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Author Topic: Accuset or simple set on a non woodmizer mill  (Read 4328 times)

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Offline rs1626

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Accuset or simple set on a non woodmizer mill
« on: June 12, 2010, 05:35:30 PM »
Has any body ever tried to adapt the Accuset or simple set to a non woodmizer hydraulic mill?

Offline Bibbyman

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Re: Accuset or simple set on a non woodmizer mill
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2010, 08:25:05 PM »
Start with the Accuset and then convert everything over to Wood-Mizer too.  I wouldn't think Accuset would be feasible on any other mill. 

Simple setworks maybe.  But even that I wouldn't think would be practical.
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Offline r.man

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Re: Accuset or simple set on a non woodmizer mill
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2010, 01:10:05 AM »
Bibbyman, does Accuset just give you preset depths or does it figure out settings based on log and heart size?
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Offline Bibbyman

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Re: Accuset or simple set on a non woodmizer mill
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2010, 04:40:12 AM »
Bibbyman, does Accuset just give you preset depths or does it figure out settings based on log and heart size?

On the “preset depts.” part of the question;

Not exactly.  Accuset allows you to make “programs” to control the movement and location of the sawhead up and down location (thus where the blade is going to cut).  

It has several modes..  

"Manual Mode" – you can run the head up/down and it tells you where your blade is above the bed. In this mode you can “round off” to the nearest inch by hitting a button.  This is helpful if you’re trying to cut or edge to a whole inch because the display is in 1/32” increments and it’s hard to get it to go to the “exact” inch.  (if you were just reading a manual scale, you’d never notice 1/32” but you can on the Accuset and it’ll drive you nuts trying to locate it “exactly” at an inch increment.

Then there is the “Auto Up” and “Auto Down” mode.  You can program and store 16 different increments of movements.  Anytime you go into this mode and select a button for how far you want the head to go up or down and then hit the up/down lever, the head will move that far PLUS the kerf thickness (that you can program into the Accuset)  

We have one button programmed for 1/4", 1/2", 3/4", and 1”.  These movements are used for adjustment cuts.  Say we open a face and it’s not wide enough,  we can go to one of these sets and choose how much we want to take off on the next pass.  

We can also use Auto Down to cut boards off of the log.  Say we open the first face of the log and now we want to take one or more 4/4 flitches off.  We use the Auto Down that is programmed – in our case – to 1-1/8”.   We poke that button and hit the down lever and the the head drops 1-1/8” plus the kerf.  We can cut that flitch, come back and hit the down lever again and it’ll drop another 1-1/8” and so on until we have cut as many board off that face as we want.

We use the Auto Up kind of the same way but in the other direction.  Say we adjust your cutting height to open the face at a certain point but you see that there is another short board above that cut still left in the slab, we can use Auto Up by selecting a button and then bumping the up lever.  The head will rise that 1-1/8” plus the kerf (or whatever you select) and you make the cut and remove the short slab then Auto Down to where you started and cut the short board you salvaged.

‘Pattern Mode”..   This is where you program a “stack” of cuts down.  Say we are cutting 7x9 RR ties.  We typically make flooring lumber off the outside.  We start with Manual Mode and open the first face.  This is just like you’d do it on any other mill – just adjust the head height where you think it’ll make an opening face and cut.  Then we use the Auto Down mode to cut 1-1/8” boards off that face.  Turn 90 and do the same thing in Manual Mode.  On the third face, we go to a “Program Mode” where we have pre-programmed it to make 1-1/8” cuts until we get to say 7”.  To center the heart,  we flip the log (maybe several times) until the heart is centered or we’re happy with both faces.

On the forth face, we have a “Pattern Mode" program for 1-1/8” cuts down to 9”.  Works the same as the other program but you end up with a 9” thickness in the end.

We can program and store up to 16 “Pattern” mode programs.  Any of these programs can be re-programmed so the possibilities are endless.

Here is an example;

Yesterday we were sawing survey stakes.  They measured 1/2" by 2”.  I programmed button #1 to make 1/2” drops down to 1” (because you can only saw down to 1” on a Wood-Mizer else you’ll hit the clamp or short back supports).  Then I programmed button #2 to 2” all the way to the bed.  I started by opening the first face cut in Manual mode.  Second face the same way.  

Got to the third face and I went to “Program Mode” and selected the 1/2” drop program.  I’d hit the down button until I found where I wanted to open the face and made that cut.

Then turned the log on to the forth face and go to the “Pattern Mode” button #2 where I had the 2” drops program stored and found where the first cut would be where it would make 2” slices all the way to the bed.  Because of the 2” drops,  I’d often see that there was another thinner board left above that cut.  I could use Auto Up to bring the head back up say 1-1/8” to make that cut first,  then back to “Pattern Mode” to cut the 2” thick boards or flitches - thus recovering a 1-1/8
 board from the otherwise thick slab.  

Once all the 2” cuts were made,  I turned them up on the mill, clamped low and selected the first program again with 1/2” drops and saw each cut until I was done.  Each time I brought the head back I could just bump the down lever and the head would fall 1/2" + kerf to the next cut until it got to the last cut at 1”.  Everything stops and me and the granddaughter pulled the 1/2"by 2” off the mill.

One last Accuset feature was used in the process.  That is the “Go To” mode.  Select the “Go To” mode and then one of four settings you can program to be anything you want. (we have the first set at 12”, second at 16”, third at 24” and the fourth at 32”)  Say the blade height is at 1” above the bed because you just made the last cut mentioned above and you need to get ready for the next log to be sawn.  Instead of holding the up lever until the head is some distance above the bed,  you can poke the “Go To” button and just hit the lever and no matter where the head height is,  it’ll go to that height with no other attendance.  So really the last thing I do when I’ve finished sawing a log is that I’ll “Go To” the approximate height of the next log to be sawn.  Just press the button and bump the lever and now I can go do something else while the head rises (or lowers – if it’s above that location) to that height by itself.

 



Here is a picture of the Accuset control panel.  The buttons under the display are the "Mode" buttons,  the four buttons on the right marked 1-4 are the "program" buttons.  So you poke a Mode button and then one of the four "Program" buttons to do what you want to do.  I may note that each of the four program buttons have four values stored under them.  You get to each by poking the same button from 1 to 4 times - thus 16 "Auto Up/Down" values can be stored and 16 "Patterned Mode" programs can be stored at one time.  The button to the far left is the "Go To" button.

 



Here is a close up of the display.  It's telling me that the blade is 11-25/32" above the bad at this time and that I'm in Program #1.  On the right it's telling me that I'll make 1-1/8" cuts until I get to 6-1/8".  The orange buttons below the display are "Manual", Auto Down","Auto Up" and "Pattern" modes.  

Here is a link to the Knowlege base where I discribe how to use the Accuset. It's a little outdated as it was written before the Accuset 2 came out.

http://www.forestryforum.com/cgi-bin/tips/tips.cgi?display:1048179042-18739.txt

Here is a post I made where I give step by step intructions with pictures on how to program and use the Accuset 2.

http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,37598.0.html


On the second part of your question;

No,  you have to “read” the log and figure out what to make of it.  Accuset does not scan or otherwise see the log and make any decisions for you.  It only makes very precise moves to locations or distances up/down that you program it to do.  

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Offline r.man

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Re: Accuset or simple set on a non woodmizer mill
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2010, 09:12:22 AM »
Bibbyman, thanks for the info, that was very enlightening and I appreciate you taking the time to describe the different functions. Your system sounds like it is a real time saver and waste minimizer and more elaborate than I realized. I've done repair work on two other different setworks systems but I haven't needed much operator knowledge to do it. Ideally I think a repair person should be capable of running any machine they repair as an operator is not always available to answer questions. Thanks again for the lesson in accuset.
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Offline rs1626

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Re: Accuset or simple set on a non woodmizer mill
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2010, 09:45:50 AM »
Bibbyman why don't you think accuset would be feasible i would think that the sol. would take the place of the up down motor and a up down joy stick in placee of the drum switch from what i've seen of wiring dia.

Offline Bibbyman

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Re: Accuset or simple set on a non woodmizer mill
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2010, 10:44:19 AM »
Bibbyman why don't you think accuset would be feasible i would think that the sol. would take the place of the up down motor and a up down joy stick in placee of the drum switch from what i've seen of wiring dia.

I really don't think the Accuset would be anywhere near the "plug and play" on any other mill but the one Wood-Mizer has designed it and programmed it for.  This is based on using the Accuset (original version) and the Accuset 2 for over 8 years and making an number of upgrades and doing field testing of the new Accuset 2 for Wood-Mizer.

And if you're mill has hydraulic up/down drive, even Wood-Mizer does not offer it on their one hydrostatic drive mill.  I hear because it can't control the hydraulic valve close enough to hold the accuracy.

I'm just guessing but if you were to buy the Accuset 2 components, you'd be looking at at least $3,000.00 – maybe a lot more.  Then what else would you have to buy to get it to work?  Then,  I wouldn't think Wood-Mizer would warrantee it or give you support if it's not on a Wood-Mizer mill. 

In addition,  each Accuset has base program variables set for each model, and motor/engine combination.  This is because of the deference in head weight and possibly other variables.  The Accuset logic in my unit would not function on an identical unit with say a big diesel engine because the head weight is so much different.  You'd have to start from scrach on that problem.

Just my thoughts.  Maybe "Sparks" will correct me.
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Online pineywoods

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Re: Accuset or simple set on a non woodmizer mill
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2010, 01:57:25 PM »
Along the same lines, I'm wondering about the new "simple setworks" on the older woodmizers. A friend just bought a new LT40 manual with the simple setworks. I like it. Might be a problem on mine because of the home-brew remote control.
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Re: Accuset or simple set on a non woodmizer mill
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2010, 05:29:43 PM »
On the silvatech setworks for a circular mill the setworks allows for coast which would incorporate a number of factors. The hydraulics that drive the head in can have the fluid volume adjusted to change the coast value. Might the accuset have a programmable software allowance that would accomplish the same thing? With modern electronics it would not surprise me.
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Offline ladylake

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Re: Accuset or simple set on a non woodmizer mill
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2010, 06:44:59 PM »
  I think the coast factor, how long it takes the hydraulic cylinder to quit moving after the solenoid valve is given the open or close command is kind of tough to control cuttiing from 10 above to 90 above, going from cold oil to warm oil . It will also depend on how fast the head goes up and down.   Steve
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Offline rs1626

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Re: Accuset or simple set on a non woodmizer mill
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2010, 07:52:03 PM »
my mill is driven by a hydraulic motor its max rpm is 170 and then it goes through a 40 t sproket to a 18t sproket so its not real fast up and down the sol. ports are blocked when in nuetral so it does not have any drift it will stay in same spot for weeks running or not

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Re: Accuset or simple set on a non woodmizer mill
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2010, 12:34:38 PM »
The Accuset2 system is designed around our mill. Head weight, motor speed, amp draw etc etc. This is why Bibbyman is saying putting it on anything but a Wood-Mizer mill may cause difficulties.
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Offline rs1626

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Re: Accuset or simple set on a non woodmizer mill
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2010, 06:25:57 PM »
but what all is user definable? through parameters in the control

Offline r.man

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Re: Accuset or simple set on a non woodmizer mill
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2010, 08:02:09 PM »
Rs, if it were me the biggest consideration would be "will I have much invested in the electronics when I try to adapt them". If the set was cheap, say a cast-off from someone who had upgraded, I would certainly try to make it work since it sounds fun and I expect it could be done. If I had to buy the technology new and at retail prices though I think I would seriously consider finding a system that was known to adapt to the saw I had. If you do try it I would be willing to help with some tech advice but I am not familiar with the accuset system. I do have a varied electrical background and I have picked up a bit of knowledge over the years on various control systems. Good luck either way and keep us apprised of your progress.
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Re: Accuset or simple set on a non woodmizer mill
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2010, 08:14:54 PM »
When I talked to WM about doing such a thing, they were not willing to share their source code (which is the software).  Without it you will not be able to adjust their algorithms to make it work with your hardware. 

Another big issue for me is no warranty.  I can see not covering the performance, but if a piece of hardware fails then they should cover it.  I don't know if anyone is able to do component level repair, it could become expensive if something you were doing was damaging the Accuset, and your only recourse was to purchase another $2000 box.

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Re: Accuset or simple set on a non woodmizer mill
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2010, 12:25:05 PM »
thst being said does anybody have any leftovers from a upgrade that want to sell?

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Re: Accuset or simple set on a non woodmizer mill
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2010, 06:15:13 PM »
thst being said does anybody have any leftovers from a upgrade that want to sell?

One thing to consider with the original Accuset.  It was old technology and was prone to problems and failures.  That’s why the completely redesigned it and come out with the Accuset 2.   

Although the two versions look the same on the outside,  the “insides” are all different. 

Even if you get an old version of Accuset,  and it did work when they upgraded, I’d highly suspect it wouldn’t work again even if retrofitted onto the mill it came off of.   Some of the parts could be found from a source other than Wood-Mizer but the control panel and the other boards were made by Wood-Mizer. 
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