How do I darken Q-sawn oak rays without using stain?

[Brad_bb]

So I have some new interior divided light doors that are high fleck quarter sawn white oak.  I'm looking to darken the rays like this


 

This is a new piece I came across from a seller at the Round Top Texas antique flea market.  He had a number of White oak pieces he finished like this.  I explained I have a set of doors that I wanted to highlight the rays as he's done.  He said he oxidized the wood with a chemical and did a wax finish.  I asked what he used, but he would not tell me.  He was smug about it, which really put me off.  He would not help me.  From how cagey he was being I don't even know if what he told me was even the truth.  I'm sure he used some chemical or process to get the darkening of the wood.  I know it's NOT vinegar/steel wool/water.  That will turn oak black.  The steel wool does that.  Could it be vinegar?  Lemon Juice?  Was heat used?  I have no idea.  Does anyone?  I want to "oxidize" the wood so that the rays are more contrasted, then I just want to clear it with General Finish High Performance flat.  Help appreciated.

[Don P]

I don't know what was done there. Old arts and crafts furniture was fumed with ammonia in a fuming cabinet, might be worth a google.

[Reddog sawmill]

Lime sulfer would turn the surrounding wood a very light color probably leaving the flecks a darker color and give you that contrast

[DelawhereJoe]

Any idea what chlorine/bleach would do to it, its a rather good oxidizer, according to its warning lables.

[DelawhereJoe]

Forget my last post try this Get the Color Out With Wood Bleach

[bags]

Some of us old rednecks use the K.I.S.S. system. Run a light torch over it--- sand--- then finish.

[Brad_bb]

Reddog, can you explain the process a bit more?  

It seems maybe the ammonia fuming could have been used followed by a liming wax.

[scsmith42]

Ammonia fuming typically turns the non-medullary cells brown.  That photo is much too light to be of wood that has been fumed.

[low_48]

Whatever he did, it sure soaked into the joinery! Even the glue line at the panel seam stands out. I'm guessing two part wood bleach. Some folks make their own 2 part with lye and swimming pool treatment peroxide. Be careful!

[Reddog sawmill]

Typically people use lime sulfer to preserve the "dead wood" on bonsai trees. It is most often just brushed on with a small brush and it turns the wood almost white. That picture almost looks like the wood was slightly toasted and sanded or wiped down with steel wool then a chemical was applied. Lime sulfer will even turn burnt wood white. Wood bleach is another good guess though.

[Brad_bb]

As I said, this piece in the photo has a wax finish.  I could feel the wax on it.  I'm thinking it's probably liming wax (that I just learned about via this post) which has imparted the white grain filling.  

scsmith42, What else would turn the rays brown like that.  From the videos on the web I watched last night on ammonia fuming, it looked like it turned the rays and the rest of the wood brown, although now the same for each.  So the rays seemed to stand out.  

[Magicman]

I sawed some Post Oak logs a couple of weeks ago that had been bucked and neglected for several years and the rays were almost black.  In past years I have seen these black rays in Post Oak several times.  I can easily see where it could be bleached and would look very similar to Brad's picture above.

[scsmith42]

scsmith42, What else would turn the rays brown like that.  From the videos on the web I watched last night on ammonia fuming, it looked like it turned the rays and the rest of the wood brown, although now the same for each.  So the rays seemed to stand out.  

Brad, typically when white oak is fumed the non-medullary cells turn dark, but the medullary cells don't.  So the accentuated color is where there is greater contrast between the two different types of cells.

Fuming changes the color from the outside in, so if you sand a fumed oak surface down you will sand away the color.  The thing is though, the medullary cells are very thin, and you would have sanded through them long before the darker color was sanded off of the rest of the wood.  That's why I don't think that they color you posted was a results of fuming and sanding.

I'm thinking that some of the comments about using lime or wood bleach may be your solution.   I don't know if wood bleach would remove the fumed oak color from the main wood cells.  If you choose to try ammonia fuming yourself, see if you can buy some 29% ammonia solution.  I have some 50% which changes the color very quickly but it's pretty dicey to handle.  Be sure to wear a respirator at all times around it.

[Brad_bb]

Oh yeah, I take precautions.  I used to use Muriatic acid for deep rust pit removal in sheetmetal.  I'll have to take the same precautions I used there working with Ammonia.  Gotta figure out where I can get the 29%.

[ESFted]

I'd experiment on a piece with brown Trans Tint dye, then sand it back.  If the fleck absorbs more than the rest of the wood it will stand out after you sand and then you can lime wax it.

[Brad_bb]

I'm not planning to use Liming wax at all.  I'm just trying to darken the oak a bit and hoping the rays will be darker than the surrounding wood so they'll stand out.  Once I achieve a satisfactory result, I'll apply a couple coats of General finishes High performance FLAT.  I want the quarter sawn oak to look like raw Qsawn oak that has age like the barnwood I've been using.  For example here's the barnwood Vanity I built for the shop bathroom.  Now that I've learned about the affect of ammonia on oak, it's clear that ammonia and time are what made this barnwood look like it does.  You can see the rays are darker than the surrounding wood on this vanity.  It occured naturally in a barn over probably 100-150 years.

[terrifictimbersllc]

Maybe shop around but here it is on Amazon:  29% ammonia

I think it is used in the blueprint industry.

[Brad_bb]

Thanks, I did see that one.  I am looking for at least a gallon.  I found one place online in MN.  I have to call and make sure they can ship it.

[terrifictimbersllc]

If you build a good plastic lined enclosure you can fume a medium size piece with only a cup of the 29% in a shallow saucer.

[Don_Papenburg]

From the barn? horses and cows and pigs all peeing in the barn with other byproducts of feeding . Soak a small section in urine and see what happens.I think it is the ammonia in the urine that does things like that . Might try some anhydrous ammonia also if you have a friendly farmer by you. that will let you use some . Put a small section in a garbage bag . Vapors is all that you need . Safety equipment ,gloves face shield you know . The vapor will make wood bend like plastic also. Maybe clear ammonia would work just as well and be easier to obtain.

[Brad_bb]

Don, From what I've read on the web,  household strength takes way too long to be effective.  It will work, but will take long and won't turn as dark as a 26% or 29% solution.  It's called aqua ammonia, or ammonia liquor and a few other names. With the higher strength, It will only take 4-24 hours depending on how dark you want it.

Yes, it was the ammonia from the animal urine that turned the barnwood oak darker.  Reading on the web it said that some english farmers noticed the effect and figured out that it was the ammonia from the animal urine that turned the wood dark.

[RPF2509]

Blueprint shops - if any still exist- have that strength ammonia.  From what I've seen they darken both the rays and background. Never seen just the rays darken.

[scsmith42]

Brad, it doesn't take much.  I use only a capful of 50% when I'm fuming, and then recover it when I'm done.

29% may take a bit more, but not much.  The key is surface area - a shallow, wide dish will offgas more quickly than a narrow, deep one.

[Magicman]

Brad, back in Reply #11, I described recently sawing some partially spalted Post Oak and the rays were naturally dark and the surrounding wood was a much lighter color.



Today I sawed some Black Oak that had the same characteristics.  Rays darker and the surrounding wood was very light.  There is a possibility that the lumber in the furniture piece that you saw was not altered, but instead the builder used spalted QS Oak lumber.

I see this several times each year. 

[Andries]

MM; I think you nailed it.
Stain, fuming etc will darken all of the wood equally in my experience.
Resulting in the ray fleck being only slightly darker than the surrounding wood
I haven't seen the spalted oak that you and Brad have, but to my thinking, that's what it has to be.
Have to wonder though, how is that only the rays go dark with the spalting process ?
@WDH may have an answer?

[WDH]

No Sir, still a mystery to me.

[Don P]

I've seen micrographs of bluestain hyphae running in the rays, don't know if it is something along those lines or not.

[Magicman]

No Sir, still a mystery to me.

I see it fairly often, just never gave it much thought until now.  I'll be sawing Post Oak today so I wonder what it will look like.

[Brad_bb]

So I built my tent, got the proper ammonia respirator, swim goggles, and chemical gloves.  I got a Pyrex glass pie pan at good will for the ammonia.
Here's the tent and two layers of 3 mil plastic  to protect the concrete.  


 


 
Here are the first samples I did.  The first two are Ash and there is virtually no change in the ash even after 24 hour fuming.  Next is 4 hr, then 8hr, then the next 3 are 24 hours, and finally at the end is the control that did not get any fuming(piece with the 45 degree cut on it).
There is a  minor difference between 4 and 8 hours, but not much.  24 hour samples are slightly darker than the 8hr.  I then took two of the 24 hour samples and did them another 24 for a total of 28 hours.  The difference was not terribly noticeable.

[PA_Walnut]

A common method with figured maple is to aniline dye it, then sand off the color, where is sticks into the deeper pours of the wood.

[Brad_bb]

I'll give you a little taste of why I got on this path of finishing.  I'll have a full post on this in about a month.


 

 

[tule peak timber]

You might want to try EcoWoodTreatment, as it is cheap and easy. There are a number of "fumed products " out there- check out RubioMonocoat.Your next stop are dyes, water or solvent based. If you can find it Gilsonite in a solvent solution works well. I've also used steel wool and vinegar with so-so results.Rob

[Brad_bb]

Rob, as you can see from the pics, this fuming is working very well giving the white oak a rich brown color.  Vinegar/steel wool/water turns oak black, not brown, but black.  I've tried it a couple of times.  That method works great on non coastal doug fir though.  I did 2x6 T&G doug fir flooring with vinegar/steel wool/water.  I'll check out those other things.  Never hurts to have more techniques in your arsenal.  Different techniques seem to work well on some woods and not others. 
I'm an admirer of your work. 

[tule peak timber]

Super , you hit the nail on the head-different woods react differently to the various techniques. Keep up the good work !

[Crusarius]

sure would love to see what that looks like with a clear poly on the 4 hour fumed pieces. I like that color alot. Could never find a stain that I liked to match that.

[Brad_bb]

Going to use 2 coats of General Finishes High Performance FLAT.  You have to keep it mixed to get a consistent finish.  It's What I've been using on all my barnwood trim.    Will post in a new thread when everything is done.

[PA_Walnut]

I'm compelled to ask, why use toxic/dangerous chemicals which require suiting-up when water-based dyes are easier, safer, faster and more predictable? (and inexpensive?) ???

I'm kinda a purist, but dyes are excellent these days.

[Brad_bb]

Ammonia is a natural chemical, though man makes it also for his use.  It's speeding up the natural process by which barn wood darkens from the ammonia in animal urine from animals kept in the barn.

It produces a coloring and effect on white oak that no stain can produce.  This method is inexpensive as well.  The ammonia I bought was $26 plus shipping for the quart.  I use about 3/4 cup for each fuming session.  I could have bought it for about the same price for a gallon, but I didn't want to store unused product for a long amount of time.  This should get me through this project and for the next project I'll buy more.

[Don P]

That is a nice look, I'd like to see a closer shot of a sample flat and QS board with some finish when you get to that point. We've been going rounds with a raven on trash day, ammonia seems to deter him, one more use for spent product :D

[Brad_bb]

AFter fuming for 24 hours there is still a little liquid left in the pan.  I think it's just water and that the ammonia has all evaporated.  I cannot confirm this as I am not going to take my respirator off and smell it.

[PA_Walnut]

Ammonia is a natural chemical, though man makes it also for his use.  It's speeding up the natural process by which barn wood darkens from the ammonia in animal urine from animals kept in the barn. It produces a coloring and effect on white oak that no stain can produce.  This method is inexpensive as well.  The ammonia I bought was $26 plus shipping for the quart.  I use about 3/4 cup for each fuming session.  I could have bought it for about the same price for a gallon, but I didn't want to store unused product for a long amount of time.  This should get me through this project and for the next project I'll buy more.

In the past, I used potassium dichromate to "age" mahogany, but determined that the risk/reward ratio wasn't for me. I'm continually amazed and happy with water-based dyes that I can formulate to do exactly what I want. With curly maple, all of the stock colors and stains just didn't get it. I have my own formula of dyes for maple now, that I like a lot. (see pic below).

Now I'm excited, since I have 5 SUPER curly logs on deck, awaiting sawing and a trip to my private stash!  8)





Good luck with your project...I have a bunch of quarter sawn white oak that I'm drying to put in my cabin project. I'm interested in seeing your results. Be careful and safe!

[scsmith42]

Brad, if you want to experiment a little more, I can send you a few oz of 49%.  Just say the word.

Scott

[WDH]

PA, please tell me how to get that special maple dye.

[Brad_bb]

I don't understand Scott, higher concentration will just make it happen faster.  I don't think it will make it any darker will it?  FYI,The lighting in those pics plays games with the color rendering in the photos.  The sample pic is pretty accurate though.  Also, I wasn't aware you were doing any ammonia fuming?  I will make a new post when they are installed and I get some good pics with proper lighting. They look awesome.  Very nice material indeed.

[shinnlinger]

If you want to turn oak jet black, drop some steel wool in white vinegar and wait a day or two.  Then rub it on the oak and it will turn black before your eyes.

[shinnlinger]

So not a great photo, but the counter on the right is simply white vinegar and steel wool on oak that I put in my wife's coffee shop.

 

[scsmith42]

I don't understand Scott, higher concentration will just make it happen faster.  I don't think it will make it any darker will it?  FYI,The lighting in those pics plays games with the color rendering in the photos.  The sample pic is pretty accurate though.  Also, I wasn't aware you were doing any ammonia fuming?  I will make a new post when they are installed and I get some good pics with proper lighting. They look awesome.  Very nice material indeed.

Brad, when I've fumed in the past the 49% was both faster as well as darker in terms of the end result.  Some of the boards were a very dark brown.

Is this the material that you got from me or something different?

[biggbob]

I have used water base dyes from W d Lockwood for years. Great company to work with. Have all the colors you could want. The metal complex are the best.