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Author Topic: 3pt Logging Winch Build  (Read 4014 times)

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Offline GigaRift

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2018, 05:21:12 PM »
Thanks for the reply and pics whatwas. Looks nice, do you run it using chain, also are you running a 1:1 ratio to the input shaft?

Offline thecfarm

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2018, 05:24:13 PM »
You only have 19hp at the drawbar? You won't be pulling alot with it anyways.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Offline GigaRift

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2018, 05:37:24 PM »
Gigarift.

I have checked high and low, winches in north america, and europe.

What i see, about braden and other military winches, modified to run on hydraulics, is, that they are too slow, or lack power.

5.15 gpm is nothing for a winch i think. Here your ratio is 21/1

So if you pull 10 tons on the lower layer, The drum looks approximately 5 inches in diameter. So that's 2.5" from the axis.

You divide your 10 tons (metric, that i know best)

That's 22000 pounds.

A foot divided by 2.5 inches, is 4.8

So 22000/ 4.8 = 4583 lb/ft.

This divided by  21. That's 218 lb/ft on the input shaft.  18.7 lb/in This is nothing for an hydraulic motor.

But you need approximately 2500 rpm, on the input shaft, to have 79cm cm/s on the lower layer.

Guys here, told me 1 to 1.2 m/s is good.

Well, re looking at it, it seems feasible. Tho, guys will certainly correct me. I must have forgotten something.


https://www.parker.com/literature/Hydraulic%20Pump%20&%20Motor/HY13-1590-010-High-Speed.pdf
So, if i ran it off the pto at 1:1 540 rpm. Starting in reverse with your calculations.
540/21 = 25.7 drum rpm
With a circumference of 15.7 on the inner layer 
25.7*15.7 = 403.5 in per min == 33.6 ft/min
Now at 540 rpm at 19hp at the pto, i have 184.8 ft/lb.

184.8*21 = 3880.8 ft/lb to the drum axis

3880.8*4.8 = 18627.8 line pull on the inner layer

So if my calculations are right, which there is a good chance i missed something. I should be able to get 18627.8lb at 33.6ft/min, which i would be satisfied with.

Online Satamax

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2018, 05:37:41 PM »
Nathan, 19HP seems awfully low, for this type of winch. 

540 is no good either. What you need is engine speed PTO. Isn't there one on your tractor? 

By the way, which make and model is it? 

I've been through this for a year or so. Thankfully, i have engine speed PTO. And full power on the PTO, 125 din HP. Or thereabouts. The limiting factor, in the power transmission, for me, is the shaft couplers. Limits the force to 70HP. And i got lucky in picking up the tractor. 

I think, if you can ditch the bradens, cleaned up, and with new bearings etc. For some money. Best option would be to buy a real tractor winch, which suits your tractor. 

Or another completely mad option.  Fit a gen set on your crankshaft. And power your winch with a three phase motor. I would advise to get an european 1500rpm 50hz, three phase generator. And a 2800 rpm motor. 

this way, you would have high torque. Remoteability, reversability. You could manage half of your engine power, may be more. 

But that's for the mad option! :D 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb.

Online Satamax

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2018, 05:45:37 PM »
Sorry Nathan. You posted at the same time as me. 

Well, 33ft, or 10 meters per minute, seems awfully slow. 

Well, you could use a doubler, or tripler, at the expense of the torque. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb.

Offline J 5

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #25 on: May 27, 2018, 05:50:15 PM »
SSidenote, how bad do those J5s wheelie with rear engine?  Whats the avatar pic with a loader on it?  
            To big a log the rear boogie will shove the track crossers into the fenders, so usually have to use a snatchblock low on the machine. Avatar pic , Bombardier Muskeg ( big brother to the J5 )

Offline J 5

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #26 on: May 27, 2018, 05:53:15 PM »
   Lucky find on the 2 Braden's , if you remove the front cover on the input shaft there is a brake band to hold the load in neutral. I would remove it and go with a hydraulic motor chain driven, you can play with the ratio and get the right speed /verses power to suit your needs.
What parts do I need to remove on that side. Just the brake pad or the keyed drum and all?
What thinking all of it but not sure if it would cause a balance issue with the shaft?
 Just remove the band ,they are usually caked with grease  and sometimes the adjustment bolt  is broke off the band.

Offline GigaRift

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2018, 06:15:17 PM »
The tractor produces 19hp at the pto at 540 pto rpm at 2105 engine rpm. Its a Kubota L2501.

Offline GigaRift

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #28 on: May 27, 2018, 06:31:41 PM »
Just a thought, but could i feed the worm from the pto using a v belt and have a hand tensioner/engagement. Then if it became snagged, i could release the engagement and loosen the break band nut on the worm to release the drum? and then release the dog clutch?

I would not think this would be a regular thing but just in the case of a snagged log. Also i have no intentions of backing into anything solid like a stump, tree or rock.

Also what would be the pros and cons of using a v belt vs chain? Could set up different gearing like a drill press with the belt? 

Offline GigaRift

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #29 on: May 27, 2018, 06:49:38 PM »
Sorry Nathan. You posted at the same time as me.

Well, 33ft, or 10 meters per minute, seems awfully slow.

Well, you could use a doubler, or tripler, at the expense of the torque.
It might seem slow but im only having 150 or so of cable. So 5 min max to pull in the entire length, which at most times it will not be out the entire length. Also i think you might be under the assumption that im logging for money. But im mainly using it to get logs at times but mostly firewood. We have a lot of hills, so the winch is to get them up to the road mainly.
So a 8 to 12in bottom at 20 to 30 feet. So if the winch could haul 3 at a time which according to log calculator for black spruce or balsam fir is approx 500 lb log times 3.
I could understand where this seems slow for commercial logging but this is not the case.
Do you think my calculation on the winch pulling 18500lb at 540 pto are correct or way off?
Sorry if there is some misunderstanding here on my part.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #30 on: May 27, 2018, 06:51:36 PM »
A small manual car transmission would give you reverse and plenty of line speed options.  Weld a 6spline coupler to a torched out clutch center hub, and a sprocket or belt sheave onto the output yoke then mate it to the winch.

A belts virtue is that it can be a clutch.. You can adjust it to slip rather than break a pto or flip the tractor.  Weakness is the hp limitation.  The chain and sprocket has no option to slip and will transfer a lot more power given the same packaging size.  Either is perfectly happy to take your fingers off of coarse.



A braden 20T winch is for pulling 6x6 trucks out of the mud.  Realistically, i think your tractor isnt gonna be able to pull by tire engagement any more than an 8 or 10k electric truck winch will reel in.  My bobcat 742 with an 8k smittybilt winch can reel in twice what it can then motor around with. Its fine on very short retrievals, i winch in, then spool out and reposition around whatever obstacle, then winch to me again, repeat. 
Revelation 3:20

Offline GigaRift

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #31 on: May 27, 2018, 07:03:28 PM »
A small manual car transmission would give you reverse and plenty of line speed options.  Weld a 6spline coupler to a torched out clutch center hub, and a sprocket or belt sheave onto the output yoke then mate it to the winch.

A belts virtue is that it can be a clutch.. You can adjust it to slip rather than break a pto or flip the tractor.  Weakness is the hp limitation.  The chain and sprocket has no option to slip and will transfer a lot more power given the same packaging size.  Either is perfectly happy to take your fingers off of coarse.



A braden 20T winch is for pulling 6x6 trucks out of the mud.  Realistically, i think your tractor isnt gonna be able to pull by tire engagement any more than an 8 or 10k electric truck winch will reel in.  My bobcat 742 with an 8k smittybilt winch can reel in twice what it can then motor around with. Its fine on very short retrievals, i winch in, then spool out and reposition around whatever obstacle, then winch to me again, repeat.
Thanks mike, if you can pull you weight with a 8000lb electric, then i can understand completely where i dont need 20000lb pulling strength. This is where i can loose pulling strength for speed, but at the same time i don't want to much speed for the safety of me and the tractor. I did think about electric but it is a much more expensive option, they don't have a very good duty cycle without paying a lot, while you need a good electrical system to run it continuously aswell.
As for the transmission idea, i think its good but i think if i play around a little with ratio that i should be able to get a good mix of pull and speed for my needs.
Thanks.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #32 on: May 27, 2018, 07:14:23 PM »
One virtue i could see to belts would be using a 3 or 4 step matched pulley set from a drill press, with a lawn mower tensioner so you can change them pretty fast.  Taking that thought a step further would be a variable speed drive belt pilfered off a junk quad or sled.  Old bobcat 400-600 series used a hydraulic variable sheave to create a high and low range travel control. 


The thing about line speed is one speed is never right.  Its too fast or too slow.  Or too compromised.  
Revelation 3:20

Offline GigaRift

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #33 on: May 27, 2018, 07:17:33 PM »
One virtue i could see to belts would be using a 3 or 4 step matched pulley set from a drill press, with a lawn mower tensioner so you can change them pretty fast.  Taking that thought a step further would be a variable speed drive belt pilfered off a junk quad or sled.  Old bobcat 400-600 series used a hydraulic variable sheave to create a high and low range travel control.


The thing about line speed is one speed is never right.  Its too fast or too slow.  Or too compromised.  
The drill press idea was exactly what i was thinking but not sure if that size belt would be able to handle the hp.

Offline whatwas

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #34 on: May 27, 2018, 07:54:23 PM »
GigaRift
Mine runs a 28 tooth drive and a 20 tooth driven #60 chain, too fast  some times and to slow some times. I had a long winded post with more info but lost it cause puters hate me and I hate them.
This winch is more than I require but better then the alternative. It may not work for you but it makes my ole tired dexta tractor a useful tool. It doesn't care if its pulling a log out or pulling your tractor back , it just pulls. 

life is good

Offline GigaRift

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #35 on: May 27, 2018, 08:03:12 PM »
GigaRift
Mine runs a 28 tooth drive and a 20 tooth driven #60 chain, too fast  some times and to slow some times. I had a long winded post with more info but lost it cause puters hate me and I hate them.
This winch is more than I require but better then the alternative. It may not work for you but it makes my ole tired dexta tractor a useful tool. It doesn't care if its pulling a log out or pulling your tractor back , it just pulls.
So your actually slowing down your pto speed, is it 540 or 1000 pto? Also what is the specs on your tractor? 

Offline whatwas

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #36 on: May 27, 2018, 08:46:50 PM »
Pto shaft sprocket (drive) is larger, winch shaft sprocket( driven) is smaller That speeds winch shaft up. 
life is good

Offline GigaRift

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #37 on: May 27, 2018, 08:52:12 PM »
Pto shaft sprocket (drive) is larger, winch shaft sprocket( driven) is smaller That speeds winch shaft up.
Yes, thatís correct. 

Offline mike_belben

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #38 on: May 27, 2018, 10:00:52 PM »


The design charts.. If im reading correctly, show that a single "B" belt at 1000 rpm can transmit a max of about 20hp.  @540 it'd be about 14 HP or so.  Thats assuming good sheaves and a full wrap, proper tension, sufficient min radius etc etc.
Sled torque convertors these days handle 90, 100 horse and up.



Far as i am concerned a true hydrostatic winch drive would be the cats meow. 
Revelation 3:20

Online Satamax

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Re: 3pt Logging Winch Build
« Reply #39 on: May 28, 2018, 01:21:39 AM »


The design charts.. If im reading correctly, show that a single "B" belt at 1000 rpm can transmit a max of about 20hp.  @540 it'd be about 14 HP or so.  Thats assuming good sheaves and a full wrap, proper tension, sufficient min radius etc etc.
Sled torque convertors these days handle 90, 100 horse and up.



Far as i am concerned a true hydrostatic winch drive would be the cats meow.
Mike, hydrostatic needs power and volume! I think, the true solution, is not to use a braden in the first place for this. Since the gearing down of worm and gear needs high speed, ish. Better to start with a track motor, like most hydraulic winches do nowadays. 
For you guys, who can read french, sortof. There is a very good graph, in paragraph 2. About pulley power transmission.  
I - Transmissions par poulies et courroies
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb.


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