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Author Topic: 3pt Logging Winch Build  (Read 4019 times)

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Offline GigaRift

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3pt Logging Winch Build
« on: May 26, 2018, 08:38:24 PM »
So, Iím new to the forum but have done a bit of reading on building a 3pt Skidder plate and winch for my Kubota L2501.

I live in Newfoundland, Canada so the biggest logs I will come across in my area are 20Ē in the butt.

So I came across what seems to be a couple of Braden 20 000 lb pto winches. They have a dog clutch with worm drive and freespool.

So I was thinking of running it off the pto but after some research here on the forum, I understand that you canít unload the winch if it becomes snagged. So I could go hydraulic but am unsure of motor specs and the tractors ability to run it hydraulic. Also I ran the winch over with my cordless drill and it runs fine but it wonít run it backwards. If it canít be ran backwards thereís no point to go hydraulic.

So Iím thinking because itís work drive that it canít runs backwards? 
Or does the cordless drill not generate torque to change direction?

 

 

  

Any help or suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks, Nathan.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2018, 10:05:25 PM »
It looks like a worm gear winch to me, and if so will power in and out.  Pull that npt oil plug ontop and shine a flashlight down inside, see what kinda gear is in there.
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Offline GigaRift

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2018, 10:35:37 PM »
They are worm drive. Found them outside at a scrapyard, there were 2. So I came home with 2. Started to take one apart. Want to clean it up and paint it up, also the oil has turned to gunk. Hopefully I can finish cleaning it up tomorrow. 

If i can get power in and out maybe I will consider hydraulic, so my tractor has 5.15 gpm @ 2205 psi and 3 or 4 gpm for power steering which wonít be in use. Not sure if the systems are connected. Is that sufficient to run a hydraulic motor on the winch? 

The only hydraulic remote I have is a front third function valve. So I could run hoses to the rear and just swap out the hoses. Itís a electronic valve as well, so I could run it from a wireless remote and that would make it much safer.

 

 

 

 

 

      

Offline mike_belben

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2018, 11:10:32 PM »
Youll get a lot more speed and power off your pto shaft i think.  Can you run a vee belt and a idler pulley to couple the pto to the winch input?  This would allow you to back off the cable by hand enough to release the dog clutch and drive out in freewheel. 

 I mean how often do you really wedge the tractor AND the log?  
Revelation 3:20

Offline GigaRift

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2018, 06:41:10 AM »
I donít know if I would ever get the tractor wedged, as I have no intentions of ever backing up into anything. Iím going to have a blade to dig into the ground, so I kind of thought that maybe I could just lift the plate and back up. Could this work?

I think I under stand what your saying with v belt but I was planning on using chain. If I use v belt I what have to make a second handle to engage power from the pto to the winch. Also I wasnít sure how much power could be transfer using the belt using hand engagement.

Offline J 5

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2018, 06:43:36 AM »
    Lucky find on the 2 Braden's , if you remove the front cover on the input shaft there is a brake band to hold the load in neutral. I would remove it and go with a hydraulic motor chain driven, you can play with the ratio and get the right speed /verses power to suit your needs. I put one of these on my 2nd J5 , works great, a mechanical driven winch is usually more powerful , but a live hyd winch is easier to work with, just my opinion.
                                            J 5 smiley_smash

 

Offline GigaRift

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2018, 07:13:35 AM »
Thanks as I was taking the winch apart yesterday I saw the brake your taking about and didnít realize what it was. But now itís clear. I would like to go hydraulic so I could setup a wireless remote to my 3rd function valve. Iím not sure what what size or type of hydraulic motor I would need?

Offline thecfarm

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2018, 07:40:23 AM »
GigaRift,welcome to the forum.
Good idea on the blade,that really can dig in. Do not winch in at a sharp angle. That winch can tip the tractor over if the log gets hung up on something. Set your bakes and put the loader down each time you are winching.
I have 6 slides on my winch. Sometimes all six are used,sometimes only one. Depends on the size of the trees. I have 8 foot chains on my winch.Norse made hangers on the side of the safety cage to hung them. Than there is boxes on each side to put the excess chains in,to keep them from dragging on the ground.I would also suggest some 4 foot chains. Those come in handy for the small stuff.
I have no idea how you will make the winch turn on. Mine a rope is used,6 feet long,gets me away from the tractor. Watch the slash coming towards you as you are winch in.
Learn how to hook your chain low so the log will roll. Meaning what was touching the ground will be on top. Comes in handy to see how many limbs you missed too. 
A 3pt winch is nice to have.
I burn wood so use alot of my limb wood. But what I do leave in the woods is cut into short pieces,I try for no longer than 2 feet. I run my saw up and down the limbs on the soft wood. Even the ones as big around as my finger I cut short. This helps if I have to go in that same spot. Kinda hard for a 2 foot long piece of brush to damage the tractor.Rots quicker too. Yes,it takes time,but makes it easier and safer for me and my tractor.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Offline Satamax

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2018, 07:59:24 AM »
Gigarift. 

I have checked high and low, winches in north america, and europe. 

What i see, about braden and other military winches, modified to run on hydraulics, is, that they are too slow, or lack power. 

5.15 gpm is nothing for a winch i think. Here your ratio is 21/1 

So if you pull 10 tons on the lower layer, The drum looks approximately 5 inches in diameter. So that's 2.5" from the axis. 

You divide your 10 tons (metric, that i know best) 

That's 22000 pounds. 

A foot divided by 2.5 inches, is 4.8

So 22000/ 4.8 = 4583 lb/ft. 

This divided by  21. That's 218 lb/ft on the input shaft.  18.7 lb/in This is nothing for an hydraulic motor. 

But you need approximately 2500 rpm, on the input shaft, to have 79cm cm/s on the lower layer. 

Guys here, told me 1 to 1.2 m/s is good. 

Well, re looking at it, it seems feasible. Tho, guys will certainly correct me. I must have forgotten something. 


https://www.parker.com/literature/Hydraulic%20Pump%20&%20Motor/HY13-1590-010-High-Speed.pdf
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb.

Offline DMcCoy

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2018, 08:06:41 AM »
Nice score!  I bought a Braden off of CL and did the same thing you are doing.  Mine came off a wrecker and included a 2 speed gear box. I ran mine hydraulic with a used motor I had lying around, so I never sized it, but it works fine.  Like you I wanted the reverse and I think it's important for how I use mine where I need the ability to let off and change the angle of the pull.  When I am geared down and still hit the hyd. bypass then it is time for a snatch block.  I really wouldn't want it without a reverse the more I think about it, not everything gives easily when you are pulling.

My only negative comment about hydraulic is that your line speed is regulated by engine RPM, but so would PTO.  I find it annoying to have the tractor revved up when all I am doing is getting the line back on the spool.

You could size your motor by line speed, that is what I would do.  I would look up specs on a few electric winches to get a reasonable line speed and then do the math to get the hydraulic motor RPM and size it for full flow of your tractors hydraulic system at that RPM.  Make adjustments with chain and sprockets if you need to, you can pretty easily get 1/2 or 2x by using different sizes of sprockets. I believe my came with #80 chain and that is what I continued with.   Line speed is obviously changes depending on what layer you are on but it's the only way I can think of to get it set up.  Pick a layer on your spool, maybe the middle layer and work you way backwards.

My 2 cents.
Edit, My post looks out of place, while I was typing the above 2 came in.

Offline GigaRift

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2018, 08:47:22 AM »
5.15 gpm is nothing for a winch i think. Here your ratio is 21/1

So if you pull 10 tons on the lower layer, The drum looks approximately 5 inches in diameter. So that's 2.5" from the axis.

You divide your 10 tons (metric, that i know best)

That's 22000 pounds.

A foot divided by 2.5 inches, is 4.8

So 22000/ 4.8 = 4583 lb/ft.

This divided by  21. That's 218 lb/ft on the input shaft.  18.7 lb/in This is nothing for an hydraulic motor.

But you need approximately 2500 rpm, on the input shaft, to have 79cm cm/s on the lower layer.

Guys here, told me 1 to 1.2 m/s is good.
Not really understanding how you got from 218 ft/lb to 18.7 in/lb. Which one of these would my hydraulic motor need to have?
If its 18.7 in/lb then i have found a motor and a hydraulic calculator that says my tractor could run this motor at 540 rpm at 700 in/lb. Now the motor is only rated for 638 in/lb and 2030psi. While my tractor runs at 2205 at max. So i am thinking that this motor would work if i gear it up for speed but not sure how you made these calcuations. Right now i have a 15 tooth chain sprocket that came on the winch.
Also im not sure if it would need it to be that fast, i could settle for less speed. 79 cm/s thats roughly 2.5 ft/s. If i had to i could settle for less.
Hydraulic Motor
Hydraulic Calculator

I may be way off base here, as i am not well educated in hydraulics. I'm a electrician, so i have basic understandings of energy and force flows.

Thanks, Nathan

Offline mike_belben

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2018, 09:58:01 AM »
if you want remote control itll have to be hydraulic.  My best advice is to find a variable displacement hydraulic motor.  Itll be a piston pump with a swash plate and a manual lever sticking out the side.  This will give you faster and slower line speed.

Tenant sweepers used them for variable speed either fan or brush, i cant recall.  My old walk beside trencher uses a big vari speed motor to switch from travel to work speed.  This will give you a snail vs not snail line speed.  
Revelation 3:20

Offline mike_belben

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2018, 09:59:35 AM »
SSidenote, how bad do those J5s wheelie with rear engine?  Whats the avatar pic with a loader on it?  
Revelation 3:20

Offline GigaRift

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2018, 10:36:36 AM »
   Lucky find on the 2 Braden's , if you remove the front cover on the input shaft there is a brake band to hold the load in neutral. I would remove it and go with a hydraulic motor chain driven, you can play with the ratio and get the right speed /verses power to suit your needs.
What parts do I need to remove on that side. Just the brake pad or the keyed drum and all? 
What thinking all of it but not sure if it would cause a balance issue with the shaft?

Offline GigaRift

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2018, 10:40:28 AM »
if you want remote control itll have to be hydraulic.  My best advice is to find a variable displacement hydraulic motor.  Itll be a piston pump with a swash plate and a manual lever sticking out the side.  This will give you faster and slower line speed.

Tenant sweepers used them for variable speed either fan or brush, i cant recall.  My old walk beside trencher uses a big vari speed motor to switch from travel to work speed.  This will give you a snail vs not snail line speed.  
Good suggestion but i doubt I can find anything like that here or even online that would be willing to ship here. Princess auto is probably the best online source for me or amazon.ca. After looking at the numbers, I really think that the motor I found on princess auto will work by gearing up by 1/2 or 3/4 the ratio. But, i may be completely wrong. 

Offline Satamax

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2018, 02:34:12 PM »
5.15 gpm is nothing for a winch i think. Here your ratio is 21/1

So if you pull 10 tons on the lower layer, The drum looks approximately 5 inches in diameter. So that's 2.5" from the axis.

You divide your 10 tons (metric, that i know best)

That's 22000 pounds.

A foot divided by 2.5 inches, is 4.8

So 22000/ 4.8 = 4583 lb/ft.

This divided by  21. That's 218 lb/ft on the input shaft.  18.7 lb/in This is nothing for an hydraulic motor.

But you need approximately 2500 rpm, on the input shaft, to have 79cm cm/s on the lower layer.

Guys here, told me 1 to 1.2 m/s is good.
Not really understanding how you got from 218 ft/lb to 18.7 in/lb. Which one of these would my hydraulic motor need to have?
If its 18.7 in/lb 
Thanks, Nathan
Nathan, careful, i'm french so those units are alien to me. Pretty much. 
I might have reversed the two of FT and LB. 

Basically, to turn this winch,(remember i made approximation on the drum size)  at ten metric tons on the first layer. you need a torque of 4583 pounds per foot. Or if you prefer, at one foot from the axis. 
Then you divide this number by the worm and gear ratio. Which from your photos, seems to be 21 to 1. 
So, that's 218 pounds, at one foot. 
And, now i see it, this is where i made the mistake. This number i should have multiplied by 12, as there is 12 inches per foot. And not divided by 12!  But i might be off again!
So that's 2616 pounds at one inch. My mistake. Seems far less feasible now! 
The highest torque from the parker motors above, is 1750 lb/in
May be some of the OMT danfoss can do this torque. But not the speed! 
A DMcCoy said, find yourself a gearbox. It will be way simpler. Tho, you still have to check for the torque! 

French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb.

Offline DMcCoy

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2018, 02:51:01 PM »
I left my brake plates in and set them loose, it works ok. 

What I see you wondering about is tons of pulling power.  Without re reading the whole thread I think is was Santamax that mentioned hydraulic winches are 'usually' either underpowered or too slow.

There is a trade off.  Your tractor hydraulic HP is the limiting factor.  Then it becomes a decision with which is most important.  Having a winch capable of 20,000 lbs is great.  Having to hang onto a winch line for 1/2 hr to respool the line sucks.   Try and figure your average real need for winching, not your max.  Is it really 20,000 lbs or more like 8,000lbs.  If you set it up for your average then your line speed will be about as good (fast) as you can get it.  For the super heavy stuff a good snatch block will double your power and halve your speed. 

Offline GigaRift

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2018, 04:04:41 PM »
You are correct on the drum size. It is 5" inside diameter and 14" outside. The worm gear ratio is 21:1. DMcCoy, i understand what you are saying with my actual need for 20 000lb capacity. But i am unsure of how much i would actually need as i have never pulled logs or wood with winch before. So i will try to play with some numbers and see if i can get a capacity and speed that my suit my needs if not i guess ill run it pto.

If i did go with the pto with 19 hp at the pto would that be capable of pulling the 20 000lb and possibly use some gearing up to get high that 540 to the input?

Offline Satamax

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2018, 04:23:04 PM »
DMcCoy, you're forgetting a part in the equation, the calculation i did, is for the first layer, where the pull is at it's maximum. 

French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb.

Offline whatwas

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2018, 04:52:15 PM »
I have used a Braden winch for 30+ years powered by PTO. If you get it snuffed up than just back it off by spinning the PTO shaft backwards, if you really snuff er' than a small bar threaded through the "u" joint is required.
Just don't put the base blade against something solid like a stump or a big rock and 9 times outta 10 you can back up enough to release the dog.
I would suggest making the cable the "weak link" because you can get in bad trouble real quick if the log gets jammed, that winch will put you in a position where you may have to throw your nickers away.


 You can see by the welds ,I've had to decapitate it twice, once to replace the bronze gear and once to remove the internal brake band, I use a cable operated disc brake caliper (snowmobile) to slow the drum and not make a birds nest when you release the dog.
Good luck (

 
life is good

Offline GigaRift

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2018, 05:21:12 PM »
Thanks for the reply and pics whatwas. Looks nice, do you run it using chain, also are you running a 1:1 ratio to the input shaft?

Offline thecfarm

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2018, 05:24:13 PM »
You only have 19hp at the drawbar? You won't be pulling alot with it anyways.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Offline GigaRift

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2018, 05:37:24 PM »
Gigarift.

I have checked high and low, winches in north america, and europe.

What i see, about braden and other military winches, modified to run on hydraulics, is, that they are too slow, or lack power.

5.15 gpm is nothing for a winch i think. Here your ratio is 21/1

So if you pull 10 tons on the lower layer, The drum looks approximately 5 inches in diameter. So that's 2.5" from the axis.

You divide your 10 tons (metric, that i know best)

That's 22000 pounds.

A foot divided by 2.5 inches, is 4.8

So 22000/ 4.8 = 4583 lb/ft.

This divided by  21. That's 218 lb/ft on the input shaft.  18.7 lb/in This is nothing for an hydraulic motor.

But you need approximately 2500 rpm, on the input shaft, to have 79cm cm/s on the lower layer.

Guys here, told me 1 to 1.2 m/s is good.

Well, re looking at it, it seems feasible. Tho, guys will certainly correct me. I must have forgotten something.


https://www.parker.com/literature/Hydraulic%20Pump%20&%20Motor/HY13-1590-010-High-Speed.pdf
So, if i ran it off the pto at 1:1 540 rpm. Starting in reverse with your calculations.
540/21 = 25.7 drum rpm
With a circumference of 15.7 on the inner layer 
25.7*15.7 = 403.5 in per min == 33.6 ft/min
Now at 540 rpm at 19hp at the pto, i have 184.8 ft/lb.

184.8*21 = 3880.8 ft/lb to the drum axis

3880.8*4.8 = 18627.8 line pull on the inner layer

So if my calculations are right, which there is a good chance i missed something. I should be able to get 18627.8lb at 33.6ft/min, which i would be satisfied with.

Offline Satamax

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2018, 05:37:41 PM »
Nathan, 19HP seems awfully low, for this type of winch. 

540 is no good either. What you need is engine speed PTO. Isn't there one on your tractor? 

By the way, which make and model is it? 

I've been through this for a year or so. Thankfully, i have engine speed PTO. And full power on the PTO, 125 din HP. Or thereabouts. The limiting factor, in the power transmission, for me, is the shaft couplers. Limits the force to 70HP. And i got lucky in picking up the tractor. 

I think, if you can ditch the bradens, cleaned up, and with new bearings etc. For some money. Best option would be to buy a real tractor winch, which suits your tractor. 

Or another completely mad option.  Fit a gen set on your crankshaft. And power your winch with a three phase motor. I would advise to get an european 1500rpm 50hz, three phase generator. And a 2800 rpm motor. 

this way, you would have high torque. Remoteability, reversability. You could manage half of your engine power, may be more. 

But that's for the mad option! :D 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb.

Offline Satamax

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2018, 05:45:37 PM »
Sorry Nathan. You posted at the same time as me. 

Well, 33ft, or 10 meters per minute, seems awfully slow. 

Well, you could use a doubler, or tripler, at the expense of the torque. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb.

Offline J 5

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #25 on: May 27, 2018, 05:50:15 PM »
SSidenote, how bad do those J5s wheelie with rear engine?  Whats the avatar pic with a loader on it?  
            To big a log the rear boogie will shove the track crossers into the fenders, so usually have to use a snatchblock low on the machine. Avatar pic , Bombardier Muskeg ( big brother to the J5 )

Offline J 5

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #26 on: May 27, 2018, 05:53:15 PM »
   Lucky find on the 2 Braden's , if you remove the front cover on the input shaft there is a brake band to hold the load in neutral. I would remove it and go with a hydraulic motor chain driven, you can play with the ratio and get the right speed /verses power to suit your needs.
What parts do I need to remove on that side. Just the brake pad or the keyed drum and all?
What thinking all of it but not sure if it would cause a balance issue with the shaft?
 Just remove the band ,they are usually caked with grease  and sometimes the adjustment bolt  is broke off the band.

Offline GigaRift

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2018, 06:15:17 PM »
The tractor produces 19hp at the pto at 540 pto rpm at 2105 engine rpm. Its a Kubota L2501.

Offline GigaRift

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #28 on: May 27, 2018, 06:31:41 PM »
Just a thought, but could i feed the worm from the pto using a v belt and have a hand tensioner/engagement. Then if it became snagged, i could release the engagement and loosen the break band nut on the worm to release the drum? and then release the dog clutch?

I would not think this would be a regular thing but just in the case of a snagged log. Also i have no intentions of backing into anything solid like a stump, tree or rock.

Also what would be the pros and cons of using a v belt vs chain? Could set up different gearing like a drill press with the belt? 

Offline GigaRift

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #29 on: May 27, 2018, 06:49:38 PM »
Sorry Nathan. You posted at the same time as me.

Well, 33ft, or 10 meters per minute, seems awfully slow.

Well, you could use a doubler, or tripler, at the expense of the torque.
It might seem slow but im only having 150 or so of cable. So 5 min max to pull in the entire length, which at most times it will not be out the entire length. Also i think you might be under the assumption that im logging for money. But im mainly using it to get logs at times but mostly firewood. We have a lot of hills, so the winch is to get them up to the road mainly.
So a 8 to 12in bottom at 20 to 30 feet. So if the winch could haul 3 at a time which according to log calculator for black spruce or balsam fir is approx 500 lb log times 3.
I could understand where this seems slow for commercial logging but this is not the case.
Do you think my calculation on the winch pulling 18500lb at 540 pto are correct or way off?
Sorry if there is some misunderstanding here on my part.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #30 on: May 27, 2018, 06:51:36 PM »
A small manual car transmission would give you reverse and plenty of line speed options.  Weld a 6spline coupler to a torched out clutch center hub, and a sprocket or belt sheave onto the output yoke then mate it to the winch.

A belts virtue is that it can be a clutch.. You can adjust it to slip rather than break a pto or flip the tractor.  Weakness is the hp limitation.  The chain and sprocket has no option to slip and will transfer a lot more power given the same packaging size.  Either is perfectly happy to take your fingers off of coarse.



A braden 20T winch is for pulling 6x6 trucks out of the mud.  Realistically, i think your tractor isnt gonna be able to pull by tire engagement any more than an 8 or 10k electric truck winch will reel in.  My bobcat 742 with an 8k smittybilt winch can reel in twice what it can then motor around with. Its fine on very short retrievals, i winch in, then spool out and reposition around whatever obstacle, then winch to me again, repeat. 
Revelation 3:20

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #31 on: May 27, 2018, 07:03:28 PM »
A small manual car transmission would give you reverse and plenty of line speed options.  Weld a 6spline coupler to a torched out clutch center hub, and a sprocket or belt sheave onto the output yoke then mate it to the winch.

A belts virtue is that it can be a clutch.. You can adjust it to slip rather than break a pto or flip the tractor.  Weakness is the hp limitation.  The chain and sprocket has no option to slip and will transfer a lot more power given the same packaging size.  Either is perfectly happy to take your fingers off of coarse.



A braden 20T winch is for pulling 6x6 trucks out of the mud.  Realistically, i think your tractor isnt gonna be able to pull by tire engagement any more than an 8 or 10k electric truck winch will reel in.  My bobcat 742 with an 8k smittybilt winch can reel in twice what it can then motor around with. Its fine on very short retrievals, i winch in, then spool out and reposition around whatever obstacle, then winch to me again, repeat.
Thanks mike, if you can pull you weight with a 8000lb electric, then i can understand completely where i dont need 20000lb pulling strength. This is where i can loose pulling strength for speed, but at the same time i don't want to much speed for the safety of me and the tractor. I did think about electric but it is a much more expensive option, they don't have a very good duty cycle without paying a lot, while you need a good electrical system to run it continuously aswell.
As for the transmission idea, i think its good but i think if i play around a little with ratio that i should be able to get a good mix of pull and speed for my needs.
Thanks.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #32 on: May 27, 2018, 07:14:23 PM »
One virtue i could see to belts would be using a 3 or 4 step matched pulley set from a drill press, with a lawn mower tensioner so you can change them pretty fast.  Taking that thought a step further would be a variable speed drive belt pilfered off a junk quad or sled.  Old bobcat 400-600 series used a hydraulic variable sheave to create a high and low range travel control. 


The thing about line speed is one speed is never right.  Its too fast or too slow.  Or too compromised.  
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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #33 on: May 27, 2018, 07:17:33 PM »
One virtue i could see to belts would be using a 3 or 4 step matched pulley set from a drill press, with a lawn mower tensioner so you can change them pretty fast.  Taking that thought a step further would be a variable speed drive belt pilfered off a junk quad or sled.  Old bobcat 400-600 series used a hydraulic variable sheave to create a high and low range travel control.


The thing about line speed is one speed is never right.  Its too fast or too slow.  Or too compromised.  
The drill press idea was exactly what i was thinking but not sure if that size belt would be able to handle the hp.

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #34 on: May 27, 2018, 07:54:23 PM »
GigaRift
Mine runs a 28 tooth drive and a 20 tooth driven #60 chain, too fast  some times and to slow some times. I had a long winded post with more info but lost it cause puters hate me and I hate them.
This winch is more than I require but better then the alternative. It may not work for you but it makes my ole tired dexta tractor a useful tool. It doesn't care if its pulling a log out or pulling your tractor back , it just pulls. 

life is good

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #35 on: May 27, 2018, 08:03:12 PM »
GigaRift
Mine runs a 28 tooth drive and a 20 tooth driven #60 chain, too fast  some times and to slow some times. I had a long winded post with more info but lost it cause puters hate me and I hate them.
This winch is more than I require but better then the alternative. It may not work for you but it makes my ole tired dexta tractor a useful tool. It doesn't care if its pulling a log out or pulling your tractor back , it just pulls.
So your actually slowing down your pto speed, is it 540 or 1000 pto? Also what is the specs on your tractor? 

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #36 on: May 27, 2018, 08:46:50 PM »
Pto shaft sprocket (drive) is larger, winch shaft sprocket( driven) is smaller That speeds winch shaft up. 
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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #37 on: May 27, 2018, 08:52:12 PM »
Pto shaft sprocket (drive) is larger, winch shaft sprocket( driven) is smaller That speeds winch shaft up.
Yes, thatís correct. 

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #38 on: May 27, 2018, 10:00:52 PM »


The design charts.. If im reading correctly, show that a single "B" belt at 1000 rpm can transmit a max of about 20hp.  @540 it'd be about 14 HP or so.  Thats assuming good sheaves and a full wrap, proper tension, sufficient min radius etc etc.
Sled torque convertors these days handle 90, 100 horse and up.



Far as i am concerned a true hydrostatic winch drive would be the cats meow. 
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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #39 on: May 28, 2018, 01:21:39 AM »


The design charts.. If im reading correctly, show that a single "B" belt at 1000 rpm can transmit a max of about 20hp.  @540 it'd be about 14 HP or so.  Thats assuming good sheaves and a full wrap, proper tension, sufficient min radius etc etc.
Sled torque convertors these days handle 90, 100 horse and up.



Far as i am concerned a true hydrostatic winch drive would be the cats meow.
Mike, hydrostatic needs power and volume! I think, the true solution, is not to use a braden in the first place for this. Since the gearing down of worm and gear needs high speed, ish. Better to start with a track motor, like most hydraulic winches do nowadays. 
For you guys, who can read french, sortof. There is a very good graph, in paragraph 2. About pulley power transmission.  
I - Transmissions par poulies et courroies
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb.

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #40 on: May 28, 2018, 02:10:17 AM »
All things in proportion.  A hydrostatic system sized for his engine output and chassis weight would work very well.  Just like, well, like skidsteers and lawnmowers work very well.  If there was something better than hydrostatic it'd have achieved dominance by now.

 If you look at torque vs volume curves for hydrostatics youll see that the slower you demand fluid (low swash plate tilt) the more torque they produce.  So yes, with a wack of logs its a slow winch, as it should be, when reeling in an empty cable its a fast winch.  

Load on the engine is relative to how fast you demand the flow.  So its up to the operator whether the motor is being lugged down and puffing black smoke or just running steady.  You are the governor. 


I agree the braden isnt ideal but itll give him the capability to go pull some wood.  Thats a big first step, and may be sufficient for him.  

Revelation 3:20

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #41 on: May 28, 2018, 05:01:48 AM »
All things considered, I understand that this thing is not going to be winning any races or a power monster, but Iím pretty sure I can make it achieve a happy medium for my personal use. If my tractor canít run this winch at its maximum, then itís going to give the winch a longer life. Also for the price this will be the cheapest office. A hydraulic winch is $1500, a continuous duty electric winch is well of $1000 and both of this need a better system to run. I bought 2 of these Bradenís for $260.

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #42 on: May 28, 2018, 11:16:37 AM »
Well, since the ahgu5 is prety much the same as yours. It would be sensible to find which two speed hydraulic motor they use. 

If you want more power than your Pto. 

You could fit a directly driven hydraulic pump on the crankshaft.  You Can have nearly all the power of the engine. 

And as Mike was saying, a variable flow swashplate pump could help greatly,  going over the engine power capabilities, to have a big flow at no load. The only thing to remember, lower the flow when engine stalls. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb.

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #43 on: May 28, 2018, 01:15:59 PM »
If I were to build a 3pts hitch winch I would go capstan. 540rpm pto chained to a shaft with the drum. Just make sure every thing is guarded so that the rope doesn't get into the turning shafts etc..
Jeff
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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #44 on: May 31, 2018, 02:15:53 AM »
So GigaRift, did you make a decision?  You know where you're heading? 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb.

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #45 on: May 31, 2018, 09:24:57 PM »
I would think that 8000# of pulling power would be all you wanted for your Kub. and do all you'll be asking of it. I was in the same situation (building a tractor winch) and the slow speed of a truck pto winch, and the lack of reverse forced my wallet open for a Ramsey planetary hyd winch. I always wondered how fast you could safely spin the input on the worm gear over typical truck pto speed's. (that I also don't know) :D. Mike might know or a little interweb surfing might get you the suggested rpm range on those Braden's. If I were to build I'd drive the winch through a small manual transmission for pulling speed options and reverse.

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #46 on: June 01, 2018, 09:30:01 AM »
I think im going to go with direct drive pto to start but planning on trying a few gear ratio and maybe later add a gear box of some sort. I have an old dirtbike engine, gearbox combo that i may try to add for speeds and maybe a belt drive speed system. But i just want to get it working in a crude manner and then tune it to my needs.

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #47 on: June 01, 2018, 10:02:34 AM »
What about a PTO powered hydraulic pump to run the winch? No need to use the tractor hydraulics and then you can size it to your needs.

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #48 on: June 01, 2018, 09:40:18 PM »
I have thought about that, but its far from a costly option, but at some point it might be the option to go with.

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #49 on: June 01, 2018, 10:57:08 PM »
Giga, a dirtbike gearbox will never cope with the torque. 

Best bet, would be an old manual with overdrive, from a car of 100hp at least. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb.

Offline pineywoods

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #50 on: June 02, 2018, 09:06:13 AM »
Mine's an old pto drive braden, drive it with chain drive to a hydraulic motor. Motor runs off the tractor hydraulics, reversable. Power in, power out, and freespool. Works good for me.. Go to Banjo pickers gallery and look at the home-made job he built...
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #51 on: June 12, 2018, 04:11:55 PM »
So I started fabing up the winch this weekend past. Will post some pictures in a few days. I was wondering about ordering a pto shaft with a slip clutch if it would be able to protect the tractor if I was to hit a stump or rock. I could get one that only has a shear bolt, but for the little extra I could get the slip clutch and have the protection. 

I think it would help but unsure has I have never had a pto implement.

Thanks, Nathan.

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #52 on: June 12, 2018, 07:34:53 PM »
Ok after some thinking and considering the thoughts of people here on the forum, i think i'm going to go with hydraulic. I know my tractor will be slow with the hydraulic motor. But the safety aspect, keeps me thinking. Everyone seems to think that 8000lb is enough for my tractor and after using my 3500lb electric to haul some wood this past week, i think 8000lb is more than enough. I am in the woods by myself so safety of me and the equipment is number one. Only using this for my own use and not trying to make any money using it.

So after running some number from a site i found about hydraulic motors on a motor i found available to me. I think i may be able to run around 6400lb at 33ft/min. Which if those number are somewhat correct, im find with. Could someone with a little more hydraulic knowledge correct me if im wrong. Ill post the motor and website used for calculations below.

https://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/2-2-cu-in-4-bolt-hydraulic-spool-valve-geroler-motor/A-p8489957e

Hydraulic Motor Calculations - Womack Machine Supply Company

Okay, i dont know a big lot about hydraulics so, i could be very wrong with all of this. My tractors hydraulics are 5.15gpm @ 2205psi. So the motor above is only rated for 2030psi. So is this motor unuseable? 
If so would this one work: https://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/6-2-cu-in-2-bolt-hydraulic-spool-valve-geroler-motor/A-p8490351e


Another question about hydraulics, if i did want to get more flow from my tractor could i run a hydraulic pump from a engine accessory belt and plumb into the current hydraulic system for increased flow?

Sorry for the long post, maybe none of this make any sense. Thanks, Nathan.

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #53 on: June 12, 2018, 09:51:26 PM »
Gigarift, a daft idea which popped in my little brain. Why not get another engine, a bit more powerful, and attach that to the winch. Then, you can run the winch at the proper speed. Go hydraulics if you want. Whatever you feel like. A  1000CC should be plenty, or even less. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #54 on: June 13, 2018, 12:13:22 AM »
I skid these oaks with a 300cc quad and a warn 1700lb winch on 1/4" cable.  That is an 11ft gate for scale. 








This is a 17hp kubota L175 2wd with no loader or weights.. Just chained to 3pt.  Oak tops.




This is a 2wd open diff deere 140 with 2 pine logs.. A 10' and a 12' i think. Harbor freight 2500lb dc winch.





8k smittybilt winch with 2 small maple trees, approx 30ft long



My point is dont get too worried about perfection, get something together cheap and try it out, have fun and rework as needed.  V2.0 is always better anyways.  If you cant drag it with a chain off the drawbar, there isnt much point winching it to the tractor. Raising the log butt high off the ground is the most important component.  
Revelation 3:20

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #55 on: June 13, 2018, 05:00:45 AM »
Thanks mike for the perception of size and power. I think you are right in getting it to work and then tune to the situation.

Offline Hilltop366

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #56 on: June 13, 2018, 09:55:40 AM »
Interesting thread,

Take a look at the product sheet for these smaller winches to give you an idea about ratios, line speed and power requirements.

Igland Info


I have the 390, this thing will break off a 8" spruce tree and has no trouble hauling in a couple of 20" spruce trees. When winching I usually run my 35 hp tractor just a bit above idle which gives me  a pto speed around 300rpm so the line is almost half of the rated speed and power. At that speed things a happening quick enough for me. I did add a top pulley to my winch, that makes things a lot easier winching in a log as it lifts up on the log as you are pulling but you have to be aware of the extra forces at the top of the winch when things fetch up! 

 





 

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #57 on: June 14, 2018, 07:22:20 AM »
Thanks mike for the perception of size and power. I think you are right in getting it to work and then tune to the situation.
It would probably me more useful to mention the level of strain each load put on each machine.  The quad is at 60-80% capacity on most of those stems, the green tractor at 100% and kubota around 70 ish in hilly terrain or 60 in flats.  Bobcat was at 40.  


To throw a further wrench into your spokes here.. Is what a difference a set of wheels can make.  I dont think the quad could do any two of the bigger pieces here simultaneously except maybe downhill which is always followed by uphill unfortunately.  

This is that whole pile cut up onto a trailer, and the quad can now drag it through gulleys and over dirtpiles.  On flat ground that whole pile went from impossible to a 20% load and id be wasting fuel to make a trip to the woodpile without loading up more.


On a trailer, a little tired old gutless air cooled quad can move a rick at a time.

If youre hauling firewood and the skids are long,  plan your winch out with a trailer and cable boom in mind. A deadheader with tongs is my next step.
Revelation 3:20


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