Greenie needing advice

[der7]

Hi everyone! 

I appreciate this forum and am hoping that I can learn a lot here from all of you.  I have a few questions and hope that you may be able to steer me in the right direction.  Okay here is a little background:

I have 7 acres of land with mostly white oak, cedar, and "junk" black jack oak trees.  I live in Missouri.  I have roads that I cut a year ago and a lot of trees that have been uprooted just laying on the sides of these roads.  I was going to use them as firewood, but then I realized "I should be using my own wood!"  I have a 20 foot wide road that I cut to go around a future shop for easy access from the main road.  This land is in the country.  I also have a small store front property off the main highway in town that I could use to sell my woods and services etc.  Both properties do not have any building structures on them.

I have three old mobile homes that I need to move off of my other piece of property asap.  I made a proposal to build three homes in the future and the city approved it.  Now I need to move the trailers.  The challenge is one of the trailers is my current residence.  I was planning on building a cabin on my 7 acres to live in.  The trailers are very old and have black mold in sections.  I was thinking I could use some of it for wood to help build the cabin.

It would be nice to use my white oak to frame with but don't I need to dry them for a year first?  Or should I consider framing a cabin with green wood?  If I purchase lumber to build the cabin, I am wasting funds that I could use toward buying a saw mill.  I've been looking at models from $5000-$12000.  I want to start off small, as I will be using most the wood I mill for myself initially.

I plan on building three custom homes that I will sell or rent over the next couple of years.  I think if I could make my own wood for building with, it would be a nice niche for me.

My trailer property has 4 black walnut trees that have to be taken down due to the construction of the new homes in the future.    So my resources are cedar, black walnut, and white oak.  I would like to use the cedar and black walnut for finish work with floors and cabinets.  I don't have any pine trees, though I wish I did.

My neighbor has a wood-mizer, full hydrolics, that is just sitting in his garage.  He used to do custom cutting in the 90's.  He doesn't do this any more.  He offered to walk around the property with me and help me identify trees.

I have done a lot of remodels in the past and that is how I acquired my properties.  I've been wanting to start another business and it seems that perhaps this would be a good place to start.

My 7 acres has three phase electricity available because the lot across from me is a steel shop.  They paid $100k to get this electricity from the city into the country. I paid less for my land across the street. 

Okay here are some questions:

Should I scrap my three 15x60 trailers for a little cash or convert the frames to use for hauling wood logs?

Can I frame with green wood or should I wait?  If I wait I need to frame up something to live in.  I'm sick of living in the old trailer homes with black mold.  I really just want to scrap them.  I already have my footers dug and plan on pouring concrete next month.

Should I consider making trades on my lumber.  For instance some black walnut or cedar for some pine to frame with?

It is possible that I could use my neighbors Wood-Mizer initially to cut myself some wood.  He also told me he has built a kiln before.  Perhaps I could discuss this further with him.

Basically my current resources are my properties, three old mobile homes, Durango 2003 with V8 engine, a 6x12 trailer I use to haul my tools and supplies with, 7 acres of land, and a 150x100 store front property that I could build a retail store on.

Oh I should add that I have a lot of friends that are framers and so my resources for building myself a home, a shop, and a store front are readily available at minimal costs.

Any advice and ideas is appreciated!

Thanks,
Anthony

[beenthere]

der7
Welcome to the Forestry Forum.
A lot of questions, but in between the lines, I gather that you have a pretty good idea how you want to proceed. All will happen, one step at a time.
You know your limitations better than anyone else, so take it all in stride and move forward to your goal.

Don't count out the cheap material at the box stores, as there are places where getting it done plenty good enough is best in reaching your goal.

Good luck to you, and others will surely chime in here.

[Ianab]

Should I scrap my three 15x60 trailers for a little cash or convert the frames to use for hauling wood logs?

You are going to need some way to move logs. Building a "Forestry Arch" from scrap steel is an option. That and a good winch should let you drag logs out of the forest with your pickup. A trailer is better for moving logs over the road, but not so easy to manoeuvre and load in the forest.

Can I frame with green wood or should I wait?

It's possible. You still have to let the wood dry, just you do it in place. So you don't want to rush in to fitting vapour barriers and insulation until that moisture is gone, otherwise you are back to the mould issues in the new house. Trim and floorboards etc need to be properly dry or you get all sorts of gaps and movement as it dries. But if you build a solar kiln you can get hardwood dry in maybe 6 weeks. Cedar will probably air dry in the same time.

Should I consider making trades on my lumber.  For instance some black walnut or cedar for some pine to frame with?

That's an option. Depends what your local market is like for the wood. But if you can sell some green walnut for maybe $2 a bd/ft, and buy dry construction grade pine for 50c it makes sense.

Neighbours mill? That's an option if you want to "get your feet wet" without committing to your own mill right away. Lets you work out the logistics of harvesting logs, getting them sawn and dried. You can see how a mill operates etc. Once you've processed a few trees you will have a better idea how you want to proceed. You will either be hooked on the idea and buy your own mill, or decide it's all too much work and head down to the lumber yard and buy your supplies there. My money is on the "hooked"  :D

Does the neighbour want to sell the mill  ???

Good luck anyway. It can all be done, just a matter of breaking the process down into stages. Harvest logs, saw logs, dry boards (or use green construction techniques), then you are back in familiar house building territory that you know.

Ian

[GAB]

der7:
Welcome to the forum.
Recently I heard of a fellow who sawed out (pine) 2x6's for the frame of a house and stacked the lumber and let it air dry for a few months.  He then put the lumber back on the mill and resized it to 5-1/2" as that is what boxstore lumber is and that is what the doors and windows are manufactured for.  Claims that it came out very well as far as squareness as the resawing eliminated a lot of the bows etc. 
The 150 x 100 lot would be a great place to set up a mill as far as advertising is concerned.  Active machinery attracts buyers and spectators.  Both make for more good advertising.   Gerald

[der7]

I appreciate all the comments so far.  Very encouraging!    I will read through the posts to learn about solar kiln.  If you have any particular links to design plans that would also be helpful. 

Thanks again Everyone!

[thenorthman]

before you get all excitable about using your own timber...

Some states require a grade stamp on every stick of lumber used to frame a house, check with locale regulations before proceeding...

Otherwise I say do it and don't look  back, if I had the land and the timber to do so I would totally build my own house from scratch... (building codes are nice and all but they are a bit overdone and leave very little room for creativity)

[Ianab]

Certainly check what the local laws say. There may also be legal loopholes as an "owner builder" using material from your own land etc. Find out what the actual rules are as sometimes building inspectors will simply say "must be graded", when this is not actually the case, or there are (legal) ways around the regulations.

Even if you are stuck with a MUST use graded rule, it's still not a total loss. This is only for the hidden structural components. You can buy cheap construction grade wood pretty cheap. It may not even be as good as the stuff you can saw yourself, but it's got that stamp, so it's good to go. Cladding, flooring and all the interior trim can be your own wood, and that's the stuff you see, a major part of the cost, and having that real oak floor and walnut trim makes the house appear much higher end than painted MDF. Likewise for a deck and fences.

Ian

[SwampDonkey]

Also, I don't know anything about the inner workings of your utility company. But if the guy across the street had to pay all those $$ for his three phase line, I would be willing to bet the same utility company would be charging others a premium for additional hookup to rebate the first guy. That's the way I've seen it work with our utility company.

And do be careful about local regulations on building codes. If your town scrutinizes the tearing down and rebuilding of new dwellings the inspector may be looking for grade lumber in the structure. And some insurance companies as well as any financing may require stamped lumber.

Good luck though. I hope you can use your own sawlogs. But make sure the lumber is dry because a house is not like a shed or barn, you have to live in it. Wood moves when it dries and fungus or bacteria like green or wet wood to germinate on. A damp house ain't good health wise and wood wise.

[thecfarm]

der7,welcome to the forum. I have no idea how much that neighbor knows,but he might be able to offer some advise too. I hope good and correct advise too.

[der7]

All very good info!  Thanks!  I can use it for local use but how do I sell it commercially?  Does anyone here sell lumber and have it grade stamped?  If I want to sell it across states how does that work?  I'm thinking in the future to purchase 60 acres+ of land a couple hours from here that is all pine trees.

I live in Missouri.  I live in the most deregulated building area in the nation.  Most importantly my 7 acres has no building inspectors or codes and we can build whatever we want.  The Amish live 15 minutes from my property and I buy from them periodically.  They keep this area deregulated because of this making things easy.  My neighbor built his home with his own lumber but made a mistake and insulated it while wet.  He's had problems with it shifting ever since. 

I work with the building inspector regularly.  So for local use it's no big deal.  I already have the approvals to build with my own lumber on my commercial shop and my home.  The hook ups for three phase here are very inexpensive as well.  The reason it cost them so much is that they had to have it brought in from 10 miles away.  I can build what I want with my own timber without any issues to launch both a retail store in the city/town and use my 7 acres as a mill.

I have friends in Canada who have a huge mill where they treat wood.  They have welcomed me to go there for a couple weeks and work with them to learn the trade.  Do you all think that's a good idea?  It occurred to me if I'm patient and don't buy any equipment until next year,  I can pay off both my properties this year.  That way I own both my 7 acres and commercial property free and clear and don't have to worry about any payments.  Then I can take all my cashflow and focus on the business.  I am going to try and see if my neighbor will let me lease or buy his Wood-Mizer 35.  He's actually the co-owner of the steel shop across the street!  He could walk across the street anytime to check on his gear and I could visit him if I need help as well. 

I suppose I can suck it up and live in a mobile trailer on my land for another 6 months to get this thing going.  My uncle is retired but spent his career selling timber to hardware stores.  He's coming in town next month with my dad to play in Branson.  I'm going to pick his brain on the business as well.

[thenorthman]

as much as Mobile homes suck, they are certainly better than sleeping outdoors, or in a van down by the river.

Sounds like you got the finances to pull this off maybe...

You are going to keep us all posted as to progress right?  Sound like a project I wouldn't mind doing myself, gotta find the dirt first... and you know pay for it and stuff...

[der7]

Good point thenorthman.  At least I have a roof over my head.  I am more then happy to keep you all posted on the progress.  I'm going to take my time and pay off the properties first.  I want to do this on a cash basis so that when the slow months come I don't lose my business.

I have another question.  Once I purchase the mill saw I plan to get either an atv and a log trailer or a used skidsteer.  Which would you all recommend I start with?

[thenorthman]

simple log arch and a mid sized 4 wheeler, does a whole bunch of home loggers good, can go just about anywhere, and light enough to be pulled out by hand if necessary.  Skidsteers are nice too but not so happy in rougher terrain, allthough you can use them to load the mill faster then some of the loader options on the smaller mills.  ATV is probably a cheaper option as well.  If your going to be using your neighbors wood mizer hydro, I believe they came with a pretty good loader on em from the factory... don't quote me on that one though...

[Ianab]

ATV and a log arch is more use for hauling logs any distance. I would suggest an arch instead of a trailer, less weight and easier loading.

A skid steer is more use around the mill, moving logs and stacks of boards around. Probably going to be more use around a building site too? But you don't want to be bouncing around in one carrying a log for 1/2 a mile.

Another option is a small farm tractor with a front end loader. Heavier than a ATV, so more suited to towing heavy logs under an arch. Forks on the FEL, or on the 3 point hitch lets you move logs and stacks of boards.  Not as fast as an ATV, but travels better than a skid steer.

There is no one machine that's perfect for everything. I'd consider what other uses you have for any machine like this that you buy. Any of them can be utilised in some way, so you see a lot of small scale logging is done with whatever machinery the person has access to.

Ian

[mad murdock]

Welcome der7.  7 acres won't be a deep well to draw from long term for selling lumber.  Might be enough to get you started though.  If your fab skills are up to task, you cod build a nice mill of some style using one of your re-purposes mobile home frames.  There are places that will sell you piece parts, kits, or even welded sub assemblies to speed up the construction process, the less tabbing you do the more $$ it will cost. 100 different ways to break yourself in, whichever way you go, you will do well with a well thought out plan and a lot of properly applied elbow grease. It can be very rewarding, and a ton of fun!!

[Ianab]

I don't think he want's to get into the lumber business, just harvest and mill some of the trees to build a house and a couple of cabins on the site. Something that could be done with a manual sawmill and a small tractor to move logs, or doing a deal with the neighbour and using his bigger hydraulic mill.

Ian

[mesquite buckeye]

If you are going to frame in oak, nail it green. Lots easier and splits less.

[ely]

sounds to me like you have a great plan, stick with it and do not get discouraged, i am in the process of building my own home and it is a slow process, way too slow according to my lovely wife. ;D

[der7]

My plan is to purchase an atv, skidsteer, and a tractor.  The atv with an arch sounds like a good place to start then grow from there.  I want to start out small and build my own place then figure out the value of having a shop on my commercial property.  Because I'm not certain which way to go I will either work with my neighbor or consider purchasing a Norwood.  I like the fact that the Norwood machine can grow with me if I end up needing hydrolics.  If not then I have a manual mill for my own needs.

I am really impressed with the mizer-lathe.  Could I make that work with a new Norwood?  Any suggestions on this?  It is hard to justify the cost of a saw mill and a separate lathe if the cost of a Wood Mizer is about the same.  Might as well get a Wood Mizer.  But for the money a Norwood fits better in with my budget.  Still waiting to talk to the neighbor. 

[thenorthman]

One 6 pack of good beer, a welder, an oxyacytalyne torch, and a decent pile of scrap metal and anything is possible, the beer is optional or for spectators... and get a fire extinguisher. :D


As far as the two manufactures being bolt on fit, I would say its unlikely, but easily solved with the above gear...

[der7]

  Sounds like a good plan to me.