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Frick 00 Circle Saw

Started by Rigg, December 31, 2017, 11:24:13 AM

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Rigg

Yes, you guys are right.  I had forgotten.

I took the cover off today.  The PTO shaft runs in and then V belts over to the pulley on the mandrel.  Not sure the diameter off hand at least 12 inches or more.  Looks like at least a 3:1 ratio.

The other lever with the knob is for the log turner.
Frick 00, International UD-14A

Corley5

That ratio would be right for that engine rated at 1,400 RPMs.  Is the engine running at that speed ???
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

Rigg

Not sure.  Going to clean the air filter, change fuel filters and go from there.  Was 0 here this morning.  Hate to start old engines in this weather.  And had broken pipes to fix today.
Frick 00, International UD-14A

Gearbox

A bunch of chainsaws a BT6870 processer , TC 5 International track skidder and not near enough time

Corley5

I think you'll find that new fuel filters will make a BIG difference :) 
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

moodnacreek

So you do have a speed reduction. This is good.  If you can get the engine to perform and the mandrel and collars are good, it's going to be small inexpensive things to figure out and fix. The filing and lead are very important on any sawmill.

dgdrls

Good news Rig,

when you go back to the mill measure all your pulleys'
and if you can, get a tachometer reading on the motor
when you have it running well.  This will allow you to
compute your true blade Surface Feet Per Minute.

Also how many teeth?

Assuming 1400 RPM and a 3.1 reduction= 467 RPM. 
I believe that is too slow (5866 SFPM).

good luck,

D






Rigg

Ok, so cleaned the air cleaner out tonight.  Was pretty filthy.  Didn't try to run it yet. 

Next will be change oil and do the fuel filters.

The pulley coming off of the pto shaft is about a 7 3/4 to 7 7/8 diameter.  This is connected to the pulley on the mandrel by a 3 rib V belt.  That pulley is about 20 1/2 inches.    So I'm figuring (correct me if I'm wrong) is about a 2.6:1 ratio. 

So the engine should run 1400 rpm and the saw 538 rpm or close to 540 rpm.  Does this sound right?

Is a 3 rib belt good enough for the power?   Thought I read somewhere you needed one belt for every 20 hp. If my engine has 75 or so hp does it need 4 belts?
Frick 00, International UD-14A

moodnacreek

That is too slow especially for a 48" saw With a lot of teeth. However in the old days they would run even slower because of lack of power. I have sawed with less than 40 hp, slow speed and slow feed.  The hardest part is getting a saw hammered stiff enough to go slow [down to 250 rpm] but that's what they used to do.

Kbeitz

What about removing every 3rd or 4th tooth from the saw ?
Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

moodnacreek

Oh boy, not enough belts and small pulleys.  I run 6 C belts on a 9" driving a 24"  with 75 hp  electric.  75 hp diesel is not the same and you could get by with 4 C belts with at least a 9"  driver. Now that the pulleys are made in China they are much less expensive than formally.

moodnacreek

      Or put every other tooth in new. [considering they will be longer]  This will double the power but the saw will tend to dodge knots and other tough spots in the log.                           

Rigg

What speed does it need to be?

I have a couple other saw blades.  They are 2 1/2 style though.  I know one is a 48 inch with 44 teeth.

Every one I've talked to says that a 48 inch blade with 48 teeth is strange at least around here.  Most would have had a lot less teeth.  What is that blade supposed to be used with?

If I put a bigger pulley on the mandrel with 4 -6 grooves in it can I put a Detroit on it?   A guy not far from me has a 3-71 with a 3:1 advantage with 4 belts. Obviously, his saws a lot faster.

Frick 00, International UD-14A

Rigg

What kind of tach do I need exactly?
Frick 00, International UD-14A

Southside

I have one that is pretty simple to use.  Just attach a small square of reflective tape to the drive shaft, turn on the unit and point it at the shaft.  It would work on your saw blade just the same. The flashing light bounces off the tape and gives you a digital readout of the RPM. 

There are also Apps that kind of replicate the same thing using the LED on your phone, not quite as good as an actual tach, but it would probably get you an pretty good idea of where you are at. 
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Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
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White Oak Meadows

Corley5

  My tach is an old mechanical that you hold against the center end of the shaft.  I ran my 50" style 3 @ 500RPMs with the 403 MM and at 540 with the 706.  I forget how many teeth it has. 
  The last I sawed with the MM it wasn't pretty.  I thought it was the saw although I knew the engine wasn't up to par.  The saw wouldn't stay up.  The engine blew a head gasket and was spewing fire between the head and block and that was the end of it.  I rounded up a PTO shaft and hooked up the 706.  Night and day difference.
  Someday I'll get it set up again.  I like to saw :) good logs ;) ;D :)
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

Ron Wenrich

Number of teeth in a saw has to do with diameter and the style of shank you're using.  An F pattern saw will have more teeth, because the gullet size is smaller.  Its been awhile since I run an F, but I'm thinking my 56" saw had 50 teeth.  The B pattern had 46.  The shank style is stamped onto the shank.  If you have a letter B or F, that's designed mainly for hardwoods.  The numbered ones like 2 1/2, 3, or 3 1/2 are for softwoods. 

I've seen a 371 Detroit on small mills.  4 belts would be an absolute minimum for a mill.  I've used the dial tach like Corley describes.  Works well and maybe you could borrow one from another mill.  I've also seen the light one used and you can pick them up pretty cheap on Ebay. 

I don't know if you've looked at Lunstrum's manual on circle mills that was written for the Forest Service.  It has a ton of information in it, and will help you answer a lot of questions.  It's free and here's the link:

https://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/misc/circsaw.pdf
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Rigg

Thanks.  I think mine is F style shank.  Its hard to read on the shank. I have a mix of winter and summer shanks.  Does that matter?

I have that book printed out.  I just haven't been sure if I should be changing my setup yet.
Frick 00, International UD-14A

Ron Wenrich

I don't think mixing the shanks makes too much of a difference if they're spaced out evenly.  I don't think that a summer shank and a winter shank weigh the same.  Too many of one type on one side could put your saw out of balance. 

I ran all winter shanks and summer bits all the time.  What will happen if you have a winter shank and a standall bit is that you reduce the gullet size of your saw.  You can overload your saw and you'll hang your blade.  Or your dust will spill out of the gullets and it can push your saw and cause heat. 

Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Rigg

Thanks for all the help.

I had a box of standalls I wanted to put on but I think it was from reading your posts on here I knew I shouldn't put them on the winter shanks.   

I wasn't sure what I should be running when I realized I had a mix of summer and winter.   

My mill has been put together over the years by folks just making do with what they had at the time and trying to make a living.
Frick 00, International UD-14A

moodnacreek

Rig, You have a lot of useful equipment on your mill.  When you get it all fixed up and get into the rhythm of sawing, with some nice logs, you will wear out 2 men trying to take the lumber and slabs away.

HPPDRoss

Ive got an old semi truck with a 671 and a 10 speed transmission connected to my mill. I just cut the frame off at the back of the cab, cut the driveshaft and ran a pto shaft from the truck to the mill. It was alot cheaper for me doing it this way than buying a power unit. Just my 2 cents

Rigg

Thanks.  I may have to do something like that.   

I just finished cleaning air cleaner, fuel filters and changing the oil. 

Ran a poplar log through and it was cutting a lot faster.  Didn't lose power at all really compared to what it was doing.

I still have air in my lines though.   I feel like if I could figure that out I'd have all the power I'd need for awhile.  At least to cut enough lumber for a mill shed.

I'm going to keep an eye out for a 4-71 I think though.

Frick 00, International UD-14A

dgdrls

Sounds like you're heading the right way Rigg,

I would also keep an eye open for a 53 Series Detroit
or an air cooled Deutz.  The Deutz will use less fuel and be
quieter, 

Best

bandmiller2

For a power unit keep your eyes open for an old shovel or crane, they had modular power units and most have had good duty throughout their life. Also they have good governors which is very important. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

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