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Author Topic: logging estimates  (Read 718 times)

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Offline cvap

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logging estimates
« on: June 06, 2018, 09:08:31 AM »
I have 143 acres in the North East US and was quoted $350/1000 for everything skid to headers. This includes all the soft maples, white pine, hemlock, balsam fir, poplar, white and yellow birch.  Hard maple and black cherry to a lesser extent. He wants the soft wood 10" min. and 16'6" or 20'6". Is it normal to give one price for everything?

Offline mike_belben

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Re: logging estimates
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2018, 10:57:38 AM »
It depends on the quality of the trees.  

In an unmanaged.. Or worse.. Highgraded stand..  There will be plenty of stems in that size bracket that ARENT worth 35cents/foot so its nice that you can get that for them.  This might actually be a pretty good deal on a site that doesnt have many grade, stave or veneer logs.  If it was logged in the last 20 or 30 years that might be a deal.  If it hasnt been logged since the days of wooden wheels and flintlock rifles, yeah its low.


A clearcut sample of a site will generate loads in ratios.  Random unmanaged woods, ballparking it here.. Youll get maybe 5 loads of pulp, 2 loads of tie, 1 load grade logs, maybe a few stave butts and 1 or less veneer logs.    The younger the stand the heavier you can bias that toward pulp and the older the stand the heavier it can be towards stave.  Its always easiest for a site to produce pulp so naturally thats what you get the most of.  Conversely, veneer is a miracle.


My avg price when i bring in mixed loads works out in the 30 to 40 cent range.   A blanket rate on the landing does kinda absolve you from the grief of sorting, thats a time saver.   However you are giving away the grade and stave logs.  If there is more pulp than grade, you win.  In a nicer stand you might be giving up some income.  But again, its sort of like a convenience charge.  Dragging every stem to a single pile is pretty easy and the footage could stack up fast.  

Are you capable of grading your stumpage?
Revelation 3:20

Offline mike_belben

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Re: logging estimates
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2018, 11:06:34 AM »
follow up thought.. How honest is the buyer?  If you agree to this deal and log your whole place, put it all on the landing and the buyer starts rejecting the low grade stuff and taking all the better wood at the 30cent rate, you are getting robbed and id put a stop to that right quick.  

If it goes south that way, youll need to be able to get the cut logs off the landing and off to other mills fast before it stains.  Are you able to load and truck or find a backup buyer?  

Maybe agree to the deal and see how it goes for a few loads, see that the checks clear and the scale they pay matches what you think it ought to.  Id be tickled to get 30cents on the landing for a lot of stuff where i have to haul it 20 miles for the 30 cents. Hauling doubles your equipment, fuel and time/labor outlay.  No DOT or traffic accidents/jams in the woods.  
Revelation 3:20

Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: logging estimates
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2018, 12:33:44 PM »
I wouldn't want to sell my timber that way.  At least have a timber appraisal done.  A good timber appraisal will include what volumes you have and how much they are worth.   Why would you want to sell something you don't know the value?  

Sounds like it will only be for what he takes.  What about the material left in the woods?  No value to one logger doesn't mean another logger doesn't have a market for it.  Material not worth $350/Mbf will be left in the woods.  Not really a good plan.  

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Offline cvap

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Re: logging estimates
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2018, 01:29:36 PM »
Thank you everyone for your opinions however most of it is going way over my head. I am just an idiot landowner who is cutting firewood with a tractor and farmi winch who thought there were some nice looking logs. Too nice for firewood. I asked a friend who knew a trucker who would come and get a few loads,(i think he said 6000' per load) if they were placed where he could pick them. He called it pallet stock. It was logged in the 80's and i am using the old roads. I walked the land with someone who approached me to cut and he said it was 70% firewood so i decided to do firewood at my leisure.

Offline cvap

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Re: logging estimates
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2018, 02:41:50 PM »
 

 This is all i have so far

Offline mike_belben

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Re: logging estimates
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2018, 03:40:56 PM »
Those are sellable low grade logs where i am at.  Avg 30cents/ft delivered at mill if theyll make a tie. 


I suggest you defer to the advice of those wiser than me, but i personally think you ought to make a load and see how it goes.  Whatever he rejects you can buck up like you were gonna anyhow.  

Let your stand collect the best specimens, sell what you can around them.  Burn what you cant. 
Revelation 3:20

Offline cvap

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Re: logging estimates
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2018, 04:06:24 PM »
Thanks Mike, that's exactly what i'll do. The hauler only specified lengths of the spruce and other softwood. So i have been cutting the hardwoods a few inches over 8's 12's and 16's where they seemed straight. I have been leaving what I think are valuable trees, straight and clear sugar maples and such. However it seems that any soft maple over 16" or so starts rotting in the heart. Maybe it's the crappy weather or elevation here.

Offline Southside logger

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Re: logging estimates
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2018, 04:08:38 PM »
What state are you in?  I ask because that can make a giant difference on market opportunity.  One thing to consider here is that he needs to make a profit too and if you are doing it in small volume / mixed load, then his options on where he can bring the logs to are limited.  Logging looses a lot of efficiency when it becomes a small operation, and has a harder time competing with the commodity guys at the market.  

Assuming he shows up with a loader on his truck, does the marketing himself, and keeps all the trucking expenses and liability to himself, then I would say it's not a bad deal.   

Your options are to sell your stumpage to someone and let them cut, sort, and sell the lumber and see how that works out, or buy a whole bunch of equipment and see if you can do better in the end.  

The advantage you have is that you decide what trees fall and which ones stay with the present arrangement.  Come across a big, white oak or walnut, you can leave it there if you want.  I would try a load or two and see how the money works out compared to the time and effort you have into the venture.    
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Offline Southside logger

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Re: logging estimates
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2018, 04:10:22 PM »
Just read your reply to Mike - get the specs on trim that you need, a couple inches may not be enough and logs could be rejected or down sized.  Around here 6"-8" of trim is required for all but a couple of log classes.  
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Offline cvap

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Re: logging estimates
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2018, 05:42:57 PM »
OK Southside, I'll find out for sure what he wants for trim. I am in Western Ma. There are no oaks or walnuts on the whole lot. The hauler does this for quite a few small logging operations in the area who only own a skidder. They even call him to move their skidder around. I might be mistaken but I think it all goes to Canada.

Offline WDH

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Re: logging estimates
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2018, 09:31:10 PM »
That is a lot of acres.  Sounds like to me that you need a Forester to appraise your timber.  You have a lot to lose. 
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Offline clearcut

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Re: logging estimates
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2018, 10:42:49 PM »
Massachusetts has a preferential tax treatment program for productive forest lands (Chapter 61)  that may be worth exploring. It reduces your assessed value if you commit to forest management. 

Part of the process is hiring a Mass. Licensed Forester to prepare a management plan. That person would have local knowledge of markets and prices. 

     https://www.mass.gov/service-details/forest-tax-program-chapter-61

Annual application  deadline is June 30. 

A lack of oak is an issue, as oak is the current high value species. 

Best of luck. 

Offline mike_belben

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Re: logging estimates
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2018, 12:09:22 AM »
What town is the land in?  Im from ludlow/ springfield mass.  


low grade logs are a balancing act between keeping crook and knots out and keeping enough length on.  The hardest length to sell is 8ft because then its only use is 8ft lumber or pallet.  9'3 will make ties but then the sidewood can only be used to fill 8ft orders. 10'6 really is the sweet spot if the log can be bucked to stay straight for that long.  The cant is good for blocking or tie and the side wood makes 10ft lumber which is more marketable than 8ft.  

In low grade wood, try to hit that 10'6 mark or longer.  That helps the mill pay tie rate instead of 3common.  If the logger gets a bunch of 3com on his slip hes gonna start rejecting them on you because he is losing money on them.  I hauled in a bunch of 9'3 tie that were getting bumped down to 3com until i brought them up to 10'6.

  Naturally, you cant win em all.  Sometimes the tree dictates an 8 here and a 14 there.  


Revelation 3:20

Offline cvap

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Re: logging estimates
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2018, 07:54:45 AM »
 Mike, I am in Monroe but up high (2150') near the Town of Florida and always wanted to move to Tn. My wife can't take the weather here anymore. Been looking in the Carthage/Defeated Creek area but as we are older, being closer to a good hospital would be nice.
 I will ask the person buying the logs exactly what is best as soon as he gets back to me. Hopefully I can catch him when he comes to take what I have.
 I did look into chapter 61 back when I was Assessor and with land being valued under 1000/acre it wouldn't save me much and I always wanted to divide it when we leave. I had a friend who is a forester look at it and he just forwarded an email to a State forester saying the land needed a lot of help. I never heard from anyone again.
 Keep in mind I only burn about 5 cords a year and just plan to sell what is marketable in that process. It would be nice though to have someone tell me what trees to cut to help the lot produce logs faster.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: logging estimates
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2018, 09:22:12 AM »
Its nice out there.  A lot quieter and more civilized than the woods of tennessee. 

It may be wise to call around and see what the mills near you are looking for.  Off the top of my head i recall bannish, cowles, lashway and hull.  Dont know if they buy stumpage or what.
Revelation 3:20

Offline clearcut

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Re: logging estimates
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2018, 12:42:04 PM »
Also Heyes Forest Products in Orange, and Roberts Brothers in Ashfield.


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