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The 98,000 board feet question?

Started by krazykioti, April 16, 2011, 11:11:53 AM

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krazykioti

Recently I had my 65 acres of woods cruised by a local company that puts your timber up for bid.They told me that I have 98,000 board feet in timber that could be cut .the value was assessed at about $25,000. My timber is comprised of Black Cherry,Hard & Soft Maple ,Ash ,Red Oak. I declined the offer thinking I could do better if I process it myself.Especially after a friend told me he saw Red Oak for $7 a board foot at a local Box Store.
Now the question ,what size mill would I need to saw up to 5,000 board feet a year?Thinking that at 5,000 board feet I would never deplete my woods. I am also thinking about a log arch for my 45hp 4x4 tractor, for skidding purposes.I would also purchase a planer and possibly a moulder at a later date.Probably a storage shed of some type ,a drying process along with it would also be needed. Quartersawing trips my trigger and I have thought about sawing some boards in that manner.
Would it be feasible to try and sell processed boards for $3-$5 a board foot on the open market? If this were to work out I would like to purchase more timber land to expand this hobby/business.

terrifictimbersllc

Make some logs and have a sawyer come and saw them for you for a few hundred dollars.  Air dry the wood and try to sell it. 
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

Clark

Quote from: krazykioti on April 16, 2011, 11:11:53 AM
Recently I had my 65 acres of woods cruised by a local company that puts your timber up for bid.They told me that I have 98,000 board feet in timber that could be cut.

You could also cut all 65 acres and take the big check.  Or you could high grade it and take a big check and have some standing timber left.  Or you could take the crappy stuff, make less money but add to the growth on the good trees.

My point is that there are a million different variations on what could be done with your acreage.  As you point out, you could take 5K bd-ft a year and either A)improve the quality of the woods and the future harvests, B) slowly high grade the entire patch or C) keep the quality level at about the same level.

The company that quoted you the $25K might be doing any one of the above, who knows until it happens, especially if you aren't allowed to give any input on the operation?  Bottom line is you should hire a professional forester to give you advice on site.  Pay for his services and tell him what you want to do.  He should be able to set you up so you can mark your own timber in a way that ensures that your goals can be met now and in the future.  From there you can figure out if the sawmill, etc will pencil out.

Clark
SAF Certified Forester

krazykioti

I guess I feel it would not be hard to do better than .25-.26 cents per board foot for what I was quoted. Granted it would be a lot of hard work!

Bibbyman

Quote from: krazykioti on April 16, 2011, 11:11:53 AM
Now the question ,what size mill would I need to saw up to 5,000 board feet a year?Thinking that at 5,000 board feet I would never deplete my woods.

Would it be feasible to try and sell processed boards for $3-$5 a board foot on the open market?


Any of the smallest band mill or swing mills should easily saw 5,000 bf a year.  Working hard,  one could probably do that in a week or maybe two.

I've never had any luck marketing dry lumber.   Even with 10,000 bf of inventory,  I never seem to have what the customer wants when he wants it.  Having a place to keep dry lumber in good condition is another expense and problem.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

terrifictimbersllc

Quote from: krazykioti on April 16, 2011, 12:13:10 PM
I guess I feel it would not be hard to do better than .25-.26 cents per board foot for what I was quoted. Granted it would be a lot of hard work!
What has 4 letters and starts with W?     :)
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

Knute

I have had good luck selling air dried lumber ( 1 year or more) if it is a grade no. 1 common or better for a minimum of $1.00 / bd. ft.. Never really tried to sell finished lumber.

thecfarm

I see you are new here,new to the wood business too? Yes,you can get more money for your trees sawing,planing it yourself,BUT and I said BUT you need to find buyers for it. Lots of companies will make it sound as good as you say it can be done. You have to find the people to buy it from you.Will be a lot of waste too. Log make look good,but when you get into it,not so good. Drying problems,lumber cupping,warping checking too much. Have to remember too if dealing with customers,who's sawing now? You will need just about every lengths and width and kind of lumber too. Need to stack it,grade it,keep it all separate.Don't want to move a stack of lumber 3 feet high to get to $50 worth of lumber on the bottom. There is alot time to get a board from the stump to buyer.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Ron Wenrich

Do you know what a $5/bf board looks like?  How many of those do you think you can make out of your cuttings?  Who is going to buy that $5/bf board?  What processes does it take to make it?  In 35 years in the business, I have never sold a $7/bf oak board or seen one that I would be interested in buying.

I saw at a commercial level.  I see lots of good logs go out for veneer.  Most of the sawlogs that come in will only cut about half in 1 Com and better.  The upper price we get for green red oak lumber is about 90-95¢.  We sell a lot on volume and we don't cut on speculation.  Our lumber is sold when we cut it.  

For you to get the kind of money you think its worth means you're going to have to find a market.  Those markets are limited, or everyone would be in them.  You will have to dry the board in a kiln, and you will need to straight line rip the board and double end trim it and plane the board.  That's where the box stores get the higher price.  Someone had to add all the work and the marketing.

From the mill end, you're going to have to find a market for all that lumber that won't meet those specs.  That means it will take away from your high end lumber when you average those prices together.  You will not average $3-5 for log run lumber.  Those low grade markets are currently paying 35-45¢/bf.  You might do better if you can find a local construction market or fencing market.  

To get your logs to lumber, you will need a mill of some sort, some way to get the logs out, and hopefully you don't split too many when you cut them.   The learning curve can be pretty severe.  And you have to figure out what to do with your waste material...sawdust and slabs.  

98,000 bf of timber on 65 acres doesn't seem like very much volume.  How big are the trees that have been marked?
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Bibbyman

Some of the problems I've encountered when trying to retail dried lumber are...

As mentioned before..  Most customers are very selective of what they want.  If you have 500 bf of red oak, they'll want to look through ever board to find the two they want.

Some customers will buy lumber dried by any method.  Then you have some that will only buy lumber that has been dried by a heat kiln process; Others only by dehumidification process; Others want only air dried.

Many will pick the widest boards you have first.  Some will select only the widths that are called for in their plan – even if other boards would work just as well as they're going to cut them into small pieces anyway.  ie.  They'll want a 1x12 12' long when 3 1x6 8' long would work out just as well.

The novice will want the lumber straight line ripped if it needs it or not because that's what they've read in a magazine.   And many don't have a jointers or even a plainer so they want the lumber pre-processed.  Many don't understand about "glue-up" and don't have the equipment or skills to make wide panels.

The novice can't look at a board that's been dried by any means and see what it'll look like finished.  They assume the gray appearance is the way it'll look finished.  They expect it to be bright as the boards they see planed and sanded at the big box store.

Be prepared to expect several phone calls and visit about an hour for every sale.  Be prepared to talk a lot on the phone and in person and not make a sale.

Rarely do you get a professional woodworker that'll come and buy in any quantity straight off the stack. 

The big cabinet shops won't buy from a small producer.  They order exactly what they want from a big supplier then pass the cost on to the customer.

It typically takes a year from stump to first sale of dried lumber.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

stavebuyer

Don't even know where to start on this one. First, don't be in a hurry as the market overall is very weak. I wouldn't harvest anything on my own land that wasn't down, dead, or part of a timber stand improvement. The trees will give you a better return growing and waiting for market conditions to improve.

Second be sure you know your capabilities. Logging, especially, is a risky business.  The box stores don't sell very many 7 dollar boards. The capital costs incurred in the equipment and buildings to produce dried and surfaced lumber could not be justified at a 5,000' per year production level. When you divide that production by several different species and grades of lumber you would have difficulty in selling the lumber.

Not trying to discourage you but I have seen more than one person "invest" in equipment only to end up with less than they started out with. If your serious and want to use your timber as a stepping stone into the business; you have a big advantage. If your going into this with an expectation that a small mill and grapple will turn the 98,000 bd ft of standing timber into $250k I think your going to be dissappointed.


Ianab

The idea is not completely crazy, but as the guys point out there are a lot of "buts".

What equipment do you have already? If the terrain is good you may get away with some small scale logging with a smaller 4WD tractor and winch or logging arch.

Sawing? Practically any mill is going to to be able to put out that sort of production. Like Bibbyman suggests, a hard days work with a manual mill might cut you 1,000bf assuming you have everything set up for smooth production. That's probably the simpler part of the operation.

Drying? You can air dry, but that's time consuming and most woodworkers will want kiln dried. Maybe build a Solar Kiln? Once you have a sawmill building stuff like a simple kiln and storage sheds becomes so much more practical.

Machining? Another stage, more machinery, more work.

Selling? Selling retail is a pain if you aren't set up as a an actual shop (and probably is even then). Most of the guys selling from the mill are more "wholesalers". Sure you can sell direct to the public, but you don't want to spend an hour messing around with the guy wanting 2 boards that have the grain "just right". Probably better to plan on selling like Knute, advertise as a package deal of the species, grade and amount at a good price.

Other thoughts:

Another the issue is that you now have a lot of machinery that's sitting idle most of the time. Not so good from a business investment point of view. A commercial operation will plan on having it's equipment running for 8 hours a day with different crews. Not such an issue if you are a hobby operation and don't have finance to pay on the machinery of course.

Not all trees make good saw logs, and even good logs don't make all good boards. You are going to to have low grade boards to move, right down to "firewood" grade. If you are heating with wood, could be bonus for you there. Otherwise, what's the local firewood market like?

Management of your Forest? This has been touched on. Yes you should be able to selectively harvest your woods, and actually improve the quality and value of the remaining standing timber over time, if you do it right. A whole other skill set here to understand the dynamics of the forest and what conditions you want to create to encourage the trees you want. Some trees regenerate under the shelter of the existing forest, others will only regenerate in an open area. So the way you do your selective harvest can make a big change to the make up of the forest over time. Likewise you will probably be removing a lot of "firewood" grade stuff as it's just taking up space at the moment that could be used for a more valuable tree in the future.

Last thought - why stop at "finished boards". Most of the stuff I occasionally sell, on a hobby basis, is actual finished furniture. Aquarium stands, cabinets and shelves, coffee and computer tables etc. One decent tree could produce $5,000 of furniture if you have a bit of woodworking skill. Also allows you to use grades and species of wood that might not normally sell.

Anyway the suggestions of getting some professional advice from a local forester is good, then do some small scale logging / fire-wooding and hire in a portable mill for a day or 2. That will give you a feeling how things are going to work, and give you a couple of thousand bd/ft of lumber to air dry and get you started. If you are then hooked on the idea, start shopping for your own mill. If it all seems like too much work, well at least you have a big stack of timber that only owes you ~50c a foot.

Most important is don't let people tell you it CAN"T be done, but listen to them when they point out the potential problem, and actual dangers, that you are going to come across.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

brb

Make sure you get multiple bids on your timber. I just had a neighbor have his woods logged last fall. He marked his own trees and had the loggers come and bid on it. The low price was $29,000, the high bid turned out to be $55,000. He had them scale it at the logging sight and final check turned out to be $66,000. This was an older gentleman who has been around wood a long time though. Just a thought.

red oaks lumber

first question.. how do you make a million dollars in the lumber market? start with 2 million...
i am in the buisness of sawing, drying, machining lumberr. there are more big buts in this sinerio than at weight watchers.you could maybe come out ahead but green cash in your hand now is acertian winner..
knowing what i know now,would i start over doing it again? read my lips HAIL NO. good luck
the experts think i do things wrong
over 18 million b.f. processed and 7341 happy customers i disagree

mikeb1079

why not do both?  consult with a forester, have your land selectively logged, take the cash and buy an entry level mill and log arch.  then you can process some of your own trees and see what happens.  seems like a nice problem to have!
good luck!
8)
that's why you must play di drum...to blow the big guys mind!
homebuilt 16hp mill
99 wm superhydraulic w/42hp kubota

WDH

Krazy,

I do exactly what you are proposing.  I own 190 acres of timberland, and I harvest some of my mature hardwood, saw the lumber, air dry it, and sell it to woodworkers.  For me, it is a better way to get more value for the hardwood portion of my timberland than selling stumpage to a big hardwood sawmill.  Stumpage prices for the better grade of Southern hardwood, which is mostly the oaks and ash, are about $200/mbf doyle scale ($25/ton).  Palletwood prices are about $100/mbf doyle ($12.50/ton).  Palletwood is mainly low grade oak and other species like sweetgum, elm, sycamore, etc.  Hardwood markets are poorer here than in your neck of the woods.  This is Pine country with a capital P.

Lets say that you have a good red oak that would weigh 2 tons or scale 250 bf doyle scale.  That is a $50 tree if sold as stumpage.  I can saw that tree on my LT15 and get about 325 sawn bf, sticker and air dry it for 9 months, and sell the lumber through local advertising to woodworkers.  For the #2 grade, I can get $1.00/bf, for #1 grade $1.50/bf, and for select & btr $2.00/bf.  That equates to about $500 for the tree, a 10 factor lift in value.

But!  I had to buy the mill, buy a tractor with a FEL, build air drying sheds, and deal with the 2 board guy that likes to pick through Bibbyman's stacks.  I had to work like a dog handling all those heavy boards.  It took a lot of time.  Why do I do it?  Because I like it.  I like managing my land, I like sawing lumber and building furniture.  When it all shakes out, I earn enough money to pay for my equipment with a little to boot and some fine lumber to build furniture with.  I still did better than selling that tree for $50, but not a whole lot better.  Another rationalization I have is that I have the mill anyway because I like to build furniture from my own trees (the real reason that I bought the mill).  I have the tractor anyway because I need one to manage my Tree Farm.  Paying for that stuff with lumber sales is gravy.  I made my living as a Professional Forester, so wood is my thing, and that is one reason that I do this.  I could not come remotely close to make a living doing this.  But that $500 tree versus that $50 tree makes me feel that I am doing right for my land. 

One reason this works for me is that in middle Georgia, you cannot get hardwood of any species except for a few species like oak and yellow poplar at the big box stores.  You either have an inroad with one of the few remaining hardwood sawmills, but they won't deal with the little guy.  Or, you can drive to Atlanta and pay double for kiln dried, surfaced 4 sides finished lumber ready to go.  Interesting, most real seasoned woodworkers actually prefer rough lumber because they want to mill the boards to final dimensions to fit their standards, so rough sawn is actually not a detriment.  Be warned, however, that in your area, hardwood lumber may be laying around on every street corner.  You local conditions may be that you will be in competition with 100 other producers who are selling at 1/2 your price.  There has to be demand.  Here there is.  There, there may not.  You have some homework to do.

Some things that I have found.....1).  The hobby guy wants as wide a board as possible even though as Bibbyman said narrower may actually be better for what they are building.  2).  There are two types of customers, those that want only the best grade and then there are those who want only the cheapest lowest grade.  3).  Knots are a problem to some and desired by others.  4).  The best sellers are the prime furniture woods like black walnut, cherry, maple, red oak, and white oak.  Yellow poplar is in a secondary class.  5).  Cut and sell what others do not have like quartersawn white oak, pecan, mulberry, osage orange, quartersawn sycamore, and persimmon.  6).  Thick stock like 8/4 is hard to find.  Cut some 8/4 walnut, cherry, maple, yellow poplar, and oak.  It is heavy and hard to handle and takes over a year to dry, but you can sell it for more per bf.  I can usually get a 1.5 times premium for 8/4.  7).  Saw out some interesting wood with unusual grain, crotch, etc. for the bowl turners.  Also, cut some thick mantle stock in 16/4.  If sells slow, but someone will come along and be looking for a thick hardwood beam or mantle and you may be the only guy around that has one.  You can get a 2+ times premium for these, but for every one that dries good, another one splits and cracks.  9).  Don't cut low grade logs.  They work you to death and you are lucky to get $.75 to $1.00/bf and there will be a bunch of knotty cracked, pithy, split, and twisted junk that you either give away when someone buys something decent or you burn it as firewood. 10).  All the boards look great when they come off the mill green.  But after drying, some will split, crack, check, stain, twist, warp, and get powderpost beetles.  Some get all of these!

On walnut and cherry that is #1 common grade or better, I can get about $3.00 - $4.00 per bf for 4/4 and $4.00 to $5.00 for 8/4.  You can get about the same for 4/4 and 8/4 quartersawn white oak.  You can get the low end of that range for 4/4 quartersawn sycamore.  The other half of the sycamore log will be junk or the lowest grade because it warps and twists so bad.  So, you are looking at about $1.00 to $4.00/bf as a range, and you would do good to average $2.00.  Too bad that my woods are not all walnut and cherry  :).

Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

backwoods sawyer

That sounds like you want to marry about ten wives. See how the first wife works out before you start dating the third one.
In other words, test the waters before you dive into being a faller / logger / sawmill operator / kiln operator / salesman / planer man / grader / millwright / ect. A good place to start would be to throw out most of the numbers and start off a bit more conservatively on the sales end and quite a bit higher on what your time investment will be. Bring in a batch of logs, hire a local sawyer to mill them up, and go from there. That will give you the best numbers to work with in building a solid plan to move forward with. Having standing trees that need managed is not a bad spot to be in, you may even find that you do not want to sell any of your wood and just use it yourself.
Backwoods Custom Milling Inc.
100% portable. . Oregons largest portable sawmill service, serving all of Oregon, from our Backwoods to yours..sawing since 1991

spencerhenry

just because there is 98mbf there right now, and you take 5mbf per year does not mean that you will have a lifetime supply. i have heard of a few occassions where a landowner figured that if the wood was worth 'x' now then years from now it will be worth 'x' plus the growth. several years after the first cruise, the landowner figures now it is ready and has it cruised again only to have the forester tell him that is is now worth 30% less. could be disease, blowdowns, change in the market etc...

krazykioti

No doubt the timber market is soft,I very well could have a hard time retailing lumber right now.I work as a machinist and that trade has also been very hard hit the last ten years,but it is slowly starting to turn around.As far as what size timber I have ,some of my cherry-maple-oak averages in size from 18-24 inches diameter at breast height.
I guess what I am thinking is takeing whats left of my IRA, that is left after the stock market crash and buying more timber land and machinery to start a small business.My wife is a public accountant so she can help me. I trust equity more that a yearly statement from an insurance company! I would like to ideally add another 135 acres to the 65 that I already have.Possibly my land could also be used also for recreational purposes.By building smaller cabins on my property and renting them out. Will the economy stay down forever? No,but no one has a crystal ball for when it will recover.Do I expect to get rich? No, but if I can build up long term equity without amassing debt I would be very happy!

stavebuyer

Making long term investments in timberland, developing recreational property, and using your present income to buy some equipment instead of paying taxes.....hard to go wrong. Bandmills especially hold there value very well. I wasn't trying to discourage you..just make sure that you have realistic expectations. You already have the land, tractor, and trees.

I'd go a step at a time. It's easier to spend money in this business than it is to get it back. Buy a small mill, offset it against against your taxes, saw up a few logs and see where it leads.

Ianab

 :D  It's VERY rare that someone gets told NOT to buy a sawmill here  :D

And investing in land is seldom a dumb idea, they aren't making any more of it....

If you can afford to buy some equipment that you can justify as a hobby or part time business, ie you don't have to make huge finance repayments each month then you can get started and use the mill to saw out lumber to build those cabins on the property. Once you have the mill, jobs and opportunities seem to come up. Some good, some will be "learning experiences"  :D

An analogy is a buying a boat. The guy that buys a boat doesn't justify it with all the money he's going to save buying fish. He just likes fishing, and can afford to do it. If he brings home a feed of fish, and makes some good friends that's a bonus. Doesn't mean he quits his day job and becomes a fisherman.

If you can afford a sawmill, and like sawing logs, then having a stash of wood to use for projects, and selling a bit for $$ is the bonus. I've sawn a lot more boards than my buddy has caught fish, and his boat is worth 5X what my mill is.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

stumpy

A very important point has been made on the forum by a few very experienced people. "Before you start a business selling lumber, find your customer first"  In most cases, taking the "saw it and they will come" approach, doesn't work very well.  One other thing, the places that sell oak for $7/bf do it by having a high rent storefront, employees, national advertising, reputation, and thousands of dollars of other inventory to draw the customer in.  I think you have a good opportunity here.  I would suggest the best first step, you've already done... join the forum and take advantage of what these people have to say.  Good luck, and even if you don't make alot of money, you'll have a ton of enjoyment sawing off your land.
Woodmizer LT30, NHL785 skidsteer, IH 444 tractor

jtbartlett

It seems like $25,000 isn't what it used to be and that's an awfully low return for your trees. If you decide to cut your own wood, for whatever reason, don't forget to calculate your depreciation on equipment against your income. I believe there's a straightline  50% depreciation this year for small businesses on the purchase of new equipment. That alone would be a make a huge bite into the suggested $25,000.  I think if I were in your shoes I'd be looking at a few mills.

DanG

Welcome to the Forum Kioti. :)  You have hit the jackpot on good, sound advice here, but there is one thing that hasn't been mentioned.  There is bound to be a lot of low grade logs on your land that would be sold for pulp if you just have the place logged.  You could get a log splitter or a small processor and make firewood to sell.  That would be a great way to maximize your income from a TSI if you don't mind a little bit of hard work.
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

paul case

i havent seen it so i dont know, but i would imagine after the logger gives you $25k you would spend the rest of a year or 2 cleaning up the tops. thats how big logging in my area works. i actually went in after a logger cut some timber on my aunts place and cut some 8'ers from the tops since the shortest they would take was 10'ers and a neighbor who sells firewood cut about 20 or 30 rick of firewood out of the tops all on 10 acres.

my suggestion is to let a forester help you decide what to let someone else cut. whether its high grading or just stand improvement, you may come up with enough cash to buy a mill and then mill some of whats left for yourself. something to keep in mind here also is size of mill and size of log, so it may work to your advantage to let some bigger stuff go and figure to cut the smaller stuff yourself. of course figure out a market first. milling for me wouldnt be nearly as much fun if i had to make a mill payment with it.

on a side note, buying land and cutting timber makes a lot of sense. on my ranch all the timber i cut for firewood, lumber or logs for sale is not an income that is taxable since i bought the timber when i purchased the land, or so my cpa says. mine is considered farm and only requires me to run farm tags(much cheaper than commercial) on my on road equipment. lots of plusses to it. talk to your tax preparer or cpa. it is well worth your time to do some reasearch here.

whatever you do  i wish you luck and be careful. the term honest logger gets a lot of laughs from a lot of folks for very good reason. pc
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

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