabtek 546 c double bunk forwarders. My passion is hand felling and I'd like to make a go of it in the private market. More risk but more reward. And with a low operating cost one man operation it shouldn't be difficult to turn a profit.  My mechanized crew has no lack of work with the company I cut for but with the rates we get it's hard to come out ahead cutting 300 cord / week. I'd like to run my own lil operation on the side. Providing my employees that run my equipment don't quit on me lol.  Always difficult to find good help.    I'm only going to target log timber larger aspen plots and big or very thick pine stands to cut on my own and market myself.  Have a few lined up already where I think I can get this idea started.  Gotta try and hope for the best I guess.

U.P mich

Wannaergo .  Who is it in amasa you sell logs/ veneer to.  I thought that was a strictly veneer yard there by the highway.  Never knew who operated that yard.
There's Ottawa forest products there to tho I've never inquired about their prices. Yet .  my main concern at this point is securing enough timber sales that have the potential to generate enough volume to interest log/ veneer buyers. And the hardwood pulp issue.  Firewood maybe.

wannaergo

The guys name is Steve Noblet. He has been pretty good to us. We sell some logs to ottowa as well, and they actually have better rates for low grade logs. We try to keep the nice stuff to Noblet and the not as nice to ottowa
2016 Ponsse ergo 8w
2014 Cat 564
Husky 385

lshobie

I did it myself....there is a learning curve and that costs money - mainly from the scumbags out there taking advantage of the new guy.  If you are willing to pay the learning fees then do it yourself, I still came out ahead but I learn quickly.  Firewood is quick and easy money and easy to sell, word of mouth and internet advertising which is free sells it fast - i have sold 30 loads this winter without a problem and could have sold 30 more.

Talk to the local guys hauling  timber - they know what mills are buying and which guys are scumbags - ask many logers and haulers and skidder operators, call the mills and veneer buyers and get all that info....cross reference that info and then try selling a load or two of veneer and sawlogs, wait for the cheque to come in and then see if you are happy with that...ask around and see what others think and then when you realize you were shortchanged try another one and you should be good with the next one. 

The scumbags smell fresh meat, there are lots of them out there but this is a great life and well worth it at the end of the day, you'll do fine.

Cheers.
John Deere 440 Skidder, C5 Treefarmer,  Metavic Forwarder, Massey 2500 Forklift, Hyundai HL730 Wheel Loader, Woodmizer LT40, Valley Edger,  Alaskan Mill, Huskys, Stihls, and echos.

U.P mich

Thanks for all the advice.  I'm just gonna giver a go. I have my full time company crew still if the private market doesn't work out. 

starmac

The problem here is there is but one mill and the way they want the logs cut, if you are contract cutting.
You still have to get the wood to the mill, so even contract cutting for them you are doing everything including maintaining the roads, sometimes even building.

They want it cut in 53 foot lengths everything that will make a 6 in top at 53, you are scaled on the top, no adjustments, even though 20 fot of butt log would scale more.
If you are cutting your own, you can cut them at 33, 37,41,47 or 53. You can send in 24,21,or 16's but they dock ypu 18% on price.
Contract cutting you can not sell firewood, they are also in the firewood business big time, so much is left in the woods to rot on their sales.

This is for spruce, if their sale has birch that has to be harvested, you have to find your own market, or leave it and pay the stumpage anyway, the mill will not take it, even though they bought the sale it is on.
Old LT40HD, old log truck, old MM forklift, and several huskies.

mike_belben

Sounds like there is plenty of room to open a competing mill. All the loggers who hate them would lunge at the chance to leave
Praise The Lord

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