Greenhorn foresters

[fkarcha]

I've been reading the "what traits do you value in loggers" thread and it's forester counterpart.  There is a wealth of information there and I hope people keep adding to it. 

I will be graduating this (give or take some complications) and will be pursuing a career as a forester.  I hope to hear some stories from people in this industry regarding newly minted foresters:  How do loggers deal with them?  What do they like to see?  What experiences did other foresters have in their first few years?  What trials and tribulations did they go through?  What was your first AOP like?  Your first time supervising a harvest?

Was you education and experience up to the task of professional forestry?  Though I have a couple years of forest research and timber cruising experience, I imagine it will be a trial by fire sort of thing when I get hired as a forester.

So let's hear your greenhorn forester stories, experiences, and lessons learned.  Maybe I can glean some wisdom.

[Ron Wenrich]

I was never on a logging job as a green forester.  My first logging job I was a green choker setter.  I also did some duty as a powder monkey.  After that gig, I went to work at a mill and learned how to stack lumber, then scale and buy logs.  I knew the loggers before I ever hit the woods.

So, when I got to be a forester, I could talk to the loggers on a pretty personal basis, since I knew what their job entailed and actually had done it.  I never told them how to cut trees or how to skid.  These guys are pros and know their stuff.  I just told them what I expected at the end of the sale, and they always delivered.  Its give and take.  You're supposed to have all the details hammered out for them before they start.

Sometimes that little bit of practical experience goes farther than Forestry 401.   ;)

[thompsontimber]

Like Ron, I didn't hit the woods green out of school.  I grew up in a timber family and was running a skidder by age 13, and had ran a logging crew by the time I went to school.  I found that practical experience Ron mentioned to be the key factor as a young man working in the field of old loggers.

As for whether the education is up to the task, of course the knowledge is of incredible importance but there is no substitute for experience, so you are right to expect the trial by fire.  You will have to learn about the people you are working with, their abilities, what does and doesn't work.  You are bound to make mistakes and probably connect with a logger along the line that you regret having worked, but sure did learn a lot about how to do it different in the future. 

As usual, Ron's advice is sound.  Don't tell the guys how to do their job, they are professionals and different loggers will do it different ways.  Even if they aren't doing it the way you would do it, the important thing is that they get the job done in a suitable manner. Make your expections clear and concise before you ever put a logger to work, and be open to their concerns and suggestions.  Be the "boss" without being arrogant or telling them how to do a job they have been doing professionally well before you came along.  And remember to listen to your gut instinct about the people you are doing business with!

[ontariologger]

hey i was never brought up timber family but growing up i always wanted to log.  im still a green horn myself ive been logging for 2 years with a crew, the first winter and  most of the spring i was on the landing blocking firewood and splitting it. it wasnt intell then end of the spring that my boss brought me into the bush and started to teach me about felling trees and the dangours about it. Then i got put out with a cutter and he started to teach me more about trees and different technects and tricks.  know this year im in bush felling full time, and sum times on the landing blocking firewood which i dont mind.

im lucky i have got a chance to learn from the old guys and boy did i listen to them. ive found out from them what does and doesnt work,  little tricks stuff like that. you have to pay your dues before working your way up. im lucky enough that i got my chance at 17 to be a cutter

[thompsontimber]

I'll share a couple of my rather embarrassing moments as a newbie...those trials by fire can be painful!

My first one was a bad one, but it worked out well in the end, was an ideal circumstance for me, luckily.  I got my first job in procurement and hit the woods runnin with plenty of ambition.  I took a position with a company that had once had a big standing in the industry in the area I was working, but they had hired a few foresters in the prior years that had let things slide in that area, and we didn't have much of a face or status there anymore.  I was the new face, but getting loggers open to making switches and taking a chance with me was a bit difficult.  I was young, fresh out of school with no reputation, and I was asking them to leave their comfort zone and take a chance with me. I bought my first tract of timber, 50 acres, from a young man I had went to school with.  It was primarily 40+ year old Virginia pine that had some southern pine beetle activity and was in need of harvest.  I bought up some stumpage but didn't have a logging lineup to handle it.  I had inherited one logger who didn't meet my criteria for a good logger, so I let him go.  

Now I had pressure on me to get something going from my boss on the first job I had purchased on my own, and he suggested a logger that he had worked in the past and he spoke well of him.  I contacted the man and met with him and his two sons, walked the job, told them what I expected as far as product specs, etc.  They seemed eager to do the job, all the time reminding me how great a job they could do for me.  I was excited to get my first job underway,and of course the logger had a ringing endorsement from my boss, so all seemed ideal.  Unfortunately, they were not set up for a Virginia pine harvest.  They were mountain loggers used to primarily hardwood harvests and didn't even have a delimber.  The harvest was started in late July, and it was sure plenty hot.  They were working themselves to death in that Virginia pine.  The man was a preacher, so I was not all that surprised when, on payday of the second week there, his son calls me and says they are having revival at their church and were needing to get up the mountain early that day.  He asked if I'd be willing to meet them at the woodyard, as when they delivered that last load for the day they were heading on in.  Being the easy to get along with guy that I am, I agreed to help them out and do just that.  I meet with him, collect all his tickets and pay him accordingly.  We discuss the progress and the performance, all seems fine.  I leave the woodyard, go by the jobsite to inspect the progress for myself, only to find that every machine is gone.  They have packed up and moved out on me without a word, and got their money too.  I was so angry, I didn't know what to do.  I called my boss who didn't seem all that concerned, and that made me even more angry.  My anger was followed by fear and embarrassment. I had to contact the landowner and explain this ridiculous scenerio to him!  Luckily, he was very understanding and worked with me.  The preacher logger that vanished on me wouldn't even have the decency to return my calls, but his son did have the nerve to call and ask for a job cutting for me again a couple years later. I had to find another logger to come in behind the first one (never an easy task) and finish the job.  That worked out too, as I'm going on 6 years later and still working the crew that cleaned up my first mess.  Have cut several tracts for the original landowner too, and cut his dad's timber last summer.  That situation sure made me sweat though, and that was not the start I had envisioned for my career,nor the way I had hoped to start building a reputation in the industry.

[Ron Scott]

As mentioned above as having been mentored as a logger when starting out logging, the new forester should also be mentored by an experienced forester for a period of time to gain practical experience and learn the "tricks of the trade" in the field. One usually needs to work 3- 5 years under an experienced forester before they can receive any forester certification.

Always inform the logger of what you are doing and why you are doing it. If you practice good forestry in an ethical manner with best management practices, you will do well. The forester and the logger must work together as partners in getting the harvest operation "well done" according to the forest landowner's needs and objectives.

[woodtroll]

I am with Ron. I did logging work after school. It is real good to see the end result of management, and the hard work to get logs in from the woods. It gave me a basis for other types of logging jobs I administered later. The hardest part as a forester was firing the logger I once worked for, who taught me how to get a log out of the woods. He had been a good friend. Likely the hardest time I have had in my career.

[Tillaway]

I can't add any more.  Ron and the rest are right on the money.  The loggers know how to log, you just have to be able to communicate your vision for the final results, the logger can achieve these if you work with them.

[Tom]

Part of FKarcha's question was to hear some of the stories you foresters can tell of your first experiences.  I'm interested in story telling as much as I am in your expertise.  How about some stories?  Did you have a mentor?  What was the relationship?  What kind of dumb stuff (forestry related) did you get into in school?  What made you want to be a Forester?   Have you had the opportunity to mentor any young folks yourself?  With all the challenges I hear of, can Forestry still be fun?  What's the biggest trees you managed? Who have been your favorite customers?   

[Ron Scott]

Anyone who has worked for the USDA-Forest Service has had many mentors across all resource areas. As a new forester we were given intensive annual training plans that we had to complete under an assigned mentor with extensive experience in the specific training area whether it be reforestation, timber management, fire control, watershed management, recreation, wildlife, road & trail building, etc.

Some of my best mentors were well seasoned forestry aids and forestry technicians who had already spent 20-30 years in the field and had a great deal of experience and many "tricks of the trade" to pass on to the new forester. Many of my early mentors had come up through the CCC ranks. The older I get, the more I realize how "woods-wise" they were and how well they taught me.

I've also mentored a few foresters over the years and have been proud to see their forestry careers develop, some to very high levels in the organization.

[snowman]

OK heres my greenhorn story. Many years ago I was on a crew having a prework meeting with FS. The main forester brought along a young girl fresh outta college to show her the ropes. Well we were standing around shooting the breeze after the real meeting was over and the girl wandered off. Suddenly there she was about 100 feet away pulling her pants down to pee. The classic moon thing. She thought she had walked way off but just sorta went in a circle.When she was done the main forester called her name. She turned around we all started laughing.Her face turned redder than Rudolphs nose. Poor girl, I still laugh just thinking about it though. :D

[Gary_C]

Snowman, what no pictures?   ;D

I don't have a story, but from a loggers perspective the most important thing to learn is there is more than one right way to do a job. There have been comments made in some of the forest management guidelines training sessions that some jobs just cannot be cut properly as they are marked without doing a lot of damage. So one thing for a forester to learn, as some others have said, is to be prepared to be flexible. That means that even though you may well have marked the stand for your needs and those of the forest, be prepared to adjust for the loggers needs.

And overall, working with both foresters and loggers is no different than working with any other types of people. The majority are very good to work with and the problems with a few are more due to basic personality traits rather than education and training. So if you recognize that others may know at least as much as you do, you will get along just fine. And some people will second guess everything, no matter how well you do your job. You just have to recognize the difference between the contrairian and the one that is sincerely trying to understand what you are trying to accomplish.

[chevytaHOE5674]

That means that even though you may well have marked the stand for your needs and those of the forest, be prepared to adjust for the loggers needs.

How true that is, remember that each tree you mark will generally need to be removed. So with that in mind think of how the trees will be cut (hand sawyer, tracked feller buncher, dangle head processor, etc), and how they will be removed (skidder, forwarder, etc), and mark trees accordingly. 

Many times I've seen a forester mark a tree or two that are surrounded by leave trees, so there is no good way to remove the trees without doing considerable residual damage.

[snowman]

Marking timber has always been my biggest problem with foresters.I had one tell me, "if you were any good you'd find a way to make it hit the ground" so I did, I cut whatever leave tree i needed to, went round and round with that stubborn mule.Then some forester told me, just leave em hung up, let the hookers pull em out tree length.I told him I never leave a tree hung, never! The hookers may not see it and end up under it as they pull another drag out that loosens up the hanger which then falls on them.He told me tie a ribbon on the hangups. I told him ribbons get knocked off easy.He said use paint then. I said yeah, then it snows and covers up paint, any other great ideas? He just walked away, I cut his leave trees too.

[thompsontimber]

A couple of years ago I bought a tract of timber from an out of town landowner.  She lived in Maryland but came down to meet with me and go over all the details of the harvest.  We walked her property and I explained the mangement aspects and how we were gonna go about meeting her goals.  After all the paperwork was completed and we were about to part ways, she warned me that her sister lived in the old house on the property, and she was a bit eccentric.  She advised me to simply avoid her and not to worry about her or what she might have to say.  I was unsure what to expect, but a couple of months later we moved onto the tract and commenced to working.  Whew, what an experience!  It became obvious rather quickly that some sort of illegal activity was going on.  There was a gate on the driveway, and she was not happy that we had to take it down to get the log trucks in and out.  There was an awful lot of traffic, primarily car loads of teenagers, going in and out her driveway.  We were set up in the edge of a field and loading in driveway as requested by the landowner.  On occassion the cars coming in and out from the old house would get delayed for a few minutes as a truck was being loaded.  She came up there irrate, saying we were really hurting her "business."  I never asked her what drugs she was selling or anything, but I did go down to speak with her and try to calm her after the logger called and told me she was upset.  When I got there, she was fine, and didn't seem to recall why she was upset.  She then told me that she was not pleased with the fact that I had marked out a streamside buffer and did not intend to harvest the timber all the way to the creek.  I explained to her that it was necessary, and when I realized logic and sound reasoning wasn't going to appease her, just left it that the law requires that we leave buffers on streams.  She then told me that she understood all of that but that there was no stream on the property.  That's right, as we looked at the stream together, she attempted to convince me that it was not there.  She explained that she retains a geologist that helps her in her "work," and that it had been deemed the largest artesian well in the state of North Carolina and was definetely not a stream.  She needed it cleared completely because she was starting her malaysian shrimp farm in that artesian well the following year.  I didn't bother arguing with her, but refused to cut the buffer and she didn't bother with that anymore.  After various other incidents I won't go into detail with, we finally finished the job.  We were cleaning up and getting ready to go, and she left a signed photograph of a carved wooden fairy in my truck seat.  on the back of the photo she wrote, "sorry for being such an [I have typed a profane word that is automatically changed by the forum censored words program I should know better]."  I went out to thank her for the gesture and to assure her I didn't think her an [I have typed a profane word that is automatically changed by the forum censored words program I should know better] (and didn't share that i did think her a nutcase).  Inside she had beautiful carved wood everywhere.  She told me how the southern pine beetle had gotten into her antique oak furniture and ate it (oh yeah, that's right), and told me how she had over 2 million dollars in back orders to fill in her wood carving business.  She made her living as an artist.  I was blown away as the craftsmanship was excellent.  I contacte the sister back in Maryland, and she said that indeed her sister makes those carvings and could be extremely wealthy with her talent, but that drugs had basically fried her brain, and it all goes to waste.  The old woman lives basically in poverty, and sells drugs out of her wood carving shack.  Ah, a sad but true story.

[thompsontimber]

I have been censored....I am so ashamed :(

[Paul_H]

No need to be ashamed,you can always go back and modify your post and clean it up a bit.Foul language is changed automatically by the forum's software.

[fkarcha]

Great stuff so far folks.  I appreciate the responses.  Like Tom said, the more the better.  I am very interested in hearing everyone's experiences.

[BaldBob]

My first logging job as a logging supervisor for a large timber company was one that was on a timber contract that, though it was ten years old, was about to expire.  I suspect that previous logging supervisors had put off logging it because of its difficulty.  I was told that I had to get it logged before the contract expired.

Though the terrain on the tract itself was only mildly challenging ( required the use of a jammer rather than ground based skidding on some of the steeper ground) and the tract was only ~ 2 miles from a paved county road, the elevation of the tract was mostly at ~ 4600' while the county road was at ~2300'.  Since the first 1/2 mile to the tract was over almost flat ground, most of the road required pretty steep grades (12-16%) and many switchbacks. I felt pretty proud of the job I did laying out and getting the road to the tract built.

It was pretty foggy when I took the logger I had chosen to see the site.  He had no problems when we went up the single lane with turnouts, full-benched insloped dirt road to the tract. Nor any problems as we toured the tract and went over the contract requirements, and my expectations; and it appeared likely that we would reach agreement on a logging price.  However,  the fog cleared just as we were about to leave the tract to return to the office to negotiate final terms and price.  He took one look towards the county road far below and turned ashen gray.  By the time we got to the bottom he informed me that he was never going up there again.

I finally found a logger to get the job done, but not without great difficulty.

[Ron Wenrich]

As the forester, you're going to have to take all the heat from the neighbors.  One day I got a call from the logger who was logging one of my tracts.  He said the neighbor came over with a gun and said that they were cutting over the line.  I was to take care of it.

This particular tract had some problems with the deed.  It was old and incomplete.  We had pieced the tract together using the surrounding deeds.   I felt we had a pretty good sale layout, and this particular landowner wasn't really a problem.

I met with the landowner and took him out to the area in question.  He showed me 2 ribbons and how they cut beyond those ribbons.  Then I pointed out where his lines were, and that there was a corner beyond those 2 ribbons.  That particular corner was an in line corner on his line.  He never knew it was there.  He was impressed.

On further discussion, I asked about him showing up with a gun.  He said he was just groundhog hunting and happened to go down to talk to the logger.  After a good long visit, the guy then asked me if I would sell his timber. 

So, here was a case where if the logger had gone up to talk to the landowner, he would have been able to buy his timber.  Instead, I got to sell it.  Not all visits turn out this good.   ;)

[thompsontimber]

Yeah Ron, you nailed it with the neighbors, that can get interesting.  Back when I was about 15 and running a skidder for the logging crew, we cut a tract down a small paved drive with a few houses on it and a pond at the end.  We proceeded right on by the pond and into the timber beyond the dead end road.  It was during the heat of summer and they decided to treat us to a meal in a restaurant up the road where we could enjoy the air conditioning and relax a bit.  When we started back to the job, there was an Oldsmobile parked right in the middle of the road, no getting around it.  We parked, looked for an owner, and couldn't figure out why the car was there.  Then one of the homeowners watching us made his way down to the road to speak with us.  He informed us that the lady at the end of the road parked the car there.  She had keys made for the car for each of her neighbors it blocked and told them they could move it when they needed in and out, but she was blocking those loggers from accessing down her road.  We went to speak with the lady and she was adament that the car was staying--she didn't like logging and we were not gonna be driving past her house stirring up dust and killing trees, period.  We told her it was a public road, we had a right to use it, and she couldn't stop us, but it was like talking to a wall.  Rather than calling the police they first called the landowner to explain the situation.  He was a rather wealthy man who owned a local concrete company and apprantly had a pretty short fuse.  He drove over there immediately.  We were all standing in the road, along with the woman blocking it.  He got out, without speaking to her asked if they minded if he used our skidder for a moment.  My dad said yeah, I suppose you can.  He then turned to her and told her to move her car before he got back up there with that skidder, or else he was gonna move it right on into her yard for her.  She moved the car and then she called the police.  The officer set her straight on the road block and we never had any more trouble out of her.  It was a memorable day for the skidder operator though, as I got out of working in that heat and dust for an extra hour!