White pine vs Hemlock

[raycon]

 At lunch I was offered 30 white pine logs and an additional 30 or so Hemlocks.
 The local timberframers I know all pass on the white pine and go for the hemlock. What is the basis behind this? I think I know a few reasons why I'm just curious as to what some more of the deciding factors are when choosing between the two materials.

[Greg]

At lunch I was offered 30 white pine logs and an additional 30 or so Hemlocks.
 The local timberframers I know all pass on the white pine and go for the hemlock. What is the basis behind this? I think I know a few reasons why I'm just curious as to what some more of the deciding factors are when choosing between the two materials.

Interesting...

Nothing at all wrong with white pine in my book, assuming its of proper grade. It is very dimensionally stable as it dries, which is a huge plus for a small one man operation (like me).

As long as the frame as engineered for white pine, of course.

I suspect the hemlock is preferred because its almost certainly a "stronger" wood species, from an engineering standpoint. White pine is one the weakest across all categories for any softwood or hardwood. Anyone have a handy link to engineering properties across species?

Tell your buddy he can send all his white pine logs to me here in Ohio ;-)

See ya,
Greg

[Tom]

All kinds of engineering stuff in the wood handbook.  Links are everywhere on the forum but one I know of is in the Knowledge Base under "Wood and Lumber".

[jeepman]

In my opinion, its a matter of opinion.I'm currently using hemlock because it's stronger, I prefer the appearance, and there is no messy pitch. However, all of my t&g will be white pine. The pine helps to brighten a room and its easier to set the pitch in 8/4 than 8X12. Also the hemlocks on my property are on average larger than my pines. Just my $0.02 hope it helps.

[SwampDonkey]

Both are quite decay resistant. I know a large tract of forest that burnt containing white pine, and this happened over 60 years ago. The white pine that were killed are still standing and some white pine weren't killed. There is now a whole new forest of spruce and fir grown up there. Hemlock is probably more decay resilient because of its wood extractives that keep the nasties away. I was on a woodlot saturday that had hemlock along the perimeter of a lowland cedar swamp, not in the swamp though. Too wet for hemi's. Only thing about eastern hemlock up this way is that it is full of ring check caused by the sap suckers.   : Btw, they use red pine (harder wood) logs here instead of white pine or they get spruce. In my particular location we have white pine but it is very scattered and pure stands are hard to come across. Further south of me and to the east there are some nice stands of it. And I dunno why, but natural red pine stands are found on soils high in iron (red clay loams) up here, and that's not the situation in Carleton County. Our soils are sandy clay or silty clay loams high in limestone.  Sorry for gettin too deep. ;)

cheers

[raycon]

Thanks for the replies. The engineering handbook/physical property stuff I get/understand --its the intangible stuff.. or knowledge acquired from cutting frames from both materials with hand tools...and deciding to use hemlock over pine. The local framers that build some of the most appealing/classic frames seem to be the one that never opened the books -- they  got there starts/experience over twenty years taking frames down and putting them back up. Asking them to explain why choose one over the  other  (material) is like talking chevy vs ford  at times.
 In my area there are plenty more hemlocks than pines that can produce a 8"x12" x 24' tie beam of good quality and it just might be the reason why its the material of choice.  (What jeepman said)

[hookhill]

I gave up on white pine for anything structural. To many boards that dropped on the ground and broke kind of spoke of its strength. Hemlock is like iron.

[Jim Haslip]

In Chappel's book "A Timber Framer's Workshop" he mentions that Hemlock was traditionally used in Barns because horses wouldn't chew on the wood.

[Vermonter]

Hemlock is much more durable than EWP.  If kept wet, it will last pretty much forever.  I've dug up 200 year old pump logs (early water pipe) that were still solid, and you could still tell they were hemlock.   I think I know of a barn that used it in the stable, as it won't rot when in contact with manure.  The last Sawmill and Woodlot mag had a section on Hemlock, it takes so long to grow that the economic payback isn't there.  The ring shake is rough too, although it is easy to spot on the end of the log.  Often only the butt log has it, and I have to be careful of pieces letting go when I saw it, cause I wouldn't let it go to waste.  Makes good subfloors and sheathing, and framing, just don't let the moisture content get too low or you'll never get a nail through it.  If you use galvanized nails and green lumber, learn how to use a sawzall to get it apart, I bet you could break a hammer trying to pull those nails.
I'm a hemlock fan, I cut up a couple of hundred feet the other morning before work, and traded it to a gal for a truck cap on the toyo.  Good trade, she's using it for raised beds in her garden.

[mark davidson]

hemlock is good framing wood, but the cull rate can kill you. I'd say around 15%.
shake is the main problem but unseen rot will be there too. I tolerate a bit of shake in posts, but none in beams.

In the old barns around my area, the white pine looks better than the hemlock. the hemlock has checked a lot over the years and typically has more structural problems. The old white pine timbers just seem to get better with age. Problem with this line of reasoning is that there is very little old white pine left. The second growth is not the same wood, the rings are much wider.
So, given the choice between pine and hemlock nowadays, I'd say go for both. Try to get good quality hemlock for beams,where strength is needed and use pine for the posts, where there is more joinery to cut.
$.02