what wood does

[kderby]

Hi gang,

I am mostly at the "sawmills and milling" board but this group might have a thoughtful answer.

How do we deal with the fact that wood twists, cracks, has wane and knots?  I have a customer now that got corral lumber.  He is concerned about the bark on some of the boards.  I sent enough volume along in the form of added lumber to cover any bark he has found.  Still he does not want to pay for any "barky" board.  Thus he will ge the added lumber I sent for free?  This is a cow corral not the Taj Mahal.  The customer is always right.  Do you sense my confusion? 

You deal with larger material (timbers) and customers that want the look of a log but not the look of a log?  You have all seen barky and waney pieces used in buildings that had full strength but were not as pretty as the others.  How do you work with customers that see a timber with a crack or that it is not "FOHC." You place the crown up.  When does "crown" become "bowed"? The customer wonders if an evident imperfection will spell doom to the project?  What position do you take?  Do you feel guilty when you use an ugly timber? 

It's back to school for KDerby :P :P :P ;D

[Tom]

KDerby,
You're talking to a lot of same people here that you do in Sawmilling.  We all move around this forum like a gadfly at a cocktail party.  It's all really one forum anyway.  :D

I'll tell you what I would do.  I would say. "what do You  think it is worth?"   "Write me a check"

Then I wouldn't saw for him anymore.   That's a big period for emphasis.  :D :D

He's buying rough cut not finished.  He's bying from a sawmill not Home Despot.  If he wants it waxed, he can take it to a detailer.

If he still wanted to show his lip, I would take the rejected boards back home with me.

If he still wanted to show his lip, I would give him his check back and take all the boards back home with me.

Don't get into a shouting match, just let him make the statements that direct the action.  If he is unhappy with something, don't "make" him buy it. That doesn't mean that you have to replace it unless you want to.  You don't have to sell him anything.  Perhaps he hasn't figured that out  yet.     

[wiam]

What Tom said  ;)

Will

[Don P]

Well, If I fail to adequately explain something to a customer, it gets harder to explain it to their lawyer. Every step from there makes explaining harder. People don't like suprises, if they are fully educated up front there shouldn't be any problems. As the person providing the service, this falls on you.
I try to interview my clients, I'm not above being too busy if it doesn't feel good. If something I do doesn't mesh with what they are thinking I need to clear it up fast.

I guess that's what's rolling through my head before the first client meeting  :

For the rest of the job once the wood is there you just have to do the best you can. That said, I rejected 2 large timbers last week. The supplier was good enough to deliver and swap out. I hadn't cut or damaged the timbers. They did not make the specifications called for in the prints. There was a clear understanding of what was and was not acceptable. The swap provided the product agreed upon, I was not due the rejected timbers.

Good specifications we could both amicably refer to allowed a fast and fair solution.

Where I always get stuck is in the miles of unforseen grey area. No matter what, you can't forsee and specify everything. To me a contract is an attitude of co-operation between 2 parties. If that spirit doesn't exist, no amount of legaleese is going to make it work. That's when in retrospect I have to admit that I didn't properly screen my clients.

[Jim_Rogers]

As mentioned, set up some ground rules.
Ask the customer, "can you stand a little wane?"
If he's says "no," then don't ship any.
Explain what wane is to him if he doesn't know.
Then ask again.
In some areas wane will attract bugs and he may not want any bugs in his new fence.
Take a draw knife to the bark and remove it, so it's not as noticeable or don't ship any with bark on it.

I usually conclude any sale with the sentence: "if you have any problems with any of this....
I'll replace it....."

Do whatever it take to keep him satisfied as he is the customer who is paying you.
Sure it's just a cow coral, but it's his cow coral and he wants it his way and that's what you should try to provide.

If he's to unreasonable to work with, as mentioned stop selling him lumber.

We've all had to "fire" a customer now and again......

Jim Rogers

[getoverit]

I have been known to throw in a few extra boards with an order of around 800+bf just to keep them happy. I delivered 1000bf of 2x6's the other day to a guy building a horse barn and threw in 3 extra 12 foot 2x6's for free.

It really didnt cost me that much to include them, but I'm sure he will be happy with the lumber I sold him. I told him up front that the extras were to replace anything he didnt like in the load I sold him.

After we unloaded the load of lumber by hand and he had taken a good look at all of the lumber, he was smiling from ear to ear about it. He even made a comment that it was straighter, had less knots, and not much wane. He wasnt expecting that when he made the order.

One customer I have brings me logs to saw and then picks up the lumber later. He is also picky about wane and doesnt want ANY in his lumber. The way I handle this customer is that any boards that come off of the mill that are too good to go to the slab pile, but have a little wane in them, I just keep them and dont charge him for them. I will either sell them later to someone else, or use them myself later. He is aware that I am doing this and is happy with the arrangement. Nothing lost either way on my end and I have a happy customer too..

[kderby]

I would like to report on the outcome of this event...

I sent the customer 1700 board feet of corral lumber.  He ordered 1500.  I  sent the extra as there was wane and other defect on some pieces.  I do not want to short a customer.  He ordered 2x6 sixteen feet and did not want "too many eight footers."  Some of the over run was in the form of a 2x12x16' that was sound.  There was a six foot 2x6 board in the pile as well.

After several phone calls and a trip to re-tally he still feels shorted but he won't say by how much.  He wants to deduct from the 1500 board feet the 2x12, the six footer and any board with wane.  I asked if he was able to complete the project? (Yes) I asked if there was more than 200 board feet of marginal ("crap") material set aside...he did not answer.  He just started to talk about not paying for the six footer.  He had cut up several of the sixteen footers into four footers for a curved section of the corral. perhaps he could have used the six footer there?

End of story is that he said they will send a check for the invoiced amount.  He said, "I will know better next time".  Then he hung up.

I am disappointed.  I feel I worked sincerely to exceed the terms of our agreement.  He never did say how much he felt shorted by.  I offered repeatedly to discount the invoice if he would give me a solid indication of the "short" amount.  I am also certain that "I will know better next time" as well.  Perhaps not a next time with him >:(. 

I will continue to add extra and work to communicate with the customer regarding "What wood does".

Thanks All

Kendall : :

[scsmith42]

Kendall, I have found that there are some people in this world that are hung up expecting that they are going to get taken advantage of somehow, and they become obsessed with making this a self fulfilling prophesy.  I call these folks "people that would gripe about not having anythign to gripe about".

It sounds like you did what you could, and did the right thing by the customer.  I would not lose any sleep over it.

Regards,

Scott

[Tom]

There are some people who would complain if you hung them with a rotten rope. 

There is something that you might try that might turn this into a positive advertisement next time.  Not to say you didn't but Put it on the bill.

If you list the items on the bill and total them as the 1500 feet he wanted along with the total cost, then below, list the Freebies and their board footage and a note that says No Charge.  He will have been told in writing that you felt that you did him a favor.

He may have thought that your freebies were part of the 1500 he was paying for.  Some people can't be made to understand no matter how hard you try.  Many of these wouldn't whimper or question you if you were to return their check.

That's the good thing about working for one's self.  You get to make the decision to "not go back".

[Don P]

 :D "Some people would b if you hung em with a new rope" is what I was thinking as I read what you had gone through.

I felt kinda bad about being hard before, I've run into his kind.

Now is the part I have a hard time with,
" Life will keep presenting the lesson till you have learned it"

It's a bummer when I realize I'm in remedial life training again :D