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Log lot management problems

Started by Bibbyman, May 27, 2005, 09:38:52 PM

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Bibbyman

Has anyone given any thoughts to their logs and "finished good" yard(s).

Our log lot is always in some kind of mess no matter how hard I try to keep it organized. 

We started out 11 years ago just going to do a little custom sawing on the weekends.  We'd never have over a couple dozen logs around the mill at any one time.  Mary wouldn't let me take down the fence across from the mill because it was her horse lot.  Well,  the fence soon got set back and then later set back again and then later moved all together and then she shipped the horses all together.



We've expanded the lot a couple of times in recant years and just this spring pulled up fence, leveled and cleared about doubled the size.  (Still needs gravel and packed.)

Right now we've got a couple thousand logs on the lot – maybe far more at any one time.  About half are owned by us and the other half is owned by about a half dozen customers – some having as few as one and our log broker having as many as a thousand. 

We've got some customer's logs stacked on the back of our lot that have been moved a couple of times over a couple of years.  We see them and ask "When are you ready to get those logs sawed"..  "Soon. Well let you know."

It's getting to be quite a chore to keep all this straight.   We are continually moving and sorting. We've put over 900 hours on our Terex in two years.  Plus we still use our tractor w/loader to move slabs, etc.

One problem we have is when we get new logs,  we sort them out and they go over old logs.  Sometimes we don't get down to the old logs for a couple of years – unless we make an effort to dig through a hundred logs to get to them.   Most of the time the oak logs are still sound enough for fence lumber but the sap is too far gone.  Some logs are just junk by then.

Our "finished good" storage is a mess too.  We'll saw out a custom order and set it out expecting the owners to come right away to pick it up.  But they seldom do.  Then we saw out more orders and they are setting around.  By the time the earlier customer comes to pick up his lumber, it's behind a couple of others.  And they're always blocking our lumber somehow.  Mary often times pulls more logs and saws out an order rather then look for and dig out something we've already sawn.

I sure envy sawmills that saw only for themselves and then only one product.  Up the highway is a stave mill that,  I hear,  saws 50-80 mbf/day.  Yet their log yard is not that much bigger than ours.  They have quite a few logs but probably only 3-5 days worth at any one time.

Anyone else got this problem??  >:(
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

arj

I have that problem TOO!!!!!!!!! Only on a smaller scale. Can`t wait for some good suggestions.
                                          arj

Kirk_Allen

I by no means have that big of a problem but here is what I did with my SMALL log lot. 

I too serperate them by species.  I have 8 different rows of logs.  Each a different species.  What I did when I set this up is ensure that I can get to each row from either the front or the back.  Another words, I could pull my mill up and cut on either side of each row.  This lets me focus on the old logs first with the option of doing fresh logs, like from a customer. 

I was piling them up with only one side being accesable.  That was a nightmare.  Same problem you mention.  Old logs NEVER get cut. 

Havent had a problem with the customers getting their order YET.  I have a feeling Monday when the farmer sees how many posts I got out of his Osage logs he is going to freak and tell me he dont need 250 posts ;D 


Frank_Pender

Kir, you asre toooo organized.  I like the mess, most of the time.  It shows folks I am doing something besides sorting logs all the time. :D
Frank Pender

Brucer

Quote from: Bibbyman on May 27, 2005, 09:38:52 PM

Anyone else got this problem??  >:(


I suspect it's more a case of "anyone else not got this problem?"

When I sawed for Louis last year he'd just got set up on his newly-rented bit of land. He started off trying to keep it ogranized -- room for a truckload of logs, room to pile the orders, even room to sort the big orders by size of timber. Things were organized but real crowded until we finally shipped out our first truck load of timbers and suddenly we had all this free space to put stuff. Didn't take but a week to lose control. After that we were never able to get back on top of things. There was a heck of a lot of shifting and reshifting of logs and lumber. This was a much smaller scale than your operation -- between 12 and 50 logs (45 footers) on the ground at any one time. Same problem, though.

I'm only just getting set up myself this year, and I'm dtermined to keep things organized  :D. Easy to say, hard to do. I'm aiming for small piles of logs (one for each species) with space to start new piles before the older ones get buried. This is not space-efficient as I'll have a much higher proportion of access corridors. That means I'll have to keep the wood moving through the system.

Customer's logs and species that are low in demand will get stored farthest from the mill, in various "nooks and cranies" around the property. I'll have to shift them a considerable distance when they need to be sawed, but only the once.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

Bibbyman

Here are some pictures I took on the last day of 2004.


I'm standing on a stack of logs looking north. (See my shadow aginst the logs ouside the sawshed).  The area in the upper left is where we cleared for more lot. It's hard to tell but there are 4-5 TT loads of walnut on that right side of the road.


This is taken from the same spot but of the left side of the drive.


Now I've moved back and climbed up on a pile of logs on the back side of the lot.  The picture is of the back side of the logs in the picture above. These logs are our oak sawlogs sorted buy length - two rows of 8' and two of 10'.  We can get to them from the "steet side" or the back side.



A little further up the road. To the left of the 10' oak is the 12' oak logs. Note that the path to circle around the oak logs has been cut off by another load of wanut being unload right in the way..  There is limited space for a TT to turn around and unload or unload.


Some more on the back side.  There are some of our 14' and longer back here and a lot of stuff that'd come in and not sorted. 

Not shown are the stacks of our red oak grade logs that I was standing on to take these pictures - plus a bunch of odds and ends back in behind me.   As it was near sundown,  I couldn't get a picture of them facing into the sun.  But you get an idea.

Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Quartlow

I only wish I had that problem  :D :D

But it wouldn't take long for me to get in that situation. Real estate is at a premium around the barnyard. I've discussed it with the cousin and my solution is I'm going to store logs in the pasture when I run out of room in the barn yard.
Breezewood 24 inch mill
Have a wooderful day!!

Ron Wenrich

Most guys can't keep a handle on log inventories.  It results in several problems.  The biggest problem is degrade.  Our medium sized operation probably lost about $50,000 due to degrade in tulip poplar and red oak.  Once the sap stain sets in, the value drops really quick.  You also lose due to end check.

The other problem is that when the logs start to dry out, your sawing time is increased, so you fall even further behind.  It also increase your sawing costs by dulling blades quicker and slowing your feed rate to accomodate hardness.

Access to both ends is pretty much key to keeping fresh logs.  You can also raise them up by putting logs on pulpwood.  It keeps the logs out of the mud, and that should help through out the operation.  

Either increase your production, or put a halt on logs coming in.  Your broker has dumped a lot of logs, and now you are his concentration yard.  That's OK, but his logs are losing value.  

We eventually managed to bring the inventory under control by regulating woods cutting.  You don't have that option.  

As for the lumber yard, that's a tough one.  We saw for commercial interests and have to store lumber for only 1-2 weeks,   We usually push out at least a load a day, somedays 2.  But, they are seperated to several different destinations.

We do have stuff that is saved until a customer comes around.  We have lumber that has rotted and then gets thrown into the chipper.  

The only thing you can do is stack it up.  I have seen stacking decks made from 6x6 timbers where you could get into both sides of the stack.  They are put 2' apart to accomodate sticked lumber.  Each rack is 16' long and can hold about 8-10 Mbf.  It all depends on your equipment, but you can stack really high without it falling over.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Bibbyman

The pictures above were taken at the end of 2004.  Here's how we got that way.

A couple of winters ago we ran out of logs. Orders remained high (for us) and the weather conditions were bad so the loggers couldn't cut.  We were hand to mouth for a couple of months – even resorted to cutting some of our own trees to fill orders.

Mary does not like to run out of things so when she has an opportunity to buy, she does.  We had enough to go through the next winter and it wasn't as bad logging conditions.  Then last year the loggers just kept on bringing in logs.  Had one part time logger have a falling out with the land owner and left him with a good number of logs yarded up and cut in the woods.  After a year,  it all got settled and the land owner brought the logs to us.  By then they'd already started to sap rot.

So that's how we got so much inventory on December 31, 2004.

This past winter has been kind to loggers and we even had a very warm dry spell at the end of winter.  Logs kept coming in even though we were not buying many.  A BUNCH from the log broker and a lot from farmers wanting custom sawing done.

We have managed to reduce a good many of our own inventory of logs filling orders and consolidated some of the piles.

Our biggest loss is with the red oak grade logs.  The sap has turned gray to getting soft.  Plus the market has dropped.  We're saying some of them up into farm lumber as we can get about the same return (now).  This is our fault because we should have sawn them last fall and winter but couldn't get around to it for all the other work going on..
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Minnesota_boy

Something that may help out is an older truck with a loader on it.  It can allow you to reach over the pile and take the older logs from the back first, if the pile isn't too long.  The truck doesn't have to be road-worthy and won't need a license if it stays on your property.  Trucks are made for hauling and can take a lot of wear and tear off your Terex.  You can park it at the end of your live deck and just load the amount on at a time that you need.  It is an extra expense and will require maintenance but it may save enough on your Terex to pay off.
I eat a high-fiber diet.  Lots of sawdust!

Tom

I know that it is threatening to ones reputation but "production" is the only real answer I can think of.  That means another sawmill and sawyer.   Perhaps your having another smaller mkll that could pick up the slack would be an option.  It might be somethig that a son could run without having to depend on his being there every day.  It may have wheels and provide him with an opportunity to start his own portable custom sawing business.

Another option may be to hire someone, within range, who has a portable custom sawing businesss.  That would give you the option of higher production without the problems of keeping your own extra equipment busy.

Gary_C

I would have to agree with Minesota Boy. Without a knuckle boom loader, a log yard like you are showing will be unmanageable. With either an older truck mounted loader or an older forwarder, you can pick logs from the ends and the middle of the logs. This allows you to stack in long rows and still be able to pick the oldest first without moving the entire row. Also you can easily pick and sort and carry what you need back to the mill.

Check out    http://www.richardsmachinery.com
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Bibbyman

Yes,  I've eyed knuckle boom loaders but we don't even have a live deck yet.  The Terex with 9' shooting boom works real well in sorting logs in a stack – I can pick up a log and place it well forward in the stack.  I'm not ready to get yet another piece of euipment to work on and keep running.

Tom, it's true we need to increase our production.  We have the business and logs.

Our two sons are not an option.  They've been introduced to hard work and don't like it.  4-5 years back we bought a second WM mill because one son said he'd run it 3 days a week.   Got it home and I can't remember him even running it once.  "Other things" kept coming up – like deer season, fishing, etc.  After two years,  we sold them both and stepped up to the LT40HDE25 Super.

I think a more viable option would be to turn Mormon and get 3-4 good hard working wives.  But keeping them all happy may be more work than what we're up against now.   ;D

I just posted that we were working down our backlog of logs.  Well,  I got home the other night and the "receiving area" was covered with logs. Asked Mary where they came from.  Said one of the bigger logging outfits were logging off a neighbor and wanted to sale us some of their top logs because they had to haul them so far (and we were just a short distance.) She told them she needed 14' and would take some 12's and 16's.   She got about half 14s,  some 12's and the rest 8s and 10s.   About 1/4 were blocking log at best to cull.   She's not paid for them yet – I told her to sort out all the junk and tell them we're not buying them.  They can take them back or leave them.  Maybe this will slow them down from bringing in their junk logs and "dumping" them on us.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

leweee

Quote from: Bibbyman on May 29, 2005, 01:05:14 PM


I think a more viable option would be to turn Mormon and get 3-4 good hard working wives.  But keeping them all happy may be more work than what we're up against now.   ;D





Trust me ....a knuckleboom would be alot cheaper & less work to maintain :D
Sounds like you need a gate & lock on that recieveing area....and big sign...
" NO UNAUTHURIZED DUMPING" ;D
just another beaver with a chainsaw &  it's never so bad that it couldn't get worse.

trim4u2nv

Real estate is at a real premium here.   One big problem we had was raw material and finish goods storage.   Found by using an acess road (behind or around the piles instead of 1 side) helped quite a bit.  If you're lucky enough to have the space for more roadway.  Another trick in a tight space was to camber the lumber in smaller piles at a 45 degree angle so the forklift could lift over the pile in front of it.  Also this made maneuvering easier just like in an angled parking lot.  Its a lot easier to back a forklift at a 45 degree angle than a 90 degree angle in a narrow aisle.  Just get a set of dominoes and a copy of your survey (or aerial photo) map and have each domino represent a stack of lumber.  Label them with avery file labels.  Its a lot easier to move dominoes than a bunk of lumber in the planning and tracking.  A crane or loader would sure help but they always break when you need them the most.

Bibbyman

I think one of our problems is that we do a lot of "saw to order" business.  One guy calls and wants 10 – 12' 6x6s so we dig through the 12' log stack to find nice straight logs – not too big and with good hearts to saw them out.  We may need to sort through 50 logs to find them.   Next guy needs 100 1x6s 8' long but he wants them out of white oak.

I bet every log on the lot gets moved an average of 5 times before it hits the mill.  But you can't guess what the next guy wants and there ain't enough room under roof to stick and store the lumber.  We've sold a good big of air dried lumber we've sawn while filling out other orders but only if it's still bright.  If it's been in the sun and turned gray,  it don't sale too good.

Another problem is all the small custom sawing jobs we still get.  I've been referring some of our new customers to Mule-Man and to other mills in the area and some have went that way but we still keep picking up new customers.  Our "word of mouth" has got too big!

Real estate in acres is not a problem as we have 215 of them.  We have 1/4 mile of privet road from our property line until we get to the mill that we could dump logs onto.  It just that the logs just keep getting further from the mill.  I'm trying to open up the area across from the mill to "stage" logs for our next run.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

JimBuis

Well Bibbyman your situation reminds me of a story.......... ::)  I work in a school maintenance shop with two other guys.  One of 'em's my boss who's been here for about 10 years, so he's got lots of ideas about what works and what doesn't.  My other partner and I have only been here two years although we are both a bit older and more experienced than our boss.  :o  The shop has always had the tools organized on peg boards and some in plastic boxes hung on the wall.  We never had a tool chest.  We could never find ANYTHING without spending more time looking for tools than it takes to do the repair job. ;D  I talked him into getting a real nice stackable tool cabinet and tool chest, then I spent a good bit of time organizing everything into it. ;)  Well.....my boss nowadays......comes up to me and asks me where he can find a screwdriver or some similar thing.  My answer ???   Duh......maybe in the screwdriver drawer of the tool chest?? :D

The moral of my story?  Organizing is time consuming and sometimes frustrating, but worth it in the long run. ;)  The problem with most of us is that we don't think we have time to organize to begin with or that we don't have time to stick with the plan over time.  It is ironic though that we DON'T have time to organize, but we DO have time to hunt for stuff.

I'd set up an inventory plan for those logs and no matter how painful get it set up and stick to it.  I think you'd find it more profitable than having some percentage of your logs go bad on you for not being able to get to them or having to move everything continually. :P
Jim Buis                             Peterson 10" WPF swingmill

Dan_Shade

Jim, If i'm not hunting for something, then I'm not doing anything  :D

it no fun doing a project if you can find all your tools in 10 minutes, and if it weren't for the miscellaneous stuff that I did find in my adventures, I'd never get inventory of what I do have!

Do you sort your logs by grade/diameter, Bibbyman? that could help you a little bit too
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

smwwoody

Bibby

If I remember right that terex has a bobcat tool bar on it doesn't it?  Would a grapple on it help with your sorting?

Woody
Full time Mill Manager
Cleereman head rig
Cooper Scragg
McDonugh gang saw
McDonugh edger
McDonugh resaw
TS end trim
Pendu slab recovery system
KJ4WXC

Bibbyman

My organization method is to leave my tools where I last used them.  Unless some one comes along and uses them or puts them away,  I can always (well, sometimes) remember where I used them last and go find them.

The majority of our logs are sorted by type and length.  And yes,  I pick out what I want to save back for grade and put them in a pile.   We don't get to buy grade logs but there are always a log or two in a bunch that will look to have some good grade in them. 

But we get overwhelmed at times and those times are becoming the norm, not the exception.

This week,  for example,  we got in several TT loads of walnut and soft maple to be grade sawn for a customer.  We also got in this little "wack" of cedar. 



Just about 450 logs – 8s, 10s, and some 12'.  All nice and plump and good solid red.  Logger says it's about half,  he'll bring the rest next week.  :-\

Mary and I worked about 10 hours in the past two days scaling, sorting and stacking these logs.  As we saw them,  we'll probably sort them again depending on what we are going to saw out of them.

There is one option that could have help our situation a lot but the opportunity has past.  That is to sale some of the logs.  Last winter we had a bad spell around the first of the year.  Local log inventories were low.   I could have probably sold a good bit of the rougher and older rough logs to sawmills trying to keep their RR tie and pallet lumber production going.  But... we were too busy to get that done and by late winter,  the weather conditions improved and the lots were full again.



Woody, Got a grapple,  it does not work as well as the forks.  I do put it on about once a month to clean up butted off ends or pull post or pick up big field stones or pull up heavy sprouts, etc.  But it's forks are too thick to slide under logs.  They are only about 30" long so would only pick up one or maybe two logs at a time.  The clamp closes too slow to be productive.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

smwwoody

Bibby

My next sugestion may not be much better but here goes...


some full time help

and if that don't work Eddie and I have alot of room in our log yard :D

Woody
Full time Mill Manager
Cleereman head rig
Cooper Scragg
McDonugh gang saw
McDonugh edger
McDonugh resaw
TS end trim
Pendu slab recovery system
KJ4WXC

Brucer

Hmm .. if a picture's worth a thousand words, than we've got a short story here ;D.

Bibbyman, I've been reading this over and looking at your pictures, and I don't think you have a log lot management problem. You've got a good plan for organizing your logs, you've got access to both sides of the bigger piles, you're making good use of existing roadways to get at logs, and you've got a good piece of equipment for handling them.

Nope, I figure what you've really got is an inventory problem -- too much of it. So instead of developing more land, or buying more equipment, or hiring more help, the real solution is to figure out how to reduce the amount of inventory on hand.

The kind of work you're doing demands a certain level of inventory to act as a buffer for unexpected demands. What is that level? How do you maintain it? How do you replace inventory after filling an order, without getting a bunch of logs that you don't need mixed in with the stuff you want? How do you turn away logs when you don't need them -- but still keep those loggers coming to you in the future? Those are the real issues.

Keep your log inventory down and the log lot management will take care of itself.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

J_T

I think he was refuring to a dangling grapple  ??? One like on a nukleboom loader. Good luck think I have wore the bark off some of mine :D :D
Jim Holloway

UNCLEBUCK

Bibbyman , I am curious to know when a private party brings logs to you say 2 dozen and leaves you and Mary a cut list , what is the time frame you tell them when they can come and get their lumber? Do you say check back in a week or a month ? Do private small customers want their logs sawn asap from you?
UNCLEBUCK    bridge burner/bridge mender

Bibbyman

Brucer, I think you've got a good grasp of our situation.  We have an imbalance in our incoming work load and out going production.  We want to remain a "Mom and Pop" mill operation but are busting at the seams.

Like I said,  we spent 10 hours in the past two days sorting logs.  We needed to do that but ...  That's 10 hours not sawing.

We're working on getting more buildings,  live deck and would like some other help like green chain, etc.   But it's hard to find the time to get this done when every hour or so there's another PU pulling up with someone wanting something.  Or,  you're sawing away and hear this "Bhaaaaa!, Bhaaaa!,  Bhaaaa!"  of yet another tractor trailer rig gearing down as it's coming in with a load of logs or to get lumber.  Or you come into the house and there are seven messages waiting.

UB,  Mary negotiates with each customer the time we'll get their sawing done.  We've got a couple of steady customers that we have committed to filling their orders within a couple of days.  We have a standing agreement on price and specs.  They just call and leave a message – "Mary,  we need so many of this and that." 

As for custom sawing,  we try to shoot for two weeks.  Sometimes the customer is in more of a hurry and depending on who it is and what the emergency is,  we try to help them out.   

Then we've got a lot of customers that are in no hurry.  This gets us into a bind because then we just keep putting it off and their couple of logs are always in the way. 

Then we've got a couple of stacks of logs on our lot that have been here more than two years.  They're not ready for the lumber!  One stack of about 50 cedar logs came from that a new house site of a neighbor's up the road.  They want it sawed to build their deck.  The house is built and they've moved in but they are not ready to build the deck.  Talk to them about a month ago and informed them that the cedar logs are sap rotten and if they wanted anything out of them,  they better get it sawn.  "Oh no,  they should still be good.  We're not ready yet. We'll let you know."

On the outgoing side,  we have the same problem.  We get it sawn and call the customer and then they don't come pick it up.  What makes Mary and I the maddest are the ones that make an appointment, at a time of their convenience, not ours, and then don't show up or even call to say they can't come.  Often they show up at some odd time unannounced. 

At this time we're in pretty good shape on out custom sawing orders.  We've got one of about 3,000 bf done and waiting to be picked up.  And a couple of one-two logs orders sawn and not picked up.  We've got logs for two other custom sawing jobs to get done – one with about a dozen small walnut logs and another with two big burr-oak logs.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

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