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A Learning Curve

Started by Tom, September 29, 2002, 11:12:37 AM

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Tom

I get around throughout the woodworking/forest-industry forums and have noticed a syndrome that bares attention by those asking for technical direction.
 
It appears to me that there is a definite learning curve involved in all of these jobs that leaves the executor in a state of egotistical euphoria in the early part of the curve.  This is long before any rationale can attribute the exhibited, sharp increase, in education to schooling or experience.
 
I experienced an episode in similarity once when I was about 27 years old.   My chief photographer had hired a replacement for me and was in the process of training him.  This young fellow had no experience in photojournalism until this job.  He did think of himself as a future artist of world renown.
 
He would come in from an assignment, as simple as a head-and-shoulder shot of a politician, with several rolls of exposed film.  Then into the dark room where he would change the temperature of the chemicals, or some other drastic thing, which would cause the emulsion on the film to bubble or slide, distorting the image.  Then put the film on the enlarger where he created a paper image that would have confused any "modern" artist.  He would then present the picture to the Chief and explain how wonderful it was, and how the Chief and the rest of the Newspaper staff should be glad that they had such a talented artist.  "One day I will teach you how to compose", he would say. (or something similar.)
 
I was present one day when he was being sent back out to redo an assignment and overheard the Chief explaining to him the facts of life.  I was a little embarrassed for listening, because the Chief didn't do this in public. but I remained in the dark room with my ear to the door anyway. Here is a paraphrased synopsis of the "conversation".
 
"What you are doing, experimenting with film, is nothing new.  Every photographer that ever entered a darkroom has done it.  Perhaps you will stumble upon a technique that hasn't been tried before and perhaps not.  You haven't so far.  If you want to succeed in this field then you must learn to do it right first.  When you have learned enough to understand what you have been doing right, then, and only then, should you allow yourself to do it wrong.  The purpose of your job is to produce an identifiable image of a subject for the reporter to attach a story.  If the reading public doesn't understand your picture, then you have failed.  Now go get me a picture of that Judge's head."
 
I guess we all go through this part of the learning curve in our field at one point or another.  It's seldom we have enough knowledge, at that point, to realize that we don't know as much as we think.  Some folks have humorously categorized it as " knowing enough to ask a question".
 
As a society, it seems to me, that we have grown up ignoring one of the most important learning skills, listening.  I heard once that "ears don't work when one's mouth is in motion".
 
As an older age approaches, I realize the importance of listening more and more. Not only listening but questioning, in my mind, what I am hearing.  Then if I'm unsure of what I heard, questioning the person who told me.  The first thing I have to do is quantify the knowledge of the person who has the floor.  Age is a time-honored way of doing this.  Older folks know more stuff than we would like to give them credit because they've been there.  Experience.  They may not understand why something works a certain way, but they sure bare listening to.  I've been around my "old-timers" when a youngster runs his mouth and they shut up.  Now, I know who I'd rather listen to, the "old-timer'.  It falls in the same category as talking in class, or skipping school.  Did you ever see the movie " The Imposter"?  Now there was someone who stayed in trouble because he pretended he knew stuff that he didn't. Tony Curtis played it well.
 
I've seen new mill owners, after a cram session of 6 weeks or 6 months, not only tell everybody how to do it, but tell them how they are wrong.  I've seen Foresters, fresh out of school, or even unschooled, who have a line for landowners a mile long.  They are fooling with a man's livelihood, his retirement, his heritage and his entire family by convincing him that they have the answers when they have no experience.  There have been Grand old Oaks killed by the trimming from an ignorant arborist who had a good line.  There has been equipment torn up by employees who lied about their knowledge and ability to run it.  There have been people killed because they lied to themselves about their ability to run a chainsaw.  I've seen threads on forums where a question was asked and several posts down the same person was telling the experienced who answered, that they were wrong and "here is what's right".
 
I mention this subject because I believe that we all owe it to ourselves, and our community, to recognize our position in the learning curve.  Self Discipline is required to complete the curve.  An acknowledgement of age/experience/knowledge, a healthy respect for authority and a little humility need to be traits that we strive to develop.
 
Listening is an art and even artists practice.

Texas Ranger

Howdja get so smart so young?  It irks me a forester graduate from college at the age of 21 and is an instant "Consultant".  It irks me that radical environmentalists that have a favorite section of woods puts their judgement values on the rest of world from their one little spot of "heaven".  Fortunately, there seem to be fewer of this type in the small mill business, after they have run one for a day or two.  The machine has a way of waking up even the most die hard bottom of the curve individual.
The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

Tillaway

I hear you there Tom.  I have trained numerous cruisers through the years and the ones that have the most problems are the ones that just get it figured out and then try to do more than everyone else.  When I check them they usually have allot of rework to do.  They might be getting twice the production  until I make them go back and do it again.  I am old enough now to know that I definitely don't know it all and mistakes are costly.
Making Tillamook Bay safe for bait; one salmon at a time.

Bro. Noble

That calls to mind the story about the farmer who had gone to a bull sale and bought two bulls------one an old bull and the other a 2 year old.  The farmer unloaded them on a hill above the cow herd.  The young bull noticed all the cows in the valley and told the old bull "lets run down there and breed one of those cows !!"  The old bull said "hold on there sonny, lets walk down there and breed them all"

Noble
milking and logging and sawing and milking

mustang

I was one of those fresh 21 year olds just out of forestry school when i got my first job in forestry on the Winn District in central LA , that's Louisana,. I was considered a Yankee by the locals being from Tennessee.  They considered anyone born north of I-20 a.yankee.  Eventhough i had some of that fresh from college atitude these folks treated me like family.  But those old timers on the marking crew could sure put a college boy in his place when i needed it.  I'm thankfull today they did.

woodman

I knew everthing when i was 16  but do'nt ask me now.
Jim Cripanuk

DanG

DanG, Tom! You've hit me right in my pettest of pet peaves.  I'm mostly irritated, right now, at these "financial experts," with amniotic fluid still dripping from their earlobes, that are leading the country into ruination with their bogus advice.  Nor have I any patience with the "activists," who beat their drum loudly and incessantly, without having bothered to learn the facts about their passion.  My most fervent disdane is for this generation of "self-esteem" junkies that have nothing to esteem themselves of. What they are really about is called Narcissism...unjustified pride in one's self.

Thank you for, once again, praising the wisdom that is accumulated in the souls of our older citizens. That is a treasure that is too little appreciated.

OK, I'm off the soapbox.   NEXT! :)
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

Gordon

Well Tom you sure hit the nail on the head with that post. We are all on a constant learning curve in life. Seems that some of us realize it and others don't.

This happened today at work. Had to run out of the jail because we were one gasket/bolt set short to get the job done. So my helper runs into the barn and gets the gasket set. I noticed that the plastic is broken on the box. He got into the van and I asked him if he had checked the contents. Yea it's all fine he replies. So we head back inside again and down in the basement to finish up the job that was almost done. Well I open the box and guess what---IT'S MISSING A BOLT---. As I say live and learn.

Guess sometimes if you want it done right you just have to do it yourself.  :-/

When I was 15 to 18 years old I knew it all but I woke up one morning and all of that knowledge had just leaked out. So at 19 I had to start learning all over again.  ???

Gordon

Noble_Ma

I think we are all guilty of this in one way or another.  Everyone here is on either side of this depending on what the subject is.  The more I learn about sawing, the more I realize what I don't know.  Having said this, I need to make a point.  I've worked with some of the "old timers" in the carpentry field.  With twenty years in the business, I guess I'm one of the old times myself.  However,  some people listen but not with an open mind.  I find that sometimes you can't speak you mind with these gents.  They've done that and been there before a hundred times. My Dad, God rest his soul, was one of those guys.  Later on, before he died, he told me that he did that because he wanted me to learn more than he did.  Never listen with a closed mind.  You're never to old, to much an old timer to learn.  Even from a rookie.  Ok, let the comments begin.

Tom

You have the jist of what I was talking about NutherNoble.  Your third sentence "The more I learn about sawing, the more I realize what I don't know." is pretty much it in a nutshell.  

The part about the old-timers really relates to a rule that my elders tried to teach me.  

"Silence is Golden"
"Keep your mouth shut when in the presence of elders".
"Listen, or you won't learn."
"Respect your elders".
"Don't look upon elders as your peer".
"keep your place'.
"Respect age".
"belittle no one"
"Don't take the last biscuit".

It's common place today for "youngsters" to challenge their elders and to consider themselves with no peers.  It makes for a smart mouthed kid.  It's not the place of the kid to teach the elder that all his years have been wrong unless the elder asks him for advice.  It should be understood by the kid that he is there to learn and whether he agrees or not with his elder doesn't mean that he take over the coversation.  One can go away and think about a lesson for a long time without confronting the teacher.

There were things my folks told me that warranted absolutely no response and none was expected.  These things had to do with the way I was expected to conduct myself.

I was told to do some jobs certain ways because that is the way they expected them to be done.  I wasn't free to do as I pleased.

There were some jobs where I was told to accomplish a task and with those jobs I could approach them any way I desired, as long as the task was accomplished.

But, I never ever was expected to stick my chest out, raise my voice and tell them "What I was going to do".  It was not their job to listen to me with an open mind and I found out about it a time or two.

As we learn, it behooves us to remain humble.  Learning enough to be dangerous doesn't make us experts. The learning curve doesn't shoot straight up. You don't learn everything at one time and reach the top of the curve.  The learning curve may be steep at first but it has plateaus.  It behooves us to recognize that we are standing on one of those plateaus, not the top of the curve.

It helps if we don't consider ourselves an old-timer.  That is a title we should reserve for others.

I just said "Don't take the last biscuit" for the fun of it.

Noble_Ma

Tom,

I agree one hundred percent.  The other thing I forgot to add about Dad.....  he taught us respect.  Not just for others but ourselves too.  Knowing when to shut up and listen is a hard thing to do.  Human nature makes us want to go where no man has gone before and do it better, faster and cheaper.  The ony thing we forget sometimes is remembering where we came from and who we came from.  I'm not trying to disrespect the old timers, just sharing some of my observations. I was kidding about being an old timer.  Only my kids think that!!!!! :D

Frank_Pender

One of the prime things I learned from my folks was much as many have spoken to but said here in a bit of a different manner. "When you don't know, find those with a few more gray hairs that you have upstairs."   I have followed this from the  time 10 or 12 years of age.  ( about 46 years)  Wwhen I have followed this council very close I have found my learning curve to spike upward to another leveling off point.   As an educator in the public shool system for 30 years I learned that the best advice to follow was three things, "listen, listen, listen". :P :P :P :P :P
Frank Pender

FeltzE

After 20 years of military service, The only thing I am sure if is that  the more I learn , the more I know that there is more to learn about it all :P. I have been a flight instructor, as well as a fairly high level safety manager for both flight and ground operations. Everything full of regulation and speculation. Then off to the wood yard. Easy economics but hard applications.

It's been fun learning about wood. Going from the sawmilling to air drying, then off to the kiln, (finding the truths about shrinkage and knots) to the planer ( ducking those inflight knots) to the customer or my projects.


I am sure I know it ALL, just ask my wife ;D


NOT

Eric :D

Bro. Noble

All the above is true and I agree.  BUT   We must remember to respect the ideas of the youth and praise them when they figure out a better way to do things.  They have to be allowed to try their ideas too.  So many farmers wonder why their children don't want to continue with the family business.  I'm sure this is true of other bussinesses as well.  It's not always the lack of income or hard work.  Sometimes young people just get tired of being (in their view) an ignorant peon.

Noble
milking and logging and sawing and milking

DanG

Right on, Noble!  While tradition and history are certainly the cornerstones of knowledge, innovation and inspiration are the things that make that knowledge dynamic. If the old were not willing to listen to the young, we would still be chipping away at logs with a sharp rock, but if we didn't have the wisdom of the old, we would still be re-inventing the same sharp rock. It works both ways.

 :P
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

Noble_Ma

Well put DanG.  I think as long as you say or do things with respect, you can't go wrong.  My fifteen year old son is always questioning me about why I did something this way or that.  The key is he's respectful about it.  The best way to learn is through questions.  I take it as a compliment if someone asks how to do something or what do you think about doing it this way?  It's up to the holders of knowledge to pass it on.  It's up to the students to ask questions and not just sit back and take everything as the gossip if it doesn't make sense to you. Isn't that why we're all here.  We share knowledge and ask questions and hopefully learn from each other.

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