Showing my lgnerense

[Fla._Deadheader]

About time we discussed some things here.

   I have NEVER heard of a load of logs described as a "Whack", until I landed here.

  I have never heard of buying and selling logs "by the ton". That sounds like a "pulpwood" thing.

    Am I that old or that far out of touch with reality ??????????????
  Help me guys, PLEASE !!!!

  How many board feet in a ton ??????????????

[Jeff]

You cannot convert weight to board foot. I know of no logs that are sold by weight only pulp or chips.

As for whack, you aint took the time to find the origin of the whack rules? shame shame.

[Fla._Deadheader]

You need to visit me fer Christmas then. You could learn along with me !!! 8) 8)

[Jeff]

https://forestryforum.com/cgi-bin/board/YaBB.pl?board=sawmill;action=display;num=1006903197;start=8

The origin of the best log rule ever invented

[Tillaway]

Small diameter sawlogs are scaled by the ton in the Western US.  It's far too costly to roll out scale 100 to 200 pieces per truck.  Most mills give you an option to wieght scale even the large log loads.  This is done by the logger putting only one sort on a truck and roll out scaling and wieghing say, every fifth load with the rest passing over only the scales.  It works real well and keeps costs down but all your logs have to be similar.

[Fla._Deadheader]

OK. You convinced me. I'm now, "whacked out".

 On an udder angle. I just remembered that a Heart Pine Sinker log is "supposed" to weigh 64 1/2 pounds per cubic foot. Maybe one of you rithmetic geniuses can convert that to square (board) feet. My brain hurts tonight !!! Use any size-length to determine the footage.

  Today I was quoted $100.00-$125.00 per ton for my Cypress. I made it clear that this was NOT modern growth, which IS traded by the ton. Didn't matter ??????

[Jeff]

Cubic foot =12 board feet

Thats about 31 cubic feet per ton or 372 board feet

so thats $3.72 per bf at $100 or 4.65 per bf at $125

[Fla._Deadheader]

OK. Then figger me a log that's got 18 inches of heart and it's 14 feet long. By the ton and board feet, thank you very much. I really appreciate your assistance, by the way, Jeff.

[Bro. Noble]

I don't think so !

I get about 27 cents/bdft @ $100/ ton and about 34 cents at 125/ton.

Noble

[Jeff]

international scale the heartwood would yield 203 board foot.

203/12 to get back to cubic feet 16.91666 X your 64.5 = lb per cubic foot =1091.12 lbs which you can roughly multiply by 2 to get estimated weith of the heartwood, I get 2182.24 lbs or 1.09 tons

[Jeff]

Noble, we are taking 2 different animals, maybe 3.  We are paid by the ton for our chips, after they take a sample and determine the moisture content, then they pay on the adjusted weight. So, wet or dry spring or summer, we are getting payed about the same for the fiber.

Dead header I am guessing is being payed on the theory of what saturated cypress weighs.

[Jeff]

i think noble is right

[Jeff]

I have come to the conclusion that I do not know how to do this by weight. I do know that a log that is 16" by 14ft has 203 bf international.

[Fla._Deadheader]

Whoa, whoa. Back up the truck here. Jeff, if that particular log weighed 1.09 tons, at $100.00 and 203 feet of scale, wouldn't that be .50/bdft and at $125.00 / ton about .625/bdft?? Am I "whacked out" here??

[Bro. Noble]

Jeff,

Why did you multiply it by 2?  Otherwise it would have been about 25 and 31 cents.
 
Harold's gonna end up like that Canadian Mountie if we don't watch out.

Noble

[Jeff]

I said, the only thing I know for sure is the international scale figure. The weight is my estimate.

[Tillaway]

 Deadheader, you need to be more specific on log size.  The cubic foot to board foot ratio varies by log diameter.  It's easy to figure when you have the large and small end diameter, and length, also you need the scale rules that are applied by your buyer.  Give me an example and I'll figure it for you.

[Jeff]

I multiply by two because the weght is for the whole log not just the lumber. you have to figure in the weight of the by products. slabs, sawdust,  around 50% for an average is what we usually figure, depending on the log size

[RMay]

In south Arkansas all of our pine & H.W. tree length logs or sold by the ton most of the mills will not scale . pine logs is about 6 to 7 tons per 1000 b.f. it will very from mill to mill .

[Tillaway]

Lets see a 14" 14' log weighs 965 lbs.  Scales at 119 bf International.  That means its $405.46 per mbf @ $100 / ton, or 506.83 per mbf @ $125 / ton. :P

[Fla._Deadheader]

Tillaway. This is gettin WAY over my head. Jeff hit it close on the Intl. scale On this particular log, 18" dia X 14 feet= 200 bdft Intl. There is about 1 1/2 " of sapwood. The butt end measures 19 1/2" of heart with about 2" of sapwood

   Ron just posted on another thread that logs became sinkers at 62.4 pounds per cuft. My weight seems about right. How can one outfit pay $2.00 bdft for logs and the rest can't pay even $1.00 ???? How much difference is there between Doyle and Intl. scale?? I bought by Doyle when I lived in Arkansas, and gave an inch for real good logs.????

[Jeff]

Dead head use this calculator to see doyle, international and scribner

http://www.timberbuyer.net/sawlogbf.htm

[Tillaway]

Using your last example and allowing for the wieght of the sap you would be getting 517.55 mbf @ $100.  $646.94 mbf @ $125.  Thats for 18" heart 14' long.

[Fla._Deadheader]

Thanks guys. Appreciate the help. My head hurts. Going to bed.

[Ron Wenrich]

One reason I don't like to see sawlogs sold by the ton is that weight will vary, depending on density.  Slower growing trees will weigh more.  

Is quality a factor on that cypress?  Most quality logs are scaled.  Defect is figured in and a footage factor is applied.

There is no direct relationship of board foot to cubic foot in the log form.  In Jeff's example of using the Int scale, at 14"  the bf/cuft would be 6.85.  At 18" the ratio is 7.30.  Contrary to popular belief, size does matter.  

Cubic footage can be determined by either measuring both ends or measuring in the middle of the log.  From there, you could put in your weight and come up with a dollar per thousand.

You can make out pretty well with small logs by the ton.  But, for the larger logs, scale would be the best.

Do you need a calculator for cubic footage?  We could design one in pretty short order.  The weight thing might take a little more time, but can be done.  We could also do one that compares cubic footage to scaled footage.

[woodmills1]

lets see then first convert a whack into tons then into cords then into bd ft then into cubic foot then............   I bet gravity is down with that then.........

[Fla._Deadheader]

Do you need a calculator for cubic footage?  We could design one in pretty short order.  The weight thing might take a little more time, but can be done.  We could also do one that compares cubic footage to scaled footage.

   This would be a big help, Ron. I know this isn't REALLY that complicated. I would like to be able to match wits with terms when talking to folks, especially the ones that MAY be trying to get one over on you.

  If you could, also figure in the "black water" factor and the "gator" factor. You'd be amazed how many folks go by and say " You couldn't pay me enough to get in the water with them gators. This has GOT to be worth something ??? :D :D :D

  So, according to Tillaway's last post, the going OFFER for my logs is .51-.64 per foot, right ??

  If that's correct, does anybody have extra room in their dry kil, for some really nice 700-1000 year old boards ?????

[Ron Wenrich]

Your 18" log has 26.84 cu ft.  Green cypress weighs 51 lbs/cu ft.  I'm not sure about that 62.4 lbs to become a sinker.  Hickory and red oak weigh more than that, and they float.  

Using 62.5 lbs/cu ft gives that log a weight of  .83 tons.  At $100/ton  comes out to $415/Mbf  and $518 @ $125/ton.   For Doyle, it's $485 and $609.

But, look at the mill's standpoint.  At a difference of 11.5 lbs/cu ft due to water, they are paying an extra $15-20/ log for water.   :D  

[Fla._Deadheader]

Here ya go, as per Ron Scott's reply.(Logs sink when they are overloaded with pitch, sap, and moisture. When the weight of the log exceeds 62.4 pounds/cubic foot it reaches a negative buoyancy; it will then not float and becomes a "sinker." ) This is MOSTLY for the older, denser, Virgin timber.

  My main question is, how can one mill pay $2.00 bdft and the others only want to offer .50bdft??

  I know, I know, ya'll would do that too if ya could get away with it !!

  This mill has a bunch of orders to fill, too !!! ?????

[ohsoloco]

A whack of logs is a new one to me too.  I'm used to the very precise measurement of a "jag" of wood or logs.  As far as firewood, I believe a jag is a load that is either heaped up over the bed of the truck, or a load that has the bumper almost touching the ground (these two circumstances usually go hand in hand).  A jag of logs would be a load that makes your truck have to crawl up any kind of incline, usually resulting in a parade of irate drivers following  ;)  I suppose a jag could be simplified further to be any load that makes you nervous when you see the MAN   :D

[Tom]

 My main question is, how can one mill pay $2.00 bdft and the others only want to offer .50bdft??

 Here's my take on it in a meandering way. It all depends on the Market that the mill or retailer is reaching.

A person has created the market for some items where no market existed before.

Old trees harvested before our time and lost may not be any better than some of the trees we cut today. I have sawed today's pine that is every bit as dense clear and full of heart as the pine that is refloated from rivers and old log ponds.  The difference in the dollars is that the "old, lost pine has been marketed as something super special that comes from a time to which we can no longer relate.  The wood is already aged and the colors set to show off the  grain and density of the wood.  Wood from new trees will not gain these aesthetics for several years.  The people being sold this wood are as much interested in the "age" as they are in the beauty.  It would be a little like buying bricks that once were used to build Benjamin Franklin's house as opposed to a bright shiny new brick made by a robot at the local manufacturer's brickyard.

Logs sold to the fellow who is doing all the marketing may benefit from the raised  value just because the marketeer elevated the status.

The same logs sold to someone who hasn't the market and hasn't identified with the market won't be worth anymore to him than any run-of-the-mill log he can get his hands on.  Unless he is willing to join in on the rising status of the new market then this is just another log.

What is Gold?  It is a metal that resists corrosion.

Why doesn't the Navy build their ships out of Gold?  Because somebody, somewhere down the line marketed Gold as something special, a thing of beauty, a rarity.  If that marketeer hadn't done that then there may be no difference between Gold, Lead, Aluminum or iron.

Sometimes we, as producers, need to create markets rather than provide for existing markets.

That oversized piece of tree trunk that had the big limb sticking out of it was left in the woods until someone decided to find something about it that would sell.Then there was "crotch wood". The rotten tree became  "spalted',  The cancer on the tree trunk became a "turning burl" or "burl veneer".  

The specialty wood store down the street was opened by the sawyer who was trying to make some money out of his waste, sell something nobody would buy, make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Since there are not many specialty stores and the majority of the stores aren't interested in the market or creative enough to generate one, then the rest of us may be left to doing our own marketing.

One of my favorite philosophers, Brother Dave Gardner, said once:  A young southern farm boy left home to enter the world and said "Bye Pappa", and his pappa said, "Bye Son'"  The young New York type Yankees son left home and said, "Bye Poppa", and his pappa said "Sell !".

[Ron Wenrich]

Cubic foot volume calculator is now in the pipeline.

[Fla._Deadheader]

Well, after all the wrangling over logs and bdft last night, (Thanks guys), I got a call from my original buyer today! Seems that he had been calling for 2 days and my line was always busy. Told him I was looking for someone to buy my logs. He said "no way". I will buy your logs. Seems that there was a major miscommunication within his organization. SOOOOO, looks like I may eat Turkey on Thursday after all. WHEW !!! Maybe "the boss" will stay off my back for a few days ??? :D :D :D

  Tom, was that another "marketing" point you were trying to get across ??? :D :D  Point well taken !!!

[Jeff]

Now online. Use the tool box link or go right to it here.
Thanx Ron more good work!

www.forestryforum.com/cubic_foot_calculator.htm

[Tom]

I want to see you get so rich that you need a motorcycle to get around on your yacht that you float in your swimming pool on your airplane. :D :D

[Tom]

Wow, Jeff.  That sucker is faster than a Blow Fly in a Hurricane. :-/  Is it right? :D

[Bro. Noble]

Tom,

I just read on the 'music for relaxing thread' that One With Wood (I believe it was) is putting an airline in his shop.  Maybe Harold will be able to land his airplane there.

Noble

[Tom]

 :D :D

[Fla._Deadheader]

OK,OK. IF I get an aerioplain, I am gonna in-vite ya'll for a ride to ANYWHERE ya wanna go. I'll be sure to have Baloney and Peas on board, too. :D

[Jeff]

Pickled Baloney?

[Fla._Deadheader]

GGHHHEEEEEZZZZZZZZ. ANOTHER NEW TERM ????? :D :D :D  NEVER heard of "pickled" baloney ???? How about if ya just get pickled yerself? You won't know the difference?? :D :D :D

[OneWithWood]

Say, Noble, do you think I can get government assistance with my 'airline' :D :D :D :D :D ;D

[Jeff]

I figure you could only get noble 2-3 feet off the ground tops with your airline. :D

DeadHeader: WHAT??? WHAT??? Never heard of Pickled Baloney? Oh my GOD! I can not beleive this, you guys don't have that down there? Corley5 did you hear this??

[Fla._Deadheader]

Never SAID don't have it here. SAID ,never heard of it. :D :D :D

[woodbeard]

Jeff, that is a dangerous substance no longer allowed on aircraft.

[Bro. Noble]

One with Wood,

If you lived in Ma. you no doubt could get assistance from that senator Teddy-----boy, talk about pickled balogna !

Noble

[Fla._Deadheader]

Good one, Noble  Good one. :D :D :D :D

[Jeff]

Never SAID don't have it here. SAID ,never heard of it. :D :D :D

If you aint never heard of it you aint got it

[Fla._Deadheader]

Not neccessarily. I'm in an "urban" area. Maybe out in the country it exists. I don't get out there too often.

  Is this possibly a "northern" thing? I mean, there are nationalities way up north,  grouped together, that may influence certain types of food?

  In Arkansas there are different types that I had never heard of, that were very good. I just got burned out on Baloney from school lunches. ;D ;D

[Tom]

Well, I never heard of it either.  Sounds like an imported fare.  Those Snowbirds are always trying to bring that weird stuff they like to eat down here.  They don't like our stuff, grits, chitterlings, Greens and Fat Back.  They'd starve if some of our stores didn't cater to them and import a few of those Matzas and other animals they're used to.  Heck we even have to sell'em Water!

[Jeff]

Its not "Imported fare". I am now peaved. I aint telling ya about it and I aint sending ya any. Snowbirds?
Humph

[Jeff]

I will tell you "about it".

My first recollection of Pickled ring balogna was when Dad took me squirrel hunting at the old farm when I was about 10. It was just he and I that day and I remember all of it. Dad was a busy man working full time at Dow and being a full time minister too so these times were few and far between.

Anyway we stoped at the old greendale store and dad bought a coil of pickled balogna and had it wrapped in some brown waxed paper. He bought a hunk of sharp chedder cheese and a box of saltines. We then went over to the greendale town hall and sat underneath the monstrous red oaks. We feasted and dad taught me how to make a whistle out of the huge acorn caps that lay around us.

Since that day Pickeled Balogna has been and always will be the most special food in the world.

[Fla._Deadheader]

DanG Tom, Jeff thinks we were pokin fun at him. I was serious, Jeff. What is the general "Ethnicity" up there? Could this Balogna be a German thing?? I would really like to know??

[OneWithWood]

My father, of mostly German extract, would bring home some pickled bologna, pickled pigs feet, hard salami, cheese and crackers.  It was a special feast and sometimes I would get a swig of his beer 8)
Dad's gone now but the memories will be with me forever.

Jeff, I figure with the warmer than normal air here I could get Noble maybe 4-5 feet up in the air with my air line :D

[Jeff]

Deadheader I could send you a jar, what da ya got other then "our stuff, grits, chitterlings, Greens and Fat Back." that you could trade?

Onewithwood, I'd say thats possible if he's connected to the airline but Noble seems to be able to float around with out it so maybe even your estimate might even be low.

[Ron Wenrich]

The only place I've seen pickled bologna is in bars.  Right next to the pickled eggs, and underneath the blind robins.  In the stores, you can find some pickled hot sausage, but it ain't ring bologna.

I don't know about the rest of the country, but we have several different types of what we call lunch meat.  Basically, it's something like a big hot dog - with different spices.  Olive loaf, pickle loaf, and the like.  

Then, you have Lebanon bologna.  That is more like a sausage.  Pennyslvania Dutch in origin.  They drop one in Lebanon each year at midnight on New Year's Eve.  Something like the apple at Times Square.  They used to have a Bologna Fest that featured a 50' bologna and fried bologna sandwiches.

There are also several types of ring bologna.  The other meats are pressed meats like roast beef, ham, turkey.

But, none of them are pickled.

[Jeff]

You can buy jars of pickled balogna in every grocery store here. So I can't speak of the ethenticity cause everybody likes it ;D

[Jeff]

Then again some people consider this part of Michigan one big Bar.

[Tom]

Give'im some pickled bologna.  That'd get him up in the air. :D

The Bars and country stores sell pickled sausage down here.  Its the hot country type sausage like you would fry for breakfast except they put it in gallon jars of vinegar and spices like they do the eggs, pickled pigs feet, pickled pigs ears and snouts.  Yep I've eaten those.  That makes good hunting fare and stuff to eat when you gather to tell lies out in the back yard.  Bologna to me is that thin sliced stuff that you make a sandwich with to take to school.  The sandwich is two slices of bread, mayonaise, mustard and a newspaper thin slice of bologna where somebody almost missed the sausage.  When I grew up, I found out you could buy the whole sausage and cut 1/2 inch thick slices for sandwiches.  Now that made more sense. Pickled Sausage is more of a "go-with-beer" snack here. :P

[Jeff]

"go-with-beer" snacks here:

Eggs
Tuna sandwich
Meat loaf
Chinese food
Spaghetti
pop tarts
venison
ice cream
crest toothpaste
oat meal
hot dogs
mashed potatoes
etc...  ;D

[Tom]

Oh-h-h  :-/

[Jeff]

Oh-h-h?

[Tom]

Hmmm  Think I will have another big orange.... :

[Noble_Ma]

My dad ate all kinds of pickled meats and eaggs, but no bologna.  He used to make his own pickled eggs.  They could clear the room just opening the jar,.  Never mind the after effects from eating them ;D