3pt Logging Winch Build

J 5 · May 27, 2018, 05:50:15 PM

Quote from: mike_belben on May 27, 2018, 09:59:35 AM
SSidenote, how bad do those J5s wheelie with rear engine? Whats the avatar pic with a loader on it?

To big a log the rear boogie will shove the track crossers into the fenders, so usually have to use a snatchblock low on the machine. Avatar pic , Bombardier Muskeg ( big brother to the J5 )

J 5 · May 27, 2018, 05:53:15 PM

Quote from: GigaRift on May 27, 2018, 10:36:36 AM
Quote from: J 5 on May 27, 2018, 06:43:36 AM
Lucky find on the 2 Braden's , if you remove the front cover on the input shaft there is a brake band to hold the load in neutral. I would remove it and go with a hydraulic motor chain driven, you can play with the ratio and get the right speed /verses power to suit your needs.
What parts do I need to remove on that side. Just the brake pad or the keyed drum and all?
What thinking all of it but not sure if it would cause a balance issue with the shaft?

Just remove the band ,they are usually caked with grease and sometimes the adjustment bolt is broke off the band.

GigaRift · May 27, 2018, 06:15:17 PM

The tractor produces 19hp at the pto at 540 pto rpm at 2105 engine rpm. Its a Kubota L2501.

GigaRift · May 27, 2018, 06:31:41 PM

Just a thought, but could i feed the worm from the pto using a v belt and have a hand tensioner/engagement. Then if it became snagged, i could release the engagement and loosen the break band nut on the worm to release the drum? and then release the dog clutch?

I would not think this would be a regular thing but just in the case of a snagged log. Also i have no intentions of backing into anything solid like a stump, tree or rock.

Also what would be the pros and cons of using a v belt vs chain? Could set up different gearing like a drill press with the belt?

GigaRift · May 27, 2018, 06:49:38 PM

Quote from: Satamax on May 27, 2018, 05:45:37 PM
Sorry Nathan. You posted at the same time as me.

Well, 33ft, or 10 meters per minute, seems awfully slow.

Well, you could use a doubler, or tripler, at the expense of the torque.

It might seem slow but im only having 150 or so of cable. So 5 min max to pull in the entire length, which at most times it will not be out the entire length. Also i think you might be under the assumption that im logging for money. But im mainly using it to get logs at times but mostly firewood. We have a lot of hills, so the winch is to get them up to the road mainly.
So a 8 to 12in bottom at 20 to 30 feet. So if the winch could haul 3 at a time which according to log calculator for black spruce or balsam fir is approx 500 lb log times 3.
I could understand where this seems slow for commercial logging but this is not the case.
Do you think my calculation on the winch pulling 18500lb at 540 pto are correct or way off?
Sorry if there is some misunderstanding here on my part.

mike_belben · May 27, 2018, 06:51:36 PM

A small manual car transmission would give you reverse and plenty of line speed options. Weld a 6spline coupler to a torched out clutch center hub, and a sprocket or belt sheave onto the output yoke then mate it to the winch.

A belts virtue is that it can be a clutch.. You can adjust it to slip rather than break a pto or flip the tractor. Weakness is the hp limitation. The chain and sprocket has no option to slip and will transfer a lot more power given the same packaging size. Either is perfectly happy to take your fingers off of coarse.

A braden 20T winch is for pulling 6x6 trucks out of the mud. Realistically, i think your tractor isnt gonna be able to pull by tire engagement any more than an 8 or 10k electric truck winch will reel in. My bobcat 742 with an 8k smittybilt winch can reel in twice what it can then motor around with. Its fine on very short retrievals, i winch in, then spool out and reposition around whatever obstacle, then winch to me again, repeat.

GigaRift · May 27, 2018, 07:03:28 PM

Quote from: mike_belben on May 27, 2018, 06:51:36 PM
A small manual car transmission would give you reverse and plenty of line speed options. Weld a 6spline coupler to a torched out clutch center hub, and a sprocket or belt sheave onto the output yoke then mate it to the winch.

A belts virtue is that it can be a clutch.. You can adjust it to slip rather than break a pto or flip the tractor. Weakness is the hp limitation. The chain and sprocket has no option to slip and will transfer a lot more power given the same packaging size. Either is perfectly happy to take your fingers off of coarse.

A braden 20T winch is for pulling 6x6 trucks out of the mud. Realistically, i think your tractor isnt gonna be able to pull by tire engagement any more than an 8 or 10k electric truck winch will reel in. My bobcat 742 with an 8k smittybilt winch can reel in twice what it can then motor around with. Its fine on very short retrievals, i winch in, then spool out and reposition around whatever obstacle, then winch to me again, repeat.

Thanks mike, if you can pull you weight with a 8000lb electric, then i can understand completely where i dont need 20000lb pulling strength. This is where i can loose pulling strength for speed, but at the same time i don't want to much speed for the safety of me and the tractor. I did think about electric but it is a much more expensive option, they don't have a very good duty cycle without paying a lot, while you need a good electrical system to run it continuously aswell.
As for the transmission idea, i think its good but i think if i play around a little with ratio that i should be able to get a good mix of pull and speed for my needs.
Thanks.

mike_belben · May 27, 2018, 07:14:23 PM

One virtue i could see to belts would be using a 3 or 4 step matched pulley set from a drill press, with a lawn mower tensioner so you can change them pretty fast. Taking that thought a step further would be a variable speed drive belt pilfered off a junk quad or sled. Old bobcat 400-600 series used a hydraulic variable sheave to create a high and low range travel control.

The thing about line speed is one speed is never right. Its too fast or too slow. Or too compromised.

GigaRift · May 27, 2018, 07:17:33 PM

Quote from: mike_belben on May 27, 2018, 07:14:23 PM
One virtue i could see to belts would be using a 3 or 4 step matched pulley set from a drill press, with a lawn mower tensioner so you can change them pretty fast. Taking that thought a step further would be a variable speed drive belt pilfered off a junk quad or sled. Old bobcat 400-600 series used a hydraulic variable sheave to create a high and low range travel control.

The thing about line speed is one speed is never right. Its too fast or too slow. Or too compromised.

The drill press idea was exactly what i was thinking but not sure if that size belt would be able to handle the hp.

whatwas · May 27, 2018, 07:54:23 PM

GigaRift
Mine runs a 28 tooth drive and a 20 tooth driven #60 chain, too fast some times and to slow some times. I had a long winded post with more info but lost it cause puters hate me and I hate them.
This winch is more than I require but better then the alternative. It may not work for you but it makes my ole tired dexta tractor a useful tool. It doesn't care if its pulling a log out or pulling your tractor back , it just pulls.

GigaRift · May 27, 2018, 08:03:12 PM

Quote from: whatwas on May 27, 2018, 07:54:23 PM
GigaRift
Mine runs a 28 tooth drive and a 20 tooth driven #60 chain, too fast some times and to slow some times. I had a long winded post with more info but lost it cause puters hate me and I hate them.
This winch is more than I require but better then the alternative. It may not work for you but it makes my ole tired dexta tractor a useful tool. It doesn't care if its pulling a log out or pulling your tractor back , it just pulls.

So your actually slowing down your pto speed, is it 540 or 1000 pto? Also what is the specs on your tractor?

whatwas · May 27, 2018, 08:46:50 PM

Pto shaft sprocket (drive) is larger, winch shaft sprocket( driven) is smaller That speeds winch shaft up.

GigaRift · May 27, 2018, 08:52:12 PM

Quote from: whatwas on May 27, 2018, 08:46:50 PM
Pto shaft sprocket (drive) is larger, winch shaft sprocket( driven) is smaller That speeds winch shaft up.

Yes, that's correct.

mike_belben · May 27, 2018, 10:00:52 PM

The design charts.. If im reading correctly, show that a single "B" belt at 1000 rpm can transmit a max of about 20hp. @540 it'd be about 14 HP or so. Thats assuming good sheaves and a full wrap, proper tension, sufficient min radius etc etc.
Sled torque convertors these days handle 90, 100 horse and up.

Far as i am concerned a true hydrostatic winch drive would be the cats meow.

Satamax · May 28, 2018, 01:21:39 AM

Quote from: mike_belben on May 27, 2018, 10:00:52 PM

The design charts.. If im reading correctly, show that a single "B" belt at 1000 rpm can transmit a max of about 20hp. @540 it'd be about 14 HP or so. Thats assuming good sheaves and a full wrap, proper tension, sufficient min radius etc etc.
Sled torque convertors these days handle 90, 100 horse and up.

Far as i am concerned a true hydrostatic winch drive would be the cats meow.

Mike, hydrostatic needs power and volume! I think, the true solution, is not to use a braden in the first place for this. Since the gearing down of worm and gear needs high speed, ish. Better to start with a track motor, like most hydraulic winches do nowadays.
For you guys, who can read french, sortof. There is a very good graph, in paragraph 2. About pulley power transmission.
I - Transmissions par poulies et courroies

mike_belben · May 28, 2018, 02:10:17 AM

All things in proportion. A hydrostatic system sized for his engine output and chassis weight would work very well. Just like, well, like skidsteers and lawnmowers work very well. If there was something better than hydrostatic it'd have achieved dominance by now.

If you look at torque vs volume curves for hydrostatics youll see that the slower you demand fluid (low swash plate tilt) the more torque they produce. So yes, with a wack of logs its a slow winch, as it should be, when reeling in an empty cable its a fast winch.

Load on the engine is relative to how fast you demand the flow. So its up to the operator whether the motor is being lugged down and puffing black smoke or just running steady. You are the governor.

I agree the braden isnt ideal but itll give him the capability to go pull some wood. Thats a big first step, and may be sufficient for him.

GigaRift · May 28, 2018, 05:01:48 AM

All things considered, I understand that this thing is not going to be winning any races or a power monster, but I'm pretty sure I can make it achieve a happy medium for my personal use. If my tractor can't run this winch at its maximum, then it's going to give the winch a longer life. Also for the price this will be the cheapest office. A hydraulic winch is $1500, a continuous duty electric winch is well of $1000 and both of this need a better system to run. I bought 2 of these Braden's for $260.

Satamax · May 28, 2018, 11:16:37 AM

Well, since the ahgu5 is prety much the same as yours. It would be sensible to find which two speed hydraulic motor they use.

If you want more power than your Pto.

You could fit a directly driven hydraulic pump on the crankshaft. You Can have nearly all the power of the engine.

And as Mike was saying, a variable flow swashplate pump could help greatly, going over the engine power capabilities, to have a big flow at no load. The only thing to remember, lower the flow when engine stalls.

Puffergas · May 28, 2018, 01:15:59 PM

If I were to build a 3pts hitch winch I would go capstan. 540rpm pto chained to a shaft with the drum. Just make sure every thing is guarded so that the rope doesn't get into the turning shafts etc..

Satamax · May 31, 2018, 02:15:53 AM

So GigaRift, did you make a decision? You know where you're heading?

711ac · May 31, 2018, 09:24:57 PM

I would think that 8000# of pulling power would be all you wanted for your Kub. and do all you'll be asking of it. I was in the same situation (building a tractor winch) and the slow speed of a truck pto winch, and the lack of reverse forced my wallet open for a Ramsey planetary hyd winch. I always wondered how fast you could safely spin the input on the worm gear over typical truck pto speed's. (that I also don't know) :D. Mike might know or a little interweb surfing might get you the suggested rpm range on those Braden's. If I were to build I'd drive the winch through a small manual transmission for pulling speed options and reverse.

GigaRift · June 01, 2018, 09:30:01 AM

I think im going to go with direct drive pto to start but planning on trying a few gear ratio and maybe later add a gear box of some sort. I have an old dirtbike engine, gearbox combo that i may try to add for speeds and maybe a belt drive speed system. But i just want to get it working in a crude manner and then tune it to my needs.