Help Marking level lines on trees

[joejkd]

I'm having trouble getting level cuts when plunging in to large diameter trees (In RI, so anything greater than 2' DBH). I plunge in one side right behind the hinge, walk the saw around, and by the time I get to the other side (tapping in wedges as I go), I'm below the notch  :-[  I must have the saw rocked up or down when I plunge in.

I've had to re-cut 2 of these so far with this method. Seems like I don't have this problem if I start my bore on the left side, but that's not always an option depending on side lean. Not sure why that would be. Luckily they were both back-leaners, so the tree was in no rush to leave the stump at that point, but that could've been real ugly.

Any way, I came up with the bright idea that I'd practice on some stumps and small diameter stuff by marking a nice level chalk line around the tree to help me get the feel of what level should be and give me some added insurance dropping larger trees.

Anyone have any tricks on how to do this? I've tried tying a running knot around the trunk and pulling the rope taught, but it's hard to get a nice level line all the way around that way seeing as the rope isn't rigid.

[Ianab]

Don't be afraid to draw your plan out on the tree first. A crayon, chalk line, or even scratching a line in the bark.

Just something to give you a line to follow as you cut. Once you get the hang of it you will be able yo follow an imaginary line OK, but to get the hang of it, scratch a line in the bark to cut along.

Ian

[woodtick#2]

Having the same problem, I have found that with my Husqvarna 372xp with a 20 inch bar when you hold the saw sideways by the side handle bar the saw will balance its self and level out

[BBK]

I am glad I'm not the only one who has had that problem. :( For some of the tulip poplar and oak we cut, diameters of 36" to 42" is pretty common and getting a level cut is a priority.  With my 660, up to the 28" bar, the saw ballances pretty well and its relatively easy to find "level". With the 36" and 42" its nose heavy. I usually draw a line in the bark with the saw from the far side to where i can start the cut. Its quick and easy to do and this gives a pretty good line to follow also.

[joejkd]

Don't be afraid to draw your plan out on the tree first. A crayon, chalk line, or even scratching a line in the bark.

Just something to give you a line to follow as you cut. Once you get the hang of it you will be able yo follow an imaginary line OK, but to get the hang of it, scratch a line in the bark to cut along.

Ian

That's what I'm trying to do, but I'm having trouble getting the line I scribe on the tree to be level.

I am glad I'm not the only one who has had that problem. :( For some of the tulip poplar and oak we cut, diameters of 36" to 42" is pretty common and getting a level cut is a priority.  With my 660, up to the 28" bar, the saw ballances pretty well and its relatively easy to find "level". With the 36" and 42" its nose heavy. I usually draw a line in the bark with the saw from the far side to where i can start the cut. Its quick and easy to do and this gives a pretty good line to follow also.

How do you keep it level when you plunge it in? I even went as far to try a magnetic level on my bar, but with vibration and all you need to take it off before you start the cut and by the time you do that.....well, you get the idea.

I find the tendency is for the nose to dip on the plunge (meaning you'll be lower on the other side when you get there, or not matched if you plunge from the other side as opposed to walking the saw around), so I've gotten better with erring on the side of having the powerhead lower since I know I'm above notch on the first side I plunge.

[beenthere]

Just takes practice, IMO. For a mark on the bark, you can use the chain on the bar to make a line around the tree. Then work off that scratched line.

For 'level', that just takes getting used to the saw, and you being aware of where the tip of your bar is at all times (again, practice, practice, practice.....).  A bit like throwing a ball to someone and getting it at least close for them to catch. A developed skill, that some have naturally IMO and others are just a long way off and need to learn it.

For making the line, after taking out the wedge I reach or go around the tree to where I can see the height of the hinge, then drag the saw around to the other end of the hinge. Can stand back and see if the line scratched out is level or needs adjustment.

Normally I plunge from the same side of the tree where I stand to cut the wedge out. Then when plunging, I can sight along the hinge at the tip of the wedge and see how level the bar is at that time.
Easier done than explained.

But sounds like you are well aware of the problem, which is most of the battle.

[MJD]

I always plunged from both sides and cut to the back , that way I was able to have the wood at the notch I wanted on both sides, a little more here or there to pull the tree if needed.

[Maine372]

i also bore from both sides, somtimes using only 2/3ds of the bar so theres not too much overlap. i start about an inch above the notch corner and purposely angle the bar tip down just a hair. this way the two bore cuts cross so there is no wood that doesnt get cut, and it leaves a nice clean end on the log with no splits or fiber pull. in maine i tend to one need to do this on large white pines where the appearance of the log can help boost the grade. should work on your hardwoods as well.

[joejkd]

i also bore from both sides, somtimes using only 2/3ds of the bar so theres not too much overlap. i start about an inch above the notch corner and purposely angle the bar tip down just a hair. this way the two bore cuts cross so there is no wood that doesnt get cut, and it leaves a nice clean end on the log with no splits or fiber pull. in maine i tend to one need to do this on large white pines where the appearance of the log can help boost the grade. should work on your hardwoods as well.

I'd like to do this, but I'm not confident I could get the two cuts to meet and on a big back leaner which I would think would be an issue when you get to the holding strap on the back. If the two cuts weren't level with each other when you started, you're going to end up with a funky holding tab, and wedging I imagine would be quite a pain at that point since I imagine you wouldn't be able to get them to "help each other out" (i.e. tapping alternating wedges to make the process easier.)

Do you ever find this happening to you, or is it not really a big deal if they don't meet up?

[MJD]

IMHO if the back cuts dont meet perfect owell, I want my notch and holding wood right. If your getting angled cuts maybe you need to flatten your bar rails, you will have a hard time getting cuts lined up if your rails are worn. When cutting from both sides get a wedge in after one side is cut and if you think it may set back get another in before you finish your second cut.

[Maine372]

my bad side i bore first, cut straight out the back side and put in a wedge. then bore my good side, leave my holding strap on the back, insert wedge ahead of the holding strap. give it a couple taps, then cut underneath the holding strap.

start with the wedge on the bad side. it should be further from the hinge and have greater mechanical advantage. if the first wedge doesnt push it over the second one is closer to the hinge and can help give it that last little bump to push it over. once the tree is on the ground all i have to do is zip off that little tab left from my holding wood.

clear as mud? its easier when i can draw pictures.

[Maine372]

just been re-reading and want to add some comments.

since the two cuts slope downward toward the center of the tree they cross. you will actually feel when the second cut breaks through the first cut.

bad side =the side it leans too, good side = side away from the lean

my first wedge i put in from the back of the tree in the bad side cut. this way im supporting the weght of the bad side. my second wedge goes about halfway between the hinge and the holding wood. rather than helping each other out the way you describe, i kinda wedge in two stages. one wedge gets the tree stood up, the other pushes it over. there is still plenty of space to drive multiple wedges if the need arrises.

[joejkd]

my bad side i bore first, cut straight out the back side and put in a wedge. then bore my good side, leave my holding strap on the back, insert wedge ahead of the holding strap. give it a couple taps, then cut underneath the holding strap.

start with the wedge on the bad side. it should be further from the hinge and have greater mechanical advantage. if the first wedge doesnt push it over the second one is closer to the hinge and can help give it that last little bump to push it over. once the tree is on the ground all i have to do is zip off that little tab left from my holding wood.

clear as mud? its easier when i can draw pictures.

Do you ever have trouble getting larger trees to seperate doing this? Cutting underneath the holding strap means your wedges need to sever that wood before they can even begin to lift the tree. I had a 38" pine snag I cut three weeks back that was very difficult to drive wedges in. I ended up shortening the hinge (I know it's supposed to be 10% DBH but 3.5" is a big hinge, I cut it down to 2"). Only then was I able to get the sucker to start coming over.  So I need to ask, do you leave a thinner hinge than 10% when you do this?

Also, what do you do when that wedge you leave in the bad side just won't drive due to insufficent leverage?

Don't mean to be so picky but I'm planning on dropping a 80-90' pine at my mother in law's, in range of some structures. I suspect it's about 20-24" DBH (I have an 18" saw), though I haven't measured it yet. I've got a 60-70 degree arc that I can safely land the thing in, so it's not what you would call tight, but it does call for some extra caution. I definitely don't want this one twisting or setting back on me. I will have a throw line secure with a 3-1 block and tackle headed off by a come along winch just for safety, but I want to make sure my cuts are perfect and my wedges are right. There is not significant back lean, so I shouldn't need the winch, but you never know....

Maine, I think I will try this double bore method angling the cuts slightly down. I've heard of it before, but I thought it'd be a lot harder than what I was doing before. The way you describe it, it seems like it'd be easier with the added bonus of no surprises when you get to the other side.

[lonewolf]

Was wondering if you just cut a block off a log is your cut straight?I have ran Stihl,Dolmar,Husky and Jonsred saws and all seemed to balance well with 20 in. Bars if your angles are off slightly when you file your saw it will cause you to cut crooked. Flip your saw over and cut a tree if it cuts opposite check your angles. Hope this helps and not confuses.

[duckslayingpro]

Your 10% of your dbh is a maximum of your hinge. you do not want your hinge to be wider than the 10%. But you do want to leave enough to where it wont break the hinge off and fall backwards. good luck to you. you sound like you are on the right track. i am with the other guys though as long as your bore cuts overlap and are not way out of whack the tree will just snap that verticle wood.

[sjfarkas]

You said the tree was at your mother in laws, there are 2 ways to look at it.  First if you screw up and she's not in house then she'll probably live with you until her house is fixed. Second if you screw up and she's in the house, you'll be the busiest tree man in the country. :D maybe a little laser level that puts a line out would work.  Anylize every cut and you'll get better.

[smwwoody]

use the felling sights on the saw that is what they are there for

[joejkd]

use the felling sights on the saw that is what they are there for

I got that part nailed down. Like I said I have 60-70 degrees to play with, so my main concern is incorrect back-cuts/hingewood causing the tree to set back or twist and roll from snapping hingewood too early.

Was wondering if you just cut a block off a log is your cut straight?I have ran Stihl,Dolmar,Husky and Jonsred saws and all seemed to balance well with 20 in. Bars if your angles are off slightly when you file your saw it will cause you to cut crooked. Flip your saw over and cut a tree if it cuts opposite check your angles. Hope this helps and not confuses.

I had a brand new chain on when I cut my last one. It only happens to me when I start with the left side, so it's got to be the way I'm holding the saw on the plunge.

Your 10% of your dbh is a maximum of your hinge. you do not want your hinge to be wider than the 10%. But you do want to leave enough to where it wont break the hinge off and fall backwards. good luck to you. you sound like you are on the right track. i am with the other guys though as long as your bore cuts overlap and are not way out of whack the tree will just snap that verticle wood.

What's the minimum? I guess I'm trying to ask the proper hinge length on a 24" tree with slight back lean and sound holding wood. 10% seems to be too much for wedging, and I don't like sawing near the hinge on a tree wider than bar length when I have wedges set and back cut finished already, since the tree could start going before I have a chance to even it out on the other side of the hinge.

just been re-reading and want to add some comments.

since the two cuts slope downward toward the center of the tree they cross. you will actually feel when the second cut breaks through the first cut.

bad side =the side it leans too, good side = side away from the lean

my first wedge i put in from the back of the tree in the bad side cut. this way im supporting the weght of the bad side. my second wedge goes about halfway between the hinge and the holding wood. rather than helping each other out the way you describe, i kinda wedge in two stages. one wedge gets the tree stood up, the other pushes it over. there is still plenty of space to drive multiple wedges if the need arrises.

About how many degrees do you tip the nose? Do you mark the tree on either side of your plunge to get them as close to the same level as possible?

[beenthere]

joekd
You have asked enough questions that expose some basic mis-understandings (IMO) of what the hinge is doing, and when/where to place your cuts that I'd strongly suggest you don't tackle this back-leaning tree without either 1) more training and/or experience using the saw to fall a tree, or 2) roping the tree to pull it down in the direction where and when you want it to fall, or 3) hiring a professional.

A proper hinge in solid wood will keep the tree from twisting or rolling and snapping off too early. That is true for solid wood, not the chance that the hingewood is comprimised by decay or the like. Shouldn't need to be sawing on a hinge after the wedges are set and the backcut is finished.

The mechanics of holding the saw so it will plunge where you need it to saw is a skill.....like swinging a hammer to hit a nail.

[Autocar]

Listen to Beenthere it's better to walk away from it, then getting yourself hurt. To cut level it just takes practice , practice , practice. Just becareful learning  ;)

[joejkd]

joekd
You have asked enough questions that expose some basic mis-understandings (IMO) of what the hinge is doing, and when/where to place your cuts that I'd strongly suggest you don't tackle this back-leaning tree without either 1) more training and/or experience using the saw to fall a tree, or 2) roping the tree to pull it down in the direction where and when you want it to fall, or 3) hiring a professional.

A proper hinge in solid wood will keep the tree from twisting or rolling and snapping off too early. That is true for solid wood, not the chance that the hingewood is comprimised by decay or the like. Shouldn't need to be sawing on a hinge after the wedges are set and the backcut is finished.

The mechanics of holding the saw so it will plunge where you need it to saw is a skill.....like swinging a hammer to hit a nail.

I think maybe you misunderstood what I was saying.

If the hinge is too thick, it will resist the leverage of the wedge. That holding wood must be "bent" by the wedge to push the tree up. If the wood is too thick, the wedge cannot produce enough force to move the tree.

Think of it in extremes and it makes more sense. If you left a 6" "hinge" in a 24" tree and started wacking wedges in, I'm sure we'd all agree that sucker ain't moving.

What about 5"? 4"? 3"? As you can see, there is a line where you have enough holding wood to guide the tree balanced with the resistance that holding wood is going to give against your attempts at wedging.

I'm not trying to disregard your advice I really appreciate the discussion, but I do have a good understanding of what a hinge does. I recognize that there is a "maximum" hinge thickness for a reason. If the tree is backleaning its too tough to tip/pull, and if it's headleaning you run the risk of slabbing/barber chair.

I always thought 10% was the magic number, but felling some really large pine tested that theory, as 10% was too thick to wedge over (38" DBH tree). Only after cutting the hinge down an inch either side did the wedges start sliding in. The tree ended up falling right on target. I don't want to end up in this situation again (trying to learn from my mistake) as I don't like the idea of playing with the hinge thickness when everything else is set up.

Now I'm being told 10% is the maximum hinge length, so I'm simply asking if there's a maximum, there must be a minimum or something you more experienced guys look at to say "this one i'll do 5%" and so on.

This particular tree has no NOTICABLE back lean, but we all know no tree is perfectly straight, so I'm preparing to deal with a back lean in case.

I already plan on having a pull rope established with a come-along as I never mess around when it comes to saftey.

[beenthere]

joekid

You continue with the arguement..... The proper hinge at 10% dbh WILL bend 'no-problem' using the wedges, and certainly the wedges' task of raising that leaning side of the tree will be made NO EASIER by reducing the thickness of the hinge. Please give this some more thought, as you are fighting against the right way to cut down a tree. Leave the hinge alone once it is the correct size.
No more discussion about it from me.

[joejkd]

Ok, so you're saying there must've been something else wrong with that cut. No argument here. 10% it is.

[Ed_K]

When you start bore cutting you may find the chips are dark,then 10% may not be enough.As far as wedges not moving once the back cut is done,you need a heavier axe or sledge.I did a 32" w/pine and ended up with a 7" hinge.
I encourage choppers to bore in vertical close to the roots to see whats inside.If you start in and the saw slides right in,call a bucket truck.
A 1"wedge will tip a 70' tree 6'.I've doubled wedges on both sides to keep it solid then cut the back strap a put in 2 12"wedges to bring it up and over and use the sides to keep it straight.

[smwwoody]

you dont have the felling sight part down if you can not bore in level.  when you turn the saw on its side to start your plunge cut look down the felling sights and make sure they are standing plumb.  if they are you will bore in level

Woody

[joejkd]

you dont have the felling sight part down if you can not bore in level.  when you turn the saw on its side to start your plunge cut look down the felling sights and make sure they are standing plumb.  if they are you will bore in level

Woody

Sorry thought you were talking about the face cut here, didn't realize you used it when you plunged. Not sure how felling sites would help keep you level bar tip-to-powerhead though. Could you elaborate more on this?

[smwwoody]

the line that goes across the top of the saw not the one on the side cover.  you lay your saw on its side to start the plunge cut.  look down the line that is on the cylinder cover.  it will be running up and down since the saw is on its side.  make sure this line is plumb.  when it is your sawbar is level.

Woody

I wil;l look for some pics to help

[Maine372]

make the bottom of your notch level, then if you start your bore cut on each side about an inch above you will be very close.

hinge thickness is more of an art than a science. it depends on wind, lean, species, frozen/thawed, etc, etc, etc 5-10% is good, but 10 is safer.

props on setting a rope. its good insurance. thats why the tree guys use them so much.

[duckslayingpro]

When i said 10% is maximum i am talking about a good healthy not "rot" tree.
different species of trees have more forgiveness than others and you can do more with or make mistakes with and still be fine. but if this tree is above your skill level your better off to walk away. im not stating that as n insult. i do not know your cutting ability. good luck to you

[Peter Drouin]

Hi smwwoody a lot of guys don;t know about the Felling sights. and some have run saws for years  :D :D ;D

[John Mc]

One reason I've seen people's bore cuts drop down (including my own, on occasion) is that they start to stand up straighter as they push on the saw to make the bore cut. The effect gets exaggerated with dull chain or one of the box store safety chains (the kind with the extra link with a bumper strap between each tooth), since you have to push harder on the saw.  Just remember to keep your body down low as you bore (it's easier of you do as much of this as you can with your legs, rather than bending at the waist).

If your notch is level, you can get a feel for the bore cut by doing a "pretend" bore cut using the notch as a guide. Lay the saw over on it's side, and put in in the "V" of the notch groove. Run it in and out (without the chain spinning) as if you are boring, using the notch as a guide. Imagine you are meeting a bit of resistance as you push in.  You can build a bit of "muscle memory". Then move back a few inches, and make your actual bore cut, mimicking the motion you just did when practicing in the notch.

[joejkd]

Nice advice John Mc, used that along with Maine372's technique, I dropped 4 trees nice and clean with it. It seems counterintuitive, but double-bore is a lot easier to pull off than just walking the saw around. Also helps is you suck at sharpening chain (which I do). At least you don't get a nasty surprise when you hit the far side of your cut.

Nice clean butt sections and real easy to make the 2 cuts meet. I take a tape and some chalk with me in, measure the proper distance back from the notch depending on dbh, and one inch up. I then did what John Mc said to get a feel of what level should feel like, then dip the nose slightly (probably about 10-20 degrees).

Thanks guys. Still haven't hit that one at the in-laws yet, though the stuff I dropped this weekend was probably a bit more challenging as far as aiming, none of it was in range of any structures. I'm going to practice a bit more and hopefully get in on a GOL course in the area if I can.

[John Mc]

GOL has a good practice technique they teach for accurate bore cutting.  They cut off a stump 2 or 3 feet above the ground, slice slabs off the sides to square it up (so it looks something like a 12" square sized fence post). They then draw horizontal lines with a permanent marker about 1" apart on one side of the stump.  They draw the same lines on the opposite side of the stump (if you really want to be accurate, you can use a level to make sure they match up with the lines on the first side). 

The practice is to start your bore cut between one set of lines, and come out the other side between the matching set of lines.

For more of a challenge, you can add two vertical lines spaced to allow the bar to just fit (maybe leave yourself an inch of extra space). So you now have drawn a box you have to go through where the bar enters, and another where it should exit.  This helps you get a feel for the lateral alignment, as well as the up & down alignment.

Another extra challenge:  prop one of the slabs you trimmed off up against the exit side of the stump (maybe leave a saw-kerf sized space between it and the stump). Now try to bore through, staying in the "box" mentioned above. Try to come out the exit side without cutting or knocking off the slab you propped up.  No peeking on the exit side. Try to go by feel and knowledge of where your bar tip should be.  This helps develop awareness of where the end of your bar is.
__________________

BTW... as others have noted, it is not necessary for your bore cuts to meet, or even cross each other when you are boring from both sides. What is necessary is to sever all of the fibers (other than those in the hinge). It makes for a nice, clean looking stump if they do meet, but if the two cuts miss each other by an inch in height (or even more) it does not make it noticeably harder to tip the tree.  Similarly, if you have left "holding wood" at the back of the stump, it is not necessary to cut it in exactly the same plane as your back cut. All you have to do is make sure all of the fibers are severed somewhere relatively close to the original cut. (I commonly offset my cut of the holding wood if my wedge is near it, to avoid clipping my wedge.)

[edited to undo scrambled paragraphs]

[joejkd]

GOL has a good practice technique they teach for accurate bore cutting.  They cut off a stump 2 or 3 feet above the ground, slice slabs off the sides to square it up (so it looks something like a 12" square sized fence post). They then draw horizontal lines with a permanent marker about 1" apart on one side of the stump.  They draw the same lines on the opposite side of the stump (if you really want to be accurate, you can use a level to make sure they match up with the lines on the first side). 

The practice is to start your bore cut between one set of lines, and come out the other side between the matching set of lines.
__________________

BTW... as others have noted, it is not necessary for your bore cuts to meet, or even cross each other when you are boring from both sides. What is necessary is to sever all of the fibers (other than those in the hinge). It makes for a nice, clean looking stump if they do meet, but if the two cuts miss each other by an inch in height (or even more) it does not make it noticeably harder to tip the tree.  Similarly, if you have left "holding wood" at the back of the stump, it is not necessary to cut it in exactly the same plane as your back cut. All you have to do is make sure all of the fibers are severed somewhere relatively close to the original cut. (I commonly offset my cut of the holding wood if my wedge is near it, to avoid clipping my wedge.)

For more of a challenge, you can add two vertical lines spaced to allow the bar to just fit (maybe leave yourself an inch of extra space). So you now have drawn a box you have to go through where the bar enters, and another where it should exit.  This helps you get a feel for the lateral alignment, as well as the up & down alignment.

Another extra challenge:  prop one of the slabs you trimmed off up against the exit side of the stump (maybe leave a saw-kerf sized space between it and the stump). Now try to bore through, staying in the "box" mentioned above. Try to come out the exit side without cutting or knocking off the slab you propped up.  No peeking on the exit side. Try to go by feel and knowledge of where your bar tip should be.  This helps develop awareness of where the end of your bar is.

I know what I'm doing this weekend  8)

[Peter Drouin]

 

  the felling sights to keep your bar level to bore.

   felling sight to know where  the bar is level cutting down or when im cutting off a slab and not cut the cant, when a blade on the mill breaks on me. I think all saws have them :D just keep the sights level to your eye and stop making lines on stumps :D ;D

[joejkd]

on the first pic, how does that help? Do you just make sure it's parrallel with the tree? I'm just not sure how looking down on that would help so I must be thinking about it all wrong. I have something similar on my saw it runs the length of the fore grip.

[Peter Drouin]

When you turn the saw sideways you will be looking down on the saw . the line will be going up to you . even with a round top on my saw I can see if it;s plumb stratght up and down. that line is 90degrees to the bar. hope this helps