3pt Logging Winch Build

[GigaRift]

So, I'm new to the forum but have done a bit of reading on building a 3pt Skidder plate and winch for my Kubota L2501.

I live in Newfoundland, Canada so the biggest logs I will come across in my area are 20" in the butt.

So I came across what seems to be a couple of Braden 20 000 lb pto winches. They have a dog clutch with worm drive and freespool.

So I was thinking of running it off the pto but after some research here on the forum, I understand that you can't unload the winch if it becomes snagged. So I could go hydraulic but am unsure of motor specs and the tractors ability to run it hydraulic. Also I ran the winch over with my cordless drill and it runs fine but it won't run it backwards. If it can't be ran backwards there's no point to go hydraulic.

So I'm thinking because it's work drive that it can't runs backwards? 
Or does the cordless drill not generate torque to change direction?

 

 

  

Any help or suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks, Nathan.

[mike_belben]

It looks like a worm gear winch to me, and if so will power in and out.  Pull that npt oil plug ontop and shine a flashlight down inside, see what kinda gear is in there.

[GigaRift]

They are worm drive. Found them outside at a scrapyard, there were 2. So I came home with 2. Started to take one apart. Want to clean it up and paint it up, also the oil has turned to gunk. Hopefully I can finish cleaning it up tomorrow. 

If i can get power in and out maybe I will consider hydraulic, so my tractor has 5.15 gpm @ 2205 psi and 3 or 4 gpm for power steering which won't be in use. Not sure if the systems are connected. Is that sufficient to run a hydraulic motor on the winch? 

The only hydraulic remote I have is a front third function valve. So I could run hoses to the rear and just swap out the hoses. It's a electronic valve as well, so I could run it from a wireless remote and that would make it much safer.

 

 

 

 

 

      

[mike_belben]

Youll get a lot more speed and power off your pto shaft i think.  Can you run a vee belt and a idler pulley to couple the pto to the winch input?  This would allow you to back off the cable by hand enough to release the dog clutch and drive out in freewheel. 

 I mean how often do you really wedge the tractor AND the log?  

[GigaRift]

I don't know if I would ever get the tractor wedged, as I have no intentions of ever backing up into anything. I'm going to have a blade to dig into the ground, so I kind of thought that maybe I could just lift the plate and back up. Could this work?

I think I under stand what your saying with v belt but I was planning on using chain. If I use v belt I what have to make a second handle to engage power from the pto to the winch. Also I wasn't sure how much power could be transfer using the belt using hand engagement.

[J 5]

    Lucky find on the 2 Braden's , if you remove the front cover on the input shaft there is a brake band to hold the load in neutral. I would remove it and go with a hydraulic motor chain driven, you can play with the ratio and get the right speed /verses power to suit your needs. I put one of these on my 2nd J5 , works great, a mechanical driven winch is usually more powerful , but a live hyd winch is easier to work with, just my opinion.
                                            J 5

 

[GigaRift]

Thanks as I was taking the winch apart yesterday I saw the brake your taking about and didn't realize what it was. But now it's clear. I would like to go hydraulic so I could setup a wireless remote to my 3rd function valve. I'm not sure what what size or type of hydraulic motor I would need?

[thecfarm]

GigaRift,welcome to the forum.
Good idea on the blade,that really can dig in. Do not winch in at a sharp angle. That winch can tip the tractor over if the log gets hung up on something. Set your bakes and put the loader down each time you are winching.
I have 6 slides on my winch. Sometimes all six are used,sometimes only one. Depends on the size of the trees. I have 8 foot chains on my winch.Norse made hangers on the side of the safety cage to hung them. Than there is boxes on each side to put the excess chains in,to keep them from dragging on the ground.I would also suggest some 4 foot chains. Those come in handy for the small stuff.
I have no idea how you will make the winch turn on. Mine a rope is used,6 feet long,gets me away from the tractor. Watch the slash coming towards you as you are winch in.
Learn how to hook your chain low so the log will roll. Meaning what was touching the ground will be on top. Comes in handy to see how many limbs you missed too. 
A 3pt winch is nice to have.
I burn wood so use alot of my limb wood. But what I do leave in the woods is cut into short pieces,I try for no longer than 2 feet. I run my saw up and down the limbs on the soft wood. Even the ones as big around as my finger I cut short. This helps if I have to go in that same spot. Kinda hard for a 2 foot long piece of brush to damage the tractor.Rots quicker too. Yes,it takes time,but makes it easier and safer for me and my tractor.

[Satamax]

Gigarift. 

I have checked high and low, winches in north america, and europe. 

What i see, about braden and other military winches, modified to run on hydraulics, is, that they are too slow, or lack power. 

5.15 gpm is nothing for a winch i think. Here your ratio is 21/1 

So if you pull 10 tons on the lower layer, The drum looks approximately 5 inches in diameter. So that's 2.5" from the axis. 

You divide your 10 tons (metric, that i know best) 

That's 22000 pounds. 

A foot divided by 2.5 inches, is 4.8

So 22000/ 4.8 = 4583 lb/ft. 

This divided by  21. That's 218 lb/ft on the input shaft.  18.7 lb/in This is nothing for an hydraulic motor. 

But you need approximately 2500 rpm, on the input shaft, to have 79cm cm/s on the lower layer. 

Guys here, told me 1 to 1.2 m/s is good. 

Well, re looking at it, it seems feasible. Tho, guys will certainly correct me. I must have forgotten something. 


https://www.parker.com/literature/Hydraulic%20Pump%20&%20Motor/HY13-1590-010-High-Speed.pdf

[DMcCoy]

Nice score!  I bought a Braden off of CL and did the same thing you are doing.  Mine came off a wrecker and included a 2 speed gear box. I ran mine hydraulic with a used motor I had lying around, so I never sized it, but it works fine.  Like you I wanted the reverse and I think it's important for how I use mine where I need the ability to let off and change the angle of the pull.  When I am geared down and still hit the hyd. bypass then it is time for a snatch block.  I really wouldn't want it without a reverse the more I think about it, not everything gives easily when you are pulling.

My only negative comment about hydraulic is that your line speed is regulated by engine RPM, but so would PTO.  I find it annoying to have the tractor revved up when all I am doing is getting the line back on the spool.

You could size your motor by line speed, that is what I would do.  I would look up specs on a few electric winches to get a reasonable line speed and then do the math to get the hydraulic motor RPM and size it for full flow of your tractors hydraulic system at that RPM.  Make adjustments with chain and sprockets if you need to, you can pretty easily get 1/2 or 2x by using different sizes of sprockets. I believe my came with #80 chain and that is what I continued with.   Line speed is obviously changes depending on what layer you are on but it's the only way I can think of to get it set up.  Pick a layer on your spool, maybe the middle layer and work you way backwards.

My 2 cents.
Edit, My post looks out of place, while I was typing the above 2 came in.

[GigaRift]

5.15 gpm is nothing for a winch i think. Here your ratio is 21/1

So if you pull 10 tons on the lower layer, The drum looks approximately 5 inches in diameter. So that's 2.5" from the axis.

You divide your 10 tons (metric, that i know best)

That's 22000 pounds.

A foot divided by 2.5 inches, is 4.8

So 22000/ 4.8 = 4583 lb/ft.

This divided by  21. That's 218 lb/ft on the input shaft.  18.7 lb/in This is nothing for an hydraulic motor.

But you need approximately 2500 rpm, on the input shaft, to have 79cm cm/s on the lower layer.

Guys here, told me 1 to 1.2 m/s is good.

Not really understanding how you got from 218 ft/lb to 18.7 in/lb. Which one of these would my hydraulic motor need to have?
If its 18.7 in/lb then i have found a motor and a hydraulic calculator that says my tractor could run this motor at 540 rpm at 700 in/lb. Now the motor is only rated for 638 in/lb and 2030psi. While my tractor runs at 2205 at max. So i am thinking that this motor would work if i gear it up for speed but not sure how you made these calcuations. Right now i have a 15 tooth chain sprocket that came on the winch.
Also im not sure if it would need it to be that fast, i could settle for less speed. 79 cm/s thats roughly 2.5 ft/s. If i had to i could settle for less.
Hydraulic Motor
Hydraulic Calculator

I may be way off base here, as i am not well educated in hydraulics. I'm a electrician, so i have basic understandings of energy and force flows.

Thanks, Nathan

[mike_belben]

if you want remote control itll have to be hydraulic.  My best advice is to find a variable displacement hydraulic motor.  Itll be a piston pump with a swash plate and a manual lever sticking out the side.  This will give you faster and slower line speed.

Tenant sweepers used them for variable speed either fan or brush, i cant recall.  My old walk beside trencher uses a big vari speed motor to switch from travel to work speed.  This will give you a snail vs not snail line speed.  

[mike_belben]

SSidenote, how bad do those J5s wheelie with rear engine?  Whats the avatar pic with a loader on it?  

[GigaRift]

   Lucky find on the 2 Braden's , if you remove the front cover on the input shaft there is a brake band to hold the load in neutral. I would remove it and go with a hydraulic motor chain driven, you can play with the ratio and get the right speed /verses power to suit your needs.

What parts do I need to remove on that side. Just the brake pad or the keyed drum and all? 
What thinking all of it but not sure if it would cause a balance issue with the shaft?

[GigaRift]

if you want remote control itll have to be hydraulic.  My best advice is to find a variable displacement hydraulic motor.  Itll be a piston pump with a swash plate and a manual lever sticking out the side.  This will give you faster and slower line speed.

Tenant sweepers used them for variable speed either fan or brush, i cant recall.  My old walk beside trencher uses a big vari speed motor to switch from travel to work speed.  This will give you a snail vs not snail line speed.  

Good suggestion but i doubt I can find anything like that here or even online that would be willing to ship here. Princess auto is probably the best online source for me or amazon.ca. After looking at the numbers, I really think that the motor I found on princess auto will work by gearing up by 1/2 or 3/4 the ratio. But, i may be completely wrong. 

[Satamax]

5.15 gpm is nothing for a winch i think. Here your ratio is 21/1

So if you pull 10 tons on the lower layer, The drum looks approximately 5 inches in diameter. So that's 2.5" from the axis.

You divide your 10 tons (metric, that i know best)

That's 22000 pounds.

A foot divided by 2.5 inches, is 4.8

So 22000/ 4.8 = 4583 lb/ft.

This divided by  21. That's 218 lb/ft on the input shaft.  18.7 lb/in This is nothing for an hydraulic motor.

But you need approximately 2500 rpm, on the input shaft, to have 79cm cm/s on the lower layer.

Guys here, told me 1 to 1.2 m/s is good.

Not really understanding how you got from 218 ft/lb to 18.7 in/lb. Which one of these would my hydraulic motor need to have?
If its 18.7 in/lb 
Thanks, Nathan

Nathan, careful, i'm french so those units are alien to me. Pretty much. 
I might have reversed the two of FT and LB. 

Basically, to turn this winch,(remember i made approximation on the drum size)  at ten metric tons on the first layer. you need a torque of 4583 pounds per foot. Or if you prefer, at one foot from the axis. 
Then you divide this number by the worm and gear ratio. Which from your photos, seems to be 21 to 1. 
So, that's 218 pounds, at one foot. 
And, now i see it, this is where i made the mistake. This number i should have multiplied by 12, as there is 12 inches per foot. And not divided by 12!  But i might be off again!
So that's 2616 pounds at one inch. My mistake. Seems far less feasible now! 
The highest torque from the parker motors above, is 1750 lb/in
May be some of the OMT danfoss can do this torque. But not the speed! 
A DMcCoy said, find yourself a gearbox. It will be way simpler. Tho, you still have to check for the torque! 

[DMcCoy]

I left my brake plates in and set them loose, it works ok. 

What I see you wondering about is tons of pulling power.  Without re reading the whole thread I think is was Santamax that mentioned hydraulic winches are 'usually' either underpowered or too slow.

There is a trade off.  Your tractor hydraulic HP is the limiting factor.  Then it becomes a decision with which is most important.  Having a winch capable of 20,000 lbs is great.  Having to hang onto a winch line for 1/2 hr to respool the line sucks.   Try and figure your average real need for winching, not your max.  Is it really 20,000 lbs or more like 8,000lbs.  If you set it up for your average then your line speed will be about as good (fast) as you can get it.  For the super heavy stuff a good snatch block will double your power and halve your speed. 

[GigaRift]

You are correct on the drum size. It is 5" inside diameter and 14" outside. The worm gear ratio is 21:1. DMcCoy, i understand what you are saying with my actual need for 20 000lb capacity. But i am unsure of how much i would actually need as i have never pulled logs or wood with winch before. So i will try to play with some numbers and see if i can get a capacity and speed that my suit my needs if not i guess ill run it pto.

If i did go with the pto with 19 hp at the pto would that be capable of pulling the 20 000lb and possibly use some gearing up to get high that 540 to the input?

[Satamax]

DMcCoy, you're forgetting a part in the equation, the calculation i did, is for the first layer, where the pull is at it's maximum. 

[whatwas]

I have used a Braden winch for 30+ years powered by PTO. If you get it snuffed up than just back it off by spinning the PTO shaft backwards, if you really snuff er' than a small bar threaded through the "u" joint is required.
Just don't put the base blade against something solid like a stump or a big rock and 9 times outta 10 you can back up enough to release the dog.
I would suggest making the cable the "weak link" because you can get in bad trouble real quick if the log gets jammed, that winch will put you in a position where you may have to throw your nickers away.


 You can see by the welds ,I've had to decapitate it twice, once to replace the bronze gear and once to remove the internal brake band, I use a cable operated disc brake caliper (snowmobile) to slow the drum and not make a birds nest when you release the dog.
Good luck (

 

[GigaRift]

Thanks for the reply and pics whatwas. Looks nice, do you run it using chain, also are you running a 1:1 ratio to the input shaft?

[thecfarm]

You only have 19hp at the drawbar? You won't be pulling alot with it anyways.

[GigaRift]

Gigarift.

I have checked high and low, winches in north america, and europe.

What i see, about braden and other military winches, modified to run on hydraulics, is, that they are too slow, or lack power.

5.15 gpm is nothing for a winch i think. Here your ratio is 21/1

So if you pull 10 tons on the lower layer, The drum looks approximately 5 inches in diameter. So that's 2.5" from the axis.

You divide your 10 tons (metric, that i know best)

That's 22000 pounds.

A foot divided by 2.5 inches, is 4.8

So 22000/ 4.8 = 4583 lb/ft.

This divided by  21. That's 218 lb/ft on the input shaft.  18.7 lb/in This is nothing for an hydraulic motor.

But you need approximately 2500 rpm, on the input shaft, to have 79cm cm/s on the lower layer.

Guys here, told me 1 to 1.2 m/s is good.

Well, re looking at it, it seems feasible. Tho, guys will certainly correct me. I must have forgotten something.


https://www.parker.com/literature/Hydraulic%20Pump%20&%20Motor/HY13-1590-010-High-Speed.pdf

So, if i ran it off the pto at 1:1 540 rpm. Starting in reverse with your calculations.
540/21 = 25.7 drum rpm
With a circumference of 15.7 on the inner layer 
25.7*15.7 = 403.5 in per min == 33.6 ft/min
Now at 540 rpm at 19hp at the pto, i have 184.8 ft/lb.

184.8*21 = 3880.8 ft/lb to the drum axis

3880.8*4.8 = 18627.8 line pull on the inner layer

So if my calculations are right, which there is a good chance i missed something. I should be able to get 18627.8lb at 33.6ft/min, which i would be satisfied with.

[Satamax]

Nathan, 19HP seems awfully low, for this type of winch. 

540 is no good either. What you need is engine speed PTO. Isn't there one on your tractor? 

By the way, which make and model is it? 

I've been through this for a year or so. Thankfully, i have engine speed PTO. And full power on the PTO, 125 din HP. Or thereabouts. The limiting factor, in the power transmission, for me, is the shaft couplers. Limits the force to 70HP. And i got lucky in picking up the tractor. 

I think, if you can ditch the bradens, cleaned up, and with new bearings etc. For some money. Best option would be to buy a real tractor winch, which suits your tractor. 

Or another completely mad option.  Fit a gen set on your crankshaft. And power your winch with a three phase motor. I would advise to get an european 1500rpm 50hz, three phase generator. And a 2800 rpm motor. 

this way, you would have high torque. Remoteability, reversability. You could manage half of your engine power, may be more. 

But that's for the mad option! :D 

[Satamax]

Sorry Nathan. You posted at the same time as me. 

Well, 33ft, or 10 meters per minute, seems awfully slow. 

Well, you could use a doubler, or tripler, at the expense of the torque.