The Forestry Forum is sponsored in part by:

TURBOSAWMILL GIANT SALE ON NOW UNTIL OCTOBER 31st


Forestry Forum
Sponsored by:


TimberKing Sawmills



Toll Free 1-800-582-0470

LogRite Tools



Norwood Industries Inc.


Sawmill & Woodlot Magazine



Your source for Portable Sawmills, Edgers, Resaws, Sharpeners, Setters, Bandsaw Blades and Sawmill Parts

EZ Boardwalk Sawmills. More Saw For Less Money!

STIHLDealers.com sponsored by Northeast STIHL


Woodland Sawmills

Peterson Swingmills

 KASCO SharpTech WoodMaxx Blades

Turbosawmill

Sawmill Exchange

BRUTE FORCE Authorized Dealer

Woodshax Outdoor Vending Solutions

FARMA


Council Tool

Baker Products

ECHO-Bearcat



Author Topic: 3pt Logging Winch Build  (Read 3765 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline GigaRift

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 23
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
3pt Logging Winch Build
« on: May 26, 2018, 08:38:24 PM »
So, Iím new to the forum but have done a bit of reading on building a 3pt Skidder plate and winch for my Kubota L2501.

I live in Newfoundland, Canada so the biggest logs I will come across in my area are 20Ē in the butt.

So I came across what seems to be a couple of Braden 20 000 lb pto winches. They have a dog clutch with worm drive and freespool.

So I was thinking of running it off the pto but after some research here on the forum, I understand that you canít unload the winch if it becomes snagged. So I could go hydraulic but am unsure of motor specs and the tractors ability to run it hydraulic. Also I ran the winch over with my cordless drill and it runs fine but it wonít run it backwards. If it canít be ran backwards thereís no point to go hydraulic.

So Iím thinking because itís work drive that it canít runs backwards? 
Or does the cordless drill not generate torque to change direction?

 

 

  

Any help or suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks, Nathan.

Offline mike_belben

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 3066
  • Location: Middle TN
  • Pulp Friction
    • Share Post
Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2018, 10:05:25 PM »
It looks like a worm gear winch to me, and if so will power in and out.  Pull that npt oil plug ontop and shine a flashlight down inside, see what kinda gear is in there.
Revelation 3:20

Offline GigaRift

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 23
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2018, 10:35:37 PM »
They are worm drive. Found them outside at a scrapyard, there were 2. So I came home with 2. Started to take one apart. Want to clean it up and paint it up, also the oil has turned to gunk. Hopefully I can finish cleaning it up tomorrow. 

If i can get power in and out maybe I will consider hydraulic, so my tractor has 5.15 gpm @ 2205 psi and 3 or 4 gpm for power steering which wonít be in use. Not sure if the systems are connected. Is that sufficient to run a hydraulic motor on the winch? 

The only hydraulic remote I have is a front third function valve. So I could run hoses to the rear and just swap out the hoses. Itís a electronic valve as well, so I could run it from a wireless remote and that would make it much safer.

 

 

 

 

 

      

Offline mike_belben

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 3066
  • Location: Middle TN
  • Pulp Friction
    • Share Post
Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2018, 11:10:32 PM »
Youll get a lot more speed and power off your pto shaft i think.  Can you run a vee belt and a idler pulley to couple the pto to the winch input?  This would allow you to back off the cable by hand enough to release the dog clutch and drive out in freewheel. 

 I mean how often do you really wedge the tractor AND the log?  
Revelation 3:20

Offline GigaRift

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 23
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2018, 06:41:10 AM »
I donít know if I would ever get the tractor wedged, as I have no intentions of ever backing up into anything. Iím going to have a blade to dig into the ground, so I kind of thought that maybe I could just lift the plate and back up. Could this work?

I think I under stand what your saying with v belt but I was planning on using chain. If I use v belt I what have to make a second handle to engage power from the pto to the winch. Also I wasnít sure how much power could be transfer using the belt using hand engagement.

Offline J 5

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 19
  • Location: Ottawa Vallley Canada
  • Gender: Male
  • Rebuilt and use Bombardier Muskegs and J5's
    • Share Post
Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2018, 06:43:36 AM »
    Lucky find on the 2 Braden's , if you remove the front cover on the input shaft there is a brake band to hold the load in neutral. I would remove it and go with a hydraulic motor chain driven, you can play with the ratio and get the right speed /verses power to suit your needs. I put one of these on my 2nd J5 , works great, a mechanical driven winch is usually more powerful , but a live hyd winch is easier to work with, just my opinion.
                                            J 5 smiley_smash

 

Offline GigaRift

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 23
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2018, 07:13:35 AM »
Thanks as I was taking the winch apart yesterday I saw the brake your taking about and didnít realize what it was. But now itís clear. I would like to go hydraulic so I could setup a wireless remote to my 3rd function valve. Iím not sure what what size or type of hydraulic motor I would need?

Offline thecfarm

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 27033
  • Age: 57
  • Location: Chesterville,Maine
  • Gender: Male
  • If I don't do it,it don't get done
    • Share Post
Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2018, 07:40:23 AM »
GigaRift,welcome to the forum.
Good idea on the blade,that really can dig in. Do not winch in at a sharp angle. That winch can tip the tractor over if the log gets hung up on something. Set your bakes and put the loader down each time you are winching.
I have 6 slides on my winch. Sometimes all six are used,sometimes only one. Depends on the size of the trees. I have 8 foot chains on my winch.Norse made hangers on the side of the safety cage to hung them. Than there is boxes on each side to put the excess chains in,to keep them from dragging on the ground.I would also suggest some 4 foot chains. Those come in handy for the small stuff.
I have no idea how you will make the winch turn on. Mine a rope is used,6 feet long,gets me away from the tractor. Watch the slash coming towards you as you are winch in.
Learn how to hook your chain low so the log will roll. Meaning what was touching the ground will be on top. Comes in handy to see how many limbs you missed too. 
A 3pt winch is nice to have.
I burn wood so use alot of my limb wood. But what I do leave in the woods is cut into short pieces,I try for no longer than 2 feet. I run my saw up and down the limbs on the soft wood. Even the ones as big around as my finger I cut short. This helps if I have to go in that same spot. Kinda hard for a 2 foot long piece of brush to damage the tractor.Rots quicker too. Yes,it takes time,but makes it easier and safer for me and my tractor.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Offline Satamax

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1202
  • Location: South eastern alps, in France but right on the italian border.
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2018, 07:59:24 AM »
Gigarift. 

I have checked high and low, winches in north america, and europe. 

What i see, about braden and other military winches, modified to run on hydraulics, is, that they are too slow, or lack power. 

5.15 gpm is nothing for a winch i think. Here your ratio is 21/1 

So if you pull 10 tons on the lower layer, The drum looks approximately 5 inches in diameter. So that's 2.5" from the axis. 

You divide your 10 tons (metric, that i know best) 

That's 22000 pounds. 

A foot divided by 2.5 inches, is 4.8

So 22000/ 4.8 = 4583 lb/ft. 

This divided by  21. That's 218 lb/ft on the input shaft.  18.7 lb/in This is nothing for an hydraulic motor. 

But you need approximately 2500 rpm, on the input shaft, to have 79cm cm/s on the lower layer. 

Guys here, told me 1 to 1.2 m/s is good. 

Well, re looking at it, it seems feasible. Tho, guys will certainly correct me. I must have forgotten something. 


https://www.parker.com/literature/Hydraulic%20Pump%20&%20Motor/HY13-1590-010-High-Speed.pdf
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb.

Offline DMcCoy

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 625
  • Location: NW OR
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2018, 08:06:41 AM »
Nice score!  I bought a Braden off of CL and did the same thing you are doing.  Mine came off a wrecker and included a 2 speed gear box. I ran mine hydraulic with a used motor I had lying around, so I never sized it, but it works fine.  Like you I wanted the reverse and I think it's important for how I use mine where I need the ability to let off and change the angle of the pull.  When I am geared down and still hit the hyd. bypass then it is time for a snatch block.  I really wouldn't want it without a reverse the more I think about it, not everything gives easily when you are pulling.

My only negative comment about hydraulic is that your line speed is regulated by engine RPM, but so would PTO.  I find it annoying to have the tractor revved up when all I am doing is getting the line back on the spool.

You could size your motor by line speed, that is what I would do.  I would look up specs on a few electric winches to get a reasonable line speed and then do the math to get the hydraulic motor RPM and size it for full flow of your tractors hydraulic system at that RPM.  Make adjustments with chain and sprockets if you need to, you can pretty easily get 1/2 or 2x by using different sizes of sprockets. I believe my came with #80 chain and that is what I continued with.   Line speed is obviously changes depending on what layer you are on but it's the only way I can think of to get it set up.  Pick a layer on your spool, maybe the middle layer and work you way backwards.

My 2 cents.
Edit, My post looks out of place, while I was typing the above 2 came in.

Offline GigaRift

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 23
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2018, 08:47:22 AM »
5.15 gpm is nothing for a winch i think. Here your ratio is 21/1

So if you pull 10 tons on the lower layer, The drum looks approximately 5 inches in diameter. So that's 2.5" from the axis.

You divide your 10 tons (metric, that i know best)

That's 22000 pounds.

A foot divided by 2.5 inches, is 4.8

So 22000/ 4.8 = 4583 lb/ft.

This divided by  21. That's 218 lb/ft on the input shaft.  18.7 lb/in This is nothing for an hydraulic motor.

But you need approximately 2500 rpm, on the input shaft, to have 79cm cm/s on the lower layer.

Guys here, told me 1 to 1.2 m/s is good.
Not really understanding how you got from 218 ft/lb to 18.7 in/lb. Which one of these would my hydraulic motor need to have?
If its 18.7 in/lb then i have found a motor and a hydraulic calculator that says my tractor could run this motor at 540 rpm at 700 in/lb. Now the motor is only rated for 638 in/lb and 2030psi. While my tractor runs at 2205 at max. So i am thinking that this motor would work if i gear it up for speed but not sure how you made these calcuations. Right now i have a 15 tooth chain sprocket that came on the winch.
Also im not sure if it would need it to be that fast, i could settle for less speed. 79 cm/s thats roughly 2.5 ft/s. If i had to i could settle for less.
Hydraulic Motor
Hydraulic Calculator

I may be way off base here, as i am not well educated in hydraulics. I'm a electrician, so i have basic understandings of energy and force flows.

Thanks, Nathan

Offline mike_belben

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 3066
  • Location: Middle TN
  • Pulp Friction
    • Share Post
Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2018, 09:58:01 AM »
if you want remote control itll have to be hydraulic.  My best advice is to find a variable displacement hydraulic motor.  Itll be a piston pump with a swash plate and a manual lever sticking out the side.  This will give you faster and slower line speed.

Tenant sweepers used them for variable speed either fan or brush, i cant recall.  My old walk beside trencher uses a big vari speed motor to switch from travel to work speed.  This will give you a snail vs not snail line speed.  
Revelation 3:20

Offline mike_belben

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 3066
  • Location: Middle TN
  • Pulp Friction
    • Share Post
Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2018, 09:59:35 AM »
SSidenote, how bad do those J5s wheelie with rear engine?  Whats the avatar pic with a loader on it?  
Revelation 3:20

Offline GigaRift

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 23
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2018, 10:36:36 AM »
   Lucky find on the 2 Braden's , if you remove the front cover on the input shaft there is a brake band to hold the load in neutral. I would remove it and go with a hydraulic motor chain driven, you can play with the ratio and get the right speed /verses power to suit your needs.
What parts do I need to remove on that side. Just the brake pad or the keyed drum and all? 
What thinking all of it but not sure if it would cause a balance issue with the shaft?

Offline GigaRift

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 23
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2018, 10:40:28 AM »
if you want remote control itll have to be hydraulic.  My best advice is to find a variable displacement hydraulic motor.  Itll be a piston pump with a swash plate and a manual lever sticking out the side.  This will give you faster and slower line speed.

Tenant sweepers used them for variable speed either fan or brush, i cant recall.  My old walk beside trencher uses a big vari speed motor to switch from travel to work speed.  This will give you a snail vs not snail line speed.  
Good suggestion but i doubt I can find anything like that here or even online that would be willing to ship here. Princess auto is probably the best online source for me or amazon.ca. After looking at the numbers, I really think that the motor I found on princess auto will work by gearing up by 1/2 or 3/4 the ratio. But, i may be completely wrong. 

Offline Satamax

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1202
  • Location: South eastern alps, in France but right on the italian border.
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2018, 02:34:12 PM »
5.15 gpm is nothing for a winch i think. Here your ratio is 21/1

So if you pull 10 tons on the lower layer, The drum looks approximately 5 inches in diameter. So that's 2.5" from the axis.

You divide your 10 tons (metric, that i know best)

That's 22000 pounds.

A foot divided by 2.5 inches, is 4.8

So 22000/ 4.8 = 4583 lb/ft.

This divided by  21. That's 218 lb/ft on the input shaft.  18.7 lb/in This is nothing for an hydraulic motor.

But you need approximately 2500 rpm, on the input shaft, to have 79cm cm/s on the lower layer.

Guys here, told me 1 to 1.2 m/s is good.
Not really understanding how you got from 218 ft/lb to 18.7 in/lb. Which one of these would my hydraulic motor need to have?
If its 18.7 in/lb 
Thanks, Nathan
Nathan, careful, i'm french so those units are alien to me. Pretty much. 
I might have reversed the two of FT and LB. 

Basically, to turn this winch,(remember i made approximation on the drum size)  at ten metric tons on the first layer. you need a torque of 4583 pounds per foot. Or if you prefer, at one foot from the axis. 
Then you divide this number by the worm and gear ratio. Which from your photos, seems to be 21 to 1. 
So, that's 218 pounds, at one foot. 
And, now i see it, this is where i made the mistake. This number i should have multiplied by 12, as there is 12 inches per foot. And not divided by 12!  But i might be off again!
So that's 2616 pounds at one inch. My mistake. Seems far less feasible now! 
The highest torque from the parker motors above, is 1750 lb/in
May be some of the OMT danfoss can do this torque. But not the speed! 
A DMcCoy said, find yourself a gearbox. It will be way simpler. Tho, you still have to check for the torque! 

French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb.

Offline DMcCoy

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 625
  • Location: NW OR
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2018, 02:51:01 PM »
I left my brake plates in and set them loose, it works ok. 

What I see you wondering about is tons of pulling power.  Without re reading the whole thread I think is was Santamax that mentioned hydraulic winches are 'usually' either underpowered or too slow.

There is a trade off.  Your tractor hydraulic HP is the limiting factor.  Then it becomes a decision with which is most important.  Having a winch capable of 20,000 lbs is great.  Having to hang onto a winch line for 1/2 hr to respool the line sucks.   Try and figure your average real need for winching, not your max.  Is it really 20,000 lbs or more like 8,000lbs.  If you set it up for your average then your line speed will be about as good (fast) as you can get it.  For the super heavy stuff a good snatch block will double your power and halve your speed. 

Offline GigaRift

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 23
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2018, 04:04:41 PM »
You are correct on the drum size. It is 5" inside diameter and 14" outside. The worm gear ratio is 21:1. DMcCoy, i understand what you are saying with my actual need for 20 000lb capacity. But i am unsure of how much i would actually need as i have never pulled logs or wood with winch before. So i will try to play with some numbers and see if i can get a capacity and speed that my suit my needs if not i guess ill run it pto.

If i did go with the pto with 19 hp at the pto would that be capable of pulling the 20 000lb and possibly use some gearing up to get high that 540 to the input?

Offline Satamax

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1202
  • Location: South eastern alps, in France but right on the italian border.
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2018, 04:23:04 PM »
DMcCoy, you're forgetting a part in the equation, the calculation i did, is for the first layer, where the pull is at it's maximum. 

French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb.

Offline whatwas

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 34
  • Age: 55
  • Location: near north ontario
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2018, 04:52:15 PM »
I have used a Braden winch for 30+ years powered by PTO. If you get it snuffed up than just back it off by spinning the PTO shaft backwards, if you really snuff er' than a small bar threaded through the "u" joint is required.
Just don't put the base blade against something solid like a stump or a big rock and 9 times outta 10 you can back up enough to release the dog.
I would suggest making the cable the "weak link" because you can get in bad trouble real quick if the log gets jammed, that winch will put you in a position where you may have to throw your nickers away.


 You can see by the welds ,I've had to decapitate it twice, once to replace the bronze gear and once to remove the internal brake band, I use a cable operated disc brake caliper (snowmobile) to slow the drum and not make a birds nest when you release the dog.
Good luck (

 
life is good


Share via delicious Share via digg Share via facebook Share via linkedin Share via pinterest Share via reddit Share via stumble Share via tumblr Share via twitter

xx
Electric Logging Winch Build with Pics

Started by Dakota on Forestry and Logging

12 Replies
7513 Views
Last post March 25, 2011, 11:49:46 PM
by shinnlinger
xx
GOTTA BUILD A WINCH

Started by hillbilly on Forestry and Logging

15 Replies
2951 Views
Last post October 14, 2004, 10:59:59 AM
by ScottAR
xx
My Hydraulic Winch Build.

Started by GearDrive on Forestry and Logging

22 Replies
2068 Views
Last post November 15, 2017, 09:39:50 PM
by mike_belben
xx
Anyone ever build a winch fed/chainsaw cut processor??

Started by bmcdowell40 on Firewood and Wood Heating

15 Replies
2326 Views
Last post October 05, 2013, 11:32:53 AM
by John Mc
 


Powered by EzPortal