Red Oak for Horse Stalls

[firefighter ontheside]

Ok, forget about the ripping thing for a bit.  Another potential customer wants 8/4 red oak lumber for horse stalls.  My questions are: red oak price for green lumber and how to figure how many boards I'll get out of something like a 20" log.  This is new to me.  I've been charging hourly, but this will be me selling lumber by the bf.  It seems like I can get about 11 2x8 boardsout of a 20" log just by drawing a circle and laying out some cuts.  Does anyone have a formula to use to figure this out.  Im wanting to see how profitable this would be for me based on price per bf.
Thanks.

[pwrwagontom]

Doesnt answer your question fully- but you should purchase a tree/log scale stick from forestry suppliers (or anywhere that sells them).  It estimates the average BF volume per log based on its end diameter and length.
I say estimates, because you can over-run.  But- great tool to start, takes some head scratching away.

Alternatively- did your Woodmizer come with a paper lumber scale slide rule?  At the very least you can practice taking tally off cut boards, to help get the feel for these things.

[mike_belben]

Call nearby sawmills and price out the materials as if you were a buyer.  That gives you the ballpark on your region pretty quick.  

[Greyhound]

Ok, forget about the ripping thing for a bit.  Another potential customer wants 8/4 red oak lumber for horse stalls.  My questions are: red oak price for green lumber and how to figure how many boards I'll get out of something like a 20" log.  This is new to me.  I've been charging hourly, but this will be me selling lumber by the bf.  It seems like I can get about 11 2x8 boardsout of a 20" log just by drawing a circle and laying out some cuts.  Does anyone have a formula to use to figure this out.  Im wanting to see how profitable this would be for me based on price per bf.
Thanks.

I know "the customer is always right" but white oak would be a more rot resistant choice for a horse stalls.

[firefighter ontheside]

I've been using a website that has a log volume calculator that gives volumes on 3 different scales based on diameter and length.  Is that what the log scale stick does?

I will try to find a nearby mill to ask that question of.  Unfortunately the one I used to buy from went out of business.  

I asked him if he needed red oak or if I could use both red and white.  He said he usually sees other folks using red mostly.  I suspect that is because red oak is the cheaper of the two.  He has draft horses and I suspect they are pretty tough on the wood, so he's mostly interested in something strong.

[TKehl]

Most horse stalls I see are in a barn and have more issues with chew and rub than rot.  Maybe outdoor stalls are common elsewhere? ??? I see a lot of horse people that treat the horses almost better than their own kids.  

I think you are spot on with most using Red due to price, but bet he would take mixed if not charged more.   :D

[WV Sawmiller]

   How about ash? Do you have a lot of dying ash in your area? Might be a good salvage project to use them on. As I understand it is pretty comparable to oak. I don't know which the horse will chew the worst which should be a consideration.

 From all I hear white oak is certainly the wood of choice, especially if it is out in the weather (which this sounds like it will not be).

  To answer your question I'd see what you can buy the logs for, figure up your cost for sawing and handling and then quote your customer a price that will return your expenses and a satisfactory profit. Checking with others is good but if they can sell cheaper than you can make a profit let them have to work.

 BTW - how about the side lumber? I'd think there would be a little bit of 4/4 lumber on the sides. Maybe not a lot but I'd try to save as much as I could if I had a use or market for it.

  Not sure in your area and while everyone thinks of hickory, or maybe mesquite for those out west, for smoking meat the best butcher and sausage maker I ever knew said red oak was actually better than hickory so even the slabwood might have value if you find the right market.

[alan gage]

When I was reading up on uses of cottonwood lumber more than once I came across people saying it was a preferred wood for horse stalls because horses won't crib (eat) it.

Alan

[firefighter ontheside]

PAsh could be a possibility.  I have some ash logs, but I'd rather not use those for this.  My ash logs are really nice and I'd like to sell that as slabs.
I can keep my eye out for other ash though.  We do have a lot dying.

The stalls are indoors and I don't believe rot is an issue.  

What I've suggested is a mix of red, white, black......whatever oak I can come up with.

Thanks for all suggestions.

[ladylake]

 

 I have a customer that wont use anything but red oak as it has tanic acid which keeps the horses from chewing on it, I sell low grade to him for 85 cents a bf, way better than pallet wood.  Steve

[olcowhand]

I've used only (due to cost) Red Oak 1x6 for Round pen Fence Rails, Kick boards and Standing Stall walls forever. 2x8 should be stout enough for Drafts. If I'm using 1x6 for stalls, I'll put a post (or a dummy post to tie them together) every 4' O/C. I drill clearance holes and use the newfangled Torx- driven Deck Screws to attach (Nails or Screws may split the board if it's somewhat dry).
"Cribbing" isn't eating, and it results in boards that are chewed away rapidly. Fortunately, "Cribbers" (horses that have this habit- it's akin to a human that smokes, and results in harm to their health) are few and far between; the ginger taste of Red Oak may appeal to some horses, but I haven't found any horses that have chewed on or eaten my boards (maybe it's the Tanic acid Ladylake mentions, I was not aware of that fact).
I'll go through my phone pics and post a couple of my recent uses.
Note: The boards I use are reasonably priced (remember, I'm buying) in my region, and you should price this work for you to be comfortable.
"Another" Steve

[Lawg Dawg]

I'd be about $1.25 for low grade water oak lumber here...I also herd if you spray the lumber with silicone spray, the horses don't knaw it as bad ??? : :D



 

[nativewolf]

We get 1.10-1.20/bdft for horse fence,  1x6x 16 footers.  You'll loose a bunch more lumber getting to wood that makes a 2x so I'd charge more for sure.  

Also, if they want stalls they probably want fencing.  Sell them fencing too.  As local sawyers we all have an advantage in our ability to sell green fence boards, they nail so much easier it is a premium products.  Every rural community has a need for fence lumber and I suggest it as a good starting point.  Low end pricing is $1/bdft.  Others get higher pricing.  

[Chuck White]

Most in this area used to use Elm for the flooring in horse stalls!

[Solar_HoneyBee0]

Like a couple people said, Red Oak by me is pretty cheap. At least in regards for something you would use for fencing. For 4/4 you're looking around $1.10 - $1.60 depending on quantity needed. However, with this being 8/4 the price would easily add $1.00 per board foot if not more.

I had an order not too long ago for 2,500 board feet of Red Oak 8/4. I quoted the guy at $2.50 a board foot since it was green. He was happy since I was almost $1.00 below most people he could find and I delivered it for just some fuel money. He was happy and so was I. I guess it just depends on your area and what you're happy with for a profit. Best of luck.

[firefighter ontheside]

Well, I gotta come up with the logs, but I was thinking at least $2/bf. Maybe I can charge a bit more.  I need to figure out how many of each size board I am gonna get out of a log to know how much to pay for a log.

Thanks for everyone's input.  It's very helpful.

[AlpineCutter]

Firefighter, i think you are over estimating your log yeild a little bit if you figure you can get 11 2x8's out of a 20 inch log. Thats 22 inches of lumber without figuring in your saw kerf.

[Southside]

Another option that works well in stalls is Hemlock if you have any around, Tamarack is even better but I am assuming there is none by you. 

[firefighter ontheside]

Firefighter, i think you are over estimating your log yeild a little bit if you figure you can get 11 2x8's out of a 20 inch log. Thats 22 inches of lumber without figuring in your saw kerf.

Was thinking I'd get one or two out of each side.

[firefighter ontheside]

Another option that works well in stalls is Hemlock if you have any around, Tamarack is even better but I am assuming there is none by you.

Wish we did have some hemlock or tamarack, but no.  ERC and yellow pine here in mid Missouri.

[Southside]

Ugg... Forgot where you were. My bad. 

[Brad_bb]

You have to be real careful what horses are exposed to.  There are a lot of things that are toxic to horses.  

Southern Yellow Pine is standard for horse stalls (non-treated).  I just did 2x Ash for a barn and stalls.  It will be treated with Permachink's Shell Guard to ward off PPB or any other bug (the ash is Dry to 12%).  It's a borate with alcohol solvents to help it penetrate the wood. Borates are low toxicity for people and animals when dry.  
  I'm looking at putting an oil finish.  The barn fram has heritage oil finish, which is tung oil, linseed oil, and citrus solvent, beeswax, and pine rosin.  Since Tung tree is toxic to horses, I'm having a special mix done without the Tung oil.  Flax oil, which is linseed oil, is not toxic generally, although it's not food grade.  I'm going to see how this finish dries and how it does over the shell guard.  They said the Tung oil in the original product dries hard, whereas the linseed oil dries softer or takes longer to dry and doesn't have as hard a surface finish.  You need to study anything you are considering exposing to horses.

Oak leaves are toxic to horses, but as with many trees that are toxic to them, it may take a certain amount of leaves, some are only dangerous in the fall when decaying.  So you have to consider what the toxin is in the material and how much exposure there really is.

Another issue is how much they can crib.  Stall walls that encase the wood in a steel frame is better than just exposed on edge wood.  Even wood that is encased can still be chewed by horses.  Some will dig their teeth into the flat face.  This is harder to do so you have to have a rare neurotic horse to do a lot of damage this way.  Splinters are something else to consider.  If they can chew an edge, how exposed are they to splinters in their mouth?

[thecfarm]

I had a horse that would crib. Only one he would not crib,was the pressure treated post. Someone told me put used motor oil on the wood. I did every month or so. He would still eat it!!!!

[firefighter ontheside]

I'm just selling some wood.  I'll let this guy worry about the horses eating it.  That's if I get the job.  Gotta come up with the logs before I can think about cutting them.

[Rhodemont]

Red Oak horse stall and fence boards is what I do.  I agree you can get 11 2 x 8 out of our 20 inch if the log is good and round by preparing an 8 inch cant and getting one from each side.  But I would prepare quote based on 10 because the pith can give you a poor quality board down the middle.  While I agree the buyer is responsible for protecting his investment from horses chewing such as installing angle steel or aluminum on all exposed corners which nicer stalls have, try not to have sap wood on the edges of boards from the outer cuts.  That will get chewed on by horses out of boredom not even ones that crib.

[firefighter ontheside]

Thanks Rhodemont.

[firefighter ontheside]

I have no experience with water oak.  Is it suitable for the use at hand, horse stalls?  I may have found a bunch of logs.

[Rhodemont]

I am not familiar with water oak since we do not have it here.  But, being in the red oak family i would think it will be fine.

[Magicman]

As long is it is not exposed to the elements (under a shed) it will be OK, same as any other Red Oak.

[firefighter ontheside]

I've found somebody selling 13 big water oak logs that look like they'd make good lumber.  Also found some other sources for oak logs.  Just gotta get the guy to commit and tell me how many and what sizes he wants for lumber.

When sawing by yourself, would you ever leave boards on the can't and keep cutting til the stack became too high.  Seems like it would save me time instead of pulling each board.

[Magicman]

The pith area is very susceptible to bacteria damage on large Water Oaks.

There is no problem with leaving the lumber on the cant as you saw.  That is unless there is stress and you need to flip the cant 180°.  Many times I can outsaw the tailgunner so there could be several at any given time.

[rjwoelk]

When I was reading up on uses of cottonwood lumber more than once I came across people saying it was a preferred wood for horse stalls because horses won't crib (eat) it.

Alan

Dont use cotton wood or spruce or pine or plywood or osb. They will disappear.  We have had up to 20 horses on our place. Treated or untreated posts looks like a beaver was at it. But i have read in one of the timber frame books that they will not chew hemlock.  I need to make a couple of shelters and will be doing them in hemlock. Time will tell. 

[firefighter ontheside]

Ok, my guy wants 70   2x6x8
                           30   2x6x10
                           Plus any 1x6 I can make from side lumber 

He said to lean toward red oak.  I'm thinking to charge $2/bf.  If I can buy logs at about .20/bf based on Doyle scale a 20"x8' log will cost me about $50.  I should get between 12 and 14 2x6 out of that log.  That makes the log worth $224.  You guys think that's a good profit margin?  I have to go load the logs and bring them home.  I feel like maybe it's not.

[woodmills1]

I mix red and white for all of my horse and trailer deck jobs.  I save the nicest white for my barrel maker.  Never will I assume how many pieces I will get from any one log, as there are almost always hidden issues like pockets, ants and ring shake.  I would say get more than you think yo need and go for other customers for the jacket boards.

[woodmills1]

If you can't make money selling oak at 2 bucks and buying it at 20 cents you need to quit.  I don't pay for logs but do have considerable equipment and over head to pick them up.  I charge a buck and a half and oak makes me most of my money.

[firefighter ontheside]

This is new for me.  I'm having difficulty guessing how much time I'll have in it altogether.   Don't want to charge too little or too much.  This guy could be a good returning customer if I can keep getting logs.

[Don P]

Just catching up on this thread. A beekeeper told me that the reason carpenter bees avoid hemlock is that it is bitter, can't say as I've ever tried it and not sure if it pertains to the not cribbing on it comment.

Raw linseed oil, in old barns if you run into a black, gummy, molding, full of dirt and dust mess on the wood, that is raw linseed oil. It doesn't dry and supports mold growth.

 Boiled linseed oil will polymerize, this can be achieved by boiling raw linseed oil or the addition of chemicals, mainly heavy metals that help the oil kick. The latter, more commonly available BLO, wouldn't be good to ingest.

I can't say one way or the other but we decided not to use any glycols with the borate where livestock is involved.

[barbender]

Just my opinion, if your paying .20bf for logs and getting $2bf for lumber, especially on standard length 6" width lumber, you should be cutting a fat hog. You should be able to saw a decent quality log into 2x6 with little waste or side lumber.

[Lawg Dawg]

I think you'll come out just FINE! I'd start SAWING!

[Brad_bb]

I wouldn't quote him a price until you KNOW what you will pay for the logs.  You could end up having to pay .40 or more.   Or quote your price contingent on your log cost.  What I'm saying is, don't shoot yourself in the foot.  On another note, as far as selling for $2/BF...whether that is good or not is dependent on your costs and what you think is proper for a margin for your work.  It is also important to know what others would charge.  If everybody else the area would charge $2.75, you're undercharging by 38%.  

[firefighter ontheside]

Thanks guys for the comments.  I'm picking up some logs next week.  I'm not sure if they're all red or not.  It 11 logs from 12 to 20 feet long and from 8" to 20".  They look very good.  Already down and straight.  I'm giving 175 for these, which I'm sure is less than .20.  I'll see how far they get me and get more if needed.  Told the guy $2/bf and he was fine with that.  Looks like I'll be putting my log A frame to good use next week.

[Magicman]

I'm giving 175 for these, which I'm sure is less than .20.

That sounds like you did not scale the logs.  

[firefighter ontheside]

You're right.....I didn't.  Had to gamble on these.  I'll scale them after I get them and see how I did.  I'll let ya know.

[thecfarm]

@rjwoelk,who wrote that book. :D  My horses did not read it. I even put used motor oil on the hemlock and still had one that would eat it. Not much,but enough to make it look bad. He would start to chew and I would put the oil to it. Only slowed him down a little. YUCK. The only thing he did not try to eat was the treated post.

[barbender]

I don't like guessing by a picture, but those logs look real nice. If there's a thousand there you did well, and even if there was only 500 feet I think you still have plenty of room to profit. Quality oak sawtimber brings $400-$500mbf here.

[firefighter ontheside]

I hope you're right.

[rjwoelk]

Thecfarm. I will check when i get back home next week and see which author mentioned it. He said that the horse barns were the only place he used hemlock. The 3 loads of hemlock i got were clear of shake.

[thecfarm]

Don't matter to me. Just saying my horses chewed on hemlock. No matter what is said,someone always says not so. That was me this time.  ;D 
I just don't want you to build with hemlock,than tell everyone and find out your horses did not read that book either.

[firefighter ontheside]

What would you guys have bet as to how many of those logs would be white?  Anybody bet all would be?  Well they are.  Hope I can convince the guy to use white oak.  Probably not.  I think he feels red is better for the horses.

[firefighter ontheside]

If I had scaled the logs like Lynn asked about, I would have known they were white instead of red.

[WV Sawmiller]

   If it were me and you offered me WO instead of RO for this purpose I would be a real happy camper. Good luck.

[nativewolf]

Huh, 50% more expensive at a min.  I would increase the price on him.

[nativewolf]

If I had scaled the logs like Lynn asked about, I would have known they were white instead of red.

Ok, put another way, if they don't want it for the stalls sell it for trailer decking.  WO is just a more desirable wood and the RO market is flooded right now.  Pricing on RO has gone to heck in the log market and lumber is not much better.

[firefighter ontheside]

We know that white oak is more valuable in general, but the guy asked for red.  After talking to him last week I think he wants red because he feels it is better for stalls.  I will understand completely if he says no.  In that case, I will cut the white oak and sell to someone else.  There's a few real nice logs that I will cut for woodworking and the rest as something like trailer decking as native wolf suggests.  It's a shame I can only cut 10 feet long.

[Lawg Dawg]

It's a shame I can only cut 10 feet long.

No Kidding! If youre kinda handy with metal, you could slap an extension together right quick, but I think you can get an extension from WM for about $700.  If your sawing for $$$, can't not have it!

[firefighter ontheside]

Yeah, I'm not a metal guy.  That's why I do woodworking and sawing.  I have a friend though.  Eventually I will either buy one or have one made. Probably wait til I build a new home for the mill.  

[Lawg Dawg]

Bigger is better! As far as sawmill extenisons go!

[firefighter ontheside]

I would like to be able to cut 16' lumber.

[nativewolf]

I would like to be able to cut 16' lumber.

20' opens up lots of markets like trailer decking, beams, etc.  17' gets you to horse fencing.  Both of those are important for us but do require equipment to move the lumber, a bobcat with forks or tractor.  Roller tables are hugely helpful, don't have to be powered just have rollers.  

[Brad_bb]

Is the guy doing any metal framework around the wood?  That can help stop a lot of the chewing.  But even if horses only have access to the face of a board, they can still dig their teeth into a flat face if they are so inclined.  Not all horses chew, in fact, a lot don't.  If they have access to proper food, get exercise, and stimulation, less likely to be a chewer.  

[Don P]

Has anyone tried ailanthus? The bark is one of the most astringent, bitter things I've ever tasted. I mentioned that to a forester and he said "don't do that again, some people really react to it"... so not sure what the possible problems might be if they do crib on it.

[WV Sawmiller]

Don,

   We call it stink tree around here. I have not cut any for lumber. I did knock out power up and down the creek for several miles cutting a big one over the creek and crossing our power line. I was worried would get my fence like the one beside it had done. It seems to be pretty soft wood and I can't imagine it being much count. Plus did I mention it stinks?

[curved-wood]

My dog was eating the posts of the gazebo just for the fun of it. I put some Tabasco sauce on it...the dog stoped right away. I dont know if it could work for horses. Might be the opposite if the horses have some mexican genetic 

[Banjo picker]

Just like curved-wood's dog eating his gazebo...that 10 foot mill bed is gona eat your lunch if you are going to buy long logs.  If you could cut those white oak into trailer decking you could just about pay for your extension with that one whack of logs you bought.  Const. companys are regulary having to replace trailer decks.  I have one cut waiting on the customer to pick up now.  I hope you do well with your adventure.  Banjo

[firefighter ontheside]

Yeah, I have had to turn down one trailer decking job, because I couldn't cut long enough.  Also, I'm as busy as I want to be right now, so I don't need to expand too much.  That will just put me behind with jobs.  When I retire from the fire department, I may need to bring in more business.

[Don P]

The local welders need decking and can make extensions whenever you want to go that way.

They did a study at VA Tech on tree of heaven, turns out it is comparable to red oak in bending strength, stiffness and shear. Then they gave a bunch of wood to local cabinet and furniture makers who generally gave it high marks, comparing it to ash. I did saw up a few thousand feet of it a few years back. It has lots of tension but did make some nice lumber, the client used it for paneling and trim. I was delighted to get away from it after about a week of playing in that smell though!

[olcowhand]

I feel like we've gotten off in the weeds on this, and taken FireFighter with us.
FireFighter...
We don't have to dwell on every stable vise (cribbing) or horse that's chewed on some wood to give you
the advice you need. Everyone who has owned or been around horses can cite an example of how they can be destructive to a fence or a stall. The decision to expose these particular horses to a particular type of wood is your customer's decision.
Your customer has asked for Red Oak; in good faith, you negotiated for Red Oak, and got White Oak. You can present this fact to him (I personally feel that WO would be a better structural wood, but that's his choice...), and explain that the WO is more expensive. If he still wants RO, you still have all these wonderful ideas of what you can do with the WO- but you'll have to find him RO.
As stated earlier, some- or all of his horses may crib, chew, kick, eat, lick, rub or otherwise abuse the fence as they wish (or the boards will last for twenty- five years)- and he'll have to live with that..... after he pays you and drives away.
I hope this helps. You have a sale to make.
Steve

[firefighter ontheside]

Thanks olcowhand.  I've texted him with the WO option, but haven't heard back.  I will call him tomorrow and talk it over.  As you say,if he wants red oak, I will get him red oak.  He wasn't in a big hurry either.

[Brad_bb]

There is a moral obligation to inform the customer that some types of wood and even certain finishes are toxic to horses.  Advise them to research on their own.  

[firefighter ontheside]

This guy appears to be very experienced with horses and stalls for horses.  I think he has always used red oak and intends to continue to use RO.

[barbender]

Just tell him from everything you know, the qualities he values RO for are all surpassed by WO. It's not as brittle, is more flexible and it is more decay resistant as well. In the end, if he prefers RO, give him that. But if it is just that he's using RO because that's what he's always used, you may be able to persuade him to the superior qualities of WO.

[firefighter ontheside]

That's exactly what I intend to do.

[Lawg Dawg]

Or you could quarter saw or make live edge slabs from the WO, and turn a pretty good profit


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Over the past few years I've done more of this with my oak logs and less of the decking and stall board stuff...but I'll take it anyway it comes!

[firefighter ontheside]

I finally heard back from him that white oak was ok.  He said he did some research and found out WO was good for stalls.

I think I have more than enough logs and will save the nicer ones to make some woodworking lumber instead of horse stalls.  May even qs some of it.

[barbender]

Good deal!

[Brad_bb]

I RRQS's my first White Oak log this week.  A lot of work, but I really enjoyed it.  You will when you see the fleck.  If you don't know What RRQS is, you need to read the thread about it.  Do a search for the term.

[firefighter ontheside]

I've done the modified q sawing method on WM website.  It's not perfect, but you don't have to do any slanting of the cant.  Probably what I'll do with the WO.

[firefighter ontheside]

I cut 26 2x6s today.  I learned that cutting 10" logs to get 2 boards is really inefficient.   It was much nicer cutting a 17" log that yielded 10 2x6s.  More later in the week.