Question on water wells and pumps ...

[LOGDOG]

I thought surely someone out here in the Forum audience has experience with water wells and pumps so here's my question:

I've got a 380 foot deep fresh water well. It's a 4 inch well that up until recently I've had a 3 horsepower submersible pump set at about 300 feet deep pumping water into my pond. My pond is about 4 acres and varies from 10' to 30' in depth. The well pumped thousands and thousands of gallons of water and filled it to the top in the course of a year. Then my pump went out. I need to do something about it because we've had a drought here and my water level in the pond is going down. I had to hound the guy that drilled the well to even come out and diagnose the problem. He's kind of a jerk and literally stood me up half a dozen times before showing up 2 months after my first call. I'd like to find a better fix to my pump issue if one exists. He said he can pull the pipe and the pump up, replace the pump and reset it for $1,500.00. That's not super expensive. My thought though is that to come back with the same type of pump for the same heavy duty application is asking for another pump to burn out a year or two down the road.

   Does anyone have an idea for raising water from that depth that would be able to be accomplished by way of a pump that is not sumbersed. I think because of the diameter of 4" on the well casing that limits me to the size of submersible pump I'm able to use. Yet, raising the water from that depth seems to be a challenge. When we metered the water when the well was pumping we were getting about 57,000 gallons per day at roughly 40 gallons per minute.

   I'm thinking that there has to be some type of commercial pump available to accomplish the job that won't burn up under constant demands. At least if I could come up with a pump that was above ground it would be easier to service since I wouldn't have to pull the casing each time.

   All thoughts and ideas are welcome and appreciated. 

LOGDOG

[beenthere]

You could put a jack pump in, where the lift mechanism is on top and the water is 'jacked' up the pipe. They used to use those (remember being in the well pit many a times with that pump, a 5hp electric motor, and working around it) but have assumed the submersible's were better. Takes a rod to go to the bottom where the valves and piston are located. Wouldn't be so limited as to size, I wouldn't think, but may get less gallons per minute.
Similar to the oil well pump jacks seen around oil well country.

[Modat22]

I believe physics won't allow water to be pulled more then 32ft or something like that so you'll have to put a submerged pump back in its place.

If the pump was cycling often you may actually be better off installing a smaller pump that runs constantly or a bigger pump coupled to a larger storage tank that will allow the pump longer off times and on times.

Just my opinion.

[beenthere]

Modat
Just for clarity;
Our jack pump was in a 500' deep well. The valve/piston assembly is at the bottom, actuated by the pump jack rod. It had a stroke of about 12-18". They push the water up, so vacuum or suction doesn't enter into the equation.  The oil rigs are deeper and have a longer stroke.

[Ga_Boy]

LOGDOG,

I grew up helping my farther service well pumps.  I mentions this so you know that I do have a "little" experience in this area.

A sub-pump is the best for your application; you can push the water up with greater efficiency than you can pull it out.

With that said, use a Berkeley pump with a three wire Franklin motor.  The way to tell if it is a true three wire motor you will need a motor controller box to start the motor; this box will have a terminal strip and a capacitor.   If lighting is a problem in your area a lightening arrestor is not a bad idea.  Please know that the real purpose of the arrestor is to act a tattle-tell to let you know when lightening has hit; it will offer some protection but not much.  Lightening is just too powerful to stop completely without spending a lot of money.

The sub pump should fit nicely in the 4" well, the diameter of these pumps is 3".


Let me know if you have any specific questions.






Mark

[tcsmpsi]

Gotcha covered, my friend...

                                    ??? ??? ???



No need to thank me.  What are friends for?? 

[Tom]

believe it or not, we used to have the same thing as the workings of a pitcher pump hooked to a windmill and it watered the cows.   I wonder if one would lift 500 feet?  :D

[tcsmpsi]

believe it or not, we used to have the same thing as the workings of a pitcher pump hooked to a windmill and it watered the cows.   I wonder if one would lift 500 feet?  :D

Would be a long draw of water. 

I sure am glad we never had to hook a hose to one.   :D

[LOGDOG]

Thanks guys. Since posting I talked with a nice gal at this website: http://www.pumpsandtanks.com/submersible_pumps.htm

I've had my suspicions about what was actually put down in the well and "what I was told was put in the well". I think my suspicions were pretty much confirmed. Good news is that there are some fairly large submersible pumps available for 4" casings ...3" as well. I do have a three wire setup now. I'd actually like to get away from it. Every other guy that has come out here (electricians) look at the thing and scratch their heads. I found some good info on that site I mentioned as to how the three wire set-up works vs. the two wire.

It seems that a submersible assembly is the best option for drawing that water from that depth. Easier to push it than pull it I guess. One thing is for sure, this time I'll know what goes into the ground. It'll be right and the warranty will be in my name. Live and learn as they say.

Oh and TCSMPSI ....since we're such good friends ...if I install the pump you recommended, will you come run it until I get the new one in place? :D 8) ;) I'll be needing about 40 gpm. ;)

Keep the feedback coming ...

LOGDOG

[Modat22]

Beenthere, I wasn't refering to pump jacks sorry bout that. AS long at the pump part is in the water it will pump.

I was just saying a pump can't suck the water past 32 feet or something like that.

[tcsmpsi]

Oh and TCSMPSI ....since we're such good friends ...if I install the pump you recommended, will you come run it until I get the new one in place? :D 8) ;) I'll be needing about 40 gpm. ;)


LOGDOG

40 gpm?  I can't even shed water that fast.   Uh...I'll have to check, but I think my LA passport has expired.   :-[

[jack]

Logdog,
Have you looked into the SOLAR DC pumps.?  We are running one in conjunction with a windmill.  lots of water,  gets water even on slightly overcast days,  if there is no sun then the wind is picking up the slack.

Go Google you can find lots of smarties that can answer your questions..And there are lots of equipment out there for sale.

Windmills can pull the water from DEEP DEEP,  knows of mills pulling water over 700foot.  you can also pressurize the water too.   With the windmill.
take care,
Jack

[speedbump]

I would stick with the submersible.  It's going to do the best job.  Stick with the Franklin motor for now.  There is a big shakeup going on with the big guys who own most of the pump companies these days (ITT and Pentair). They are building a new motor and in the meantime are scrambling to get Italian motors out there until their new on hits the streets and they can keep up with production.  I have had a bunch of failures because of this and will only accept Franklin from now on.

bob...

[Tom]

Wecome to the Forestry Forum, Speedbump.

[LOGDOG]

Welcome aboard Speedbump. Thanks for your help today on the phone. 

LOGDOG

[Corley5]

I'm not sure how it works but I've heard of using compressed air to get water out of a well.  Some of the Amish do it and that's how they get around using electric submersible pumps.  Instead they use a gas engine to run an air compressor and pressurize the well casing which forces water up the water line ???  Or something along that line ;)

[LOGDOG]

Yep Corley, believe it or not we tried that initially. It might work on a shallow well but it was a fiasco with mine being as deep as it is. I was willing to try it though. After I spent $2000.00 on the diesel fuel for the compressor only to find myself with a little mud puddle on one end of the pond I ended up biting the bullet to run a mile of power line into my place and put the electric submersible pump in. It immediately gave us way more than the air. Really, had the pump lasted and not burned up I'd be fine with it's performance.

That raises another question. Is it just the motor that failed? The pump? Or both? On pricing pumps, it's evident that there's no way this well driller can pull my casing, replace my "3 h.p. pump" and reset it for $1,500.00. He's cutting corners on something. Before it's over I'll know what it is too.  ;D

Anyone check out that website on pumps yet? I see they've got some really stout pumps that will go in a 4 inch casing. I figure that pump is going to need to work hard for a long time so I may as well do it right. I had purposely waited to stock the pond to make sure we had the kinks worked out. I'll use the draw down on the pond to put some pilings in for a dock and boathouse. I've got some nice Cypress on my place that should do the trick for that project.  Good stuff guys. Keep it comin'

LOGDOG

[JimBuis]

Logdog,
This is somewhat of a shift in your topic.  If you are using the well mostly for keeping your pond healthy and full, why do you need a deep well. A shallow well would serve the purpose and make it a whole lot easier to pump it.  Have you ever checked into driving your own well point? Being in Louisiana, your water table ought to be rather close to the surface.

Just curious,
Jim

[Don P]

Those center pivot irrigation wells in Nebraska are about 600' deep and have a small motor at the wellhead running it (well a small block anyway  :D) Not sure what the pump setup is but it must be from the surface.
Tom, growing up one of my "yards" was a couple that had a pitcher pump on a 300' well out back. You had to start stroking well before you were thirsty. There were simply many rods, seals and leathers as the water climbed up step by step.
My own rule of thumb, if its over 27' deep keep your jaw back from the handle... or so I've been told  :.

[beenthere]

.......That raises another question. Is it just the motor that failed? The pump? Or both? On pricing pumps, it's evident that there's no way this well driller can pull my casing, replace my "3 h.p. pump" and reset it for $1,500.00. He's cutting corners on something. Before it's over I'll know what it is too.  ;D
......

Don't think they will pull out the casing.
But they will pull the pipe the pump is hanging on that is inside the casing.
Good luck.

[Furby]

My question is what is the pipe made of?
Some drillers use black poly pipe and you can pull that yourself. ;)

[scsmith42]

Logdog, I think that $1,500 is a reasonable price to replace a submersible pump 300' deep.  As Beenthere mentioned, you do not need to pull the casing - only the pipe, electrical wiring and pump.  I think that you should plan on replacing the wiring along with the pump, as often times the wire will rub against the casing and wear through the insulation.  Most of the wells that I'm familiar with use the black poly pipe, which is fairly easy to pull.

A quality, deep well submersible pump should last you quite a while.  What part of Louisiana are you in?  Any chance for a shallower pump location?  This would either save you $ on electricity or allow you to increase your GPM.

Jack - where can we get more info about the solar DC / windmill pumps that you're referencing?  I'm familiar with the old style Aermotor windmills, but these don't pressurize water- only bring it to the surface (or an elevated tank).  I've been thinking about doing an elevated water tank on the farm fed by a windmill, but your solar DC pump idea sounds interesting. 

Scott

[highpockets]

Hi Logdog, I' about 42 miles south of you in Pleasant Hill (Sabine Parish).  I think you are doing right by going back with the sub pump.  There is a place off North Market (Wholesale Pump and Supply that used to sell all kinds of pumps.  I used to have an account with them years ago.  I think they have kind of tightened up on who they to sell to protect the well drillers. 

As for air lifting water, it is not a problem if the conditions are right. I have done a lot of it down to 4,500 feet or so.  Problem is the cost is prohibitive.  I did a lot of air drilling in Saudi Arabia but we had 2400 c.f.m.   If you get the ratio of injection tubing to your lift tubing right it works pretty well. Some folks around here use it to aeriate the water to knock out the iron. 

What happened at the ammunition plant? 

   

[LOGDOG]

Wow ...lots of replies this morning. That's great. Let's see ....where to start?

JimBuis ... you know I thought the water table would be high myself. Afterall, I went over my entire 62 acres on Google Earth's aerial map and checked elevation. I've got a mile of river frontage that runs through my place and from the bottom of the river bed to the top of the hill that my well is situated on we're only talking about 30' or so of elevation difference. We had dug a test hole with a track hoe in the bottom about 1000' from the river. We hit water about 4 feet down. It was literally gushing into the hole. So yes, I thought we could get sufficient water up higher myself. Maybe they did hit water sooner when drilling? Maybe they didn't figure I'd have enough flow? Maybe they screwed me? Could be any one of the scenarios. :

Beenthere ...you're right I mis-spoke. They won't pull the casing only the pipe inside the casing connected to the pump and motor.


Furby ...my pipe is steel and not the poly. So 300' of it is likely to way a good amount. I do have my big forklift though. I had thought about possibly straddling the well since it's in the open and trying to use my forklift to help raise the pipe. The only thing that bothers me is what happens if we lose our grip after we have half the sections off and the pipe somehow drops back down the hole. I'm thinking I'd be S.O.L. if that happened. Any ideas?

Scott ... you're right $1,500.00 isn't much to fix it. In fact, it's like it's too cheap to be doing it right if you know what I mean. It does become too much if I have to do this every other year though. Rather go heavy duty this time, make sure it's right and not have to deal with this clown well driller more than absolutely necessary. Good idea on replacing the wiring while I'm at it. I'm right by Shreveport, LA (NW Corner of the state). Not sure about shallower opportunites for water. We've got a great hole in the ground as it stands. The water is super clear and cold when it comes up from that deep. It's also been able to handle the large volume of water we need too. I think what I need to do is find out what the static water level is first and see if that affords a shallower opportunity for pumping water. You asked about DC/Windmill pumps. Check out the link to the pump website I posted earlier in this thread. Talk to Bob or Barbara there if you call. Seem like really knowledgeable, polite folks.

Hello Highpockets. When are we going to get some more water in Toledo Bend? My wife and I just came into 11 acres on the lake down there but with the water as low as it is I'm not super excited. Believe it or not, I think I spoke to those folks up on North Market. Kind of abrupt.  : As to air lifting ...sounds like you were on a crew that probably had a professional setup. Everything works better if you can tool up for it properly. On mine when we were using air, it looked like a volcano spurting and sputtering water irregularly as opposed to a steady flow. As far as the ammunition plant goes, do you mean the explosions? My wife and I were home that day. We live about 10 minutes from the plant. All at once I heard this BOOM and the house shook. I thought, "What in the world?!?" Looked outside and saw nothing. Then shortly after, another big BOOM!!! Later that night I caught the tail end of the story on the news. I'm glad we were this far away. Hey, maybe we can hook up sometime and catch some white bass down in Logansport? Say like February or March? ;D Love those white bass!!!

LOGDOG

[speedbump]

Thanks for the welcome guys.

Drillers with rotary rigs use air to pump the well off when they are done and to see how much it will produce.  I'm not sure how you could use this method to pressure up a tank, but it would work for filling a pond.  Now the size of the compressor and the motor to drive this monster might be an other issue in itself.

If this guy is going to replace a HP pump and motor for $1500.00, he certainly won't be looking for an early retirement.

bob...