Building my 1st Timber Frame~ Need Insight

[morningbird1]

As a new member, let me preface my question(s) with a little disclaimer that I am quite green (no pun intented) to timber framing. Though I must say I have been reading and doing a lot of research doing my best to educate myself in this regard, I still know so little

I want to keep this simple as I can so, I will convey the acting elements involved and then my questions in hope of some advice/insight from the forum.

I currently have white and red pine (80% red) harvested and ready for my Hud-son Oscar 328 sawmill. The timber was standing 2-weeks ago. I live in Northern MN, and its obviously winter. This is freshly harvested timber that is anywhere from 12" to 22" in diameter and 8'6" to 20' length. I am building a small home/cabin so I know I will need many 6"x6" and 8"x8" beams as well as rafters, girders etc in varying sizes. I was going to attempt to kiln dry them in my homemade Dehumidifier kiln but have grown hestitant due to some things I have heard/read regarding length of time to dry, warping, checking, etc. due to size of the beams I'm attempting to dry

I would essentially like to know this...

1.) Can I timber frame with "wet" timber and not dry it prior to the actual building of a structure. (plan on building this upcoming summer '12 June/July)
2.) If so, what does the Moisture Content have to be? approx? will air drying work for my time frame or can I build with it completely wet?
3.) If it is NOT, recommended to build with wet timber for this type of structure, what MC should the red pine be at to safely build?
4.) Lastly, my only form of kiln drying at this point is a self built D/h kiln. Any words of advice or warning of do's and don'ts to get the best quality timber possible? To deal with warping, cracking etc?

I know this is tossing a lot out there but I obviously need the counsel. Thank you in advance for anyone taking the time to show me the ropes:) 
best regards

[Rooster]

MB1,

Welcome to the forum.

I have good news and bad news.  The good news is that you can start cutting your timbers and not have to "dry" them.  It takes too long and the preceived benefits are not there when comparing KD sticks to green timbers...same wood, just not the same animal.  You might want to keep the logs decked off the ground until you have your plans set, drawings done, cut list complete, and the time to cut your frame.  The time between milling the beams and cutting the frame should be short to help curb the effect of checking, bowing, twisting, etc.

The bad news is that you have a lot of Red (Norway)Pine, and it is not the ideal species to timber frame with.  It is "fiberous" and stringy and doesn't tool as well as White Pine. With stick framing/ balloon framing it is great, but once you put your chisel to the Red Pine as compared to the White Pine, you will quickly see the benefits of using the Red for rafters and girts (no mortises needed), and the White for posts, tie-beams, top-plates, windbraces, ets. 

So, I'm hoping that you'll have enough White Pine (20% or your stock pile) to cut your list of beams and posts.

And agian, Welcome to the Forum!!

Rooster

[morningbird1]

Thank you for your helpful insight Rooster..
That is good info regarding the white vs red pine when it comes to chiseling out my joints....just so I understand the rest of your advice.. I DO NOt need to kiln dry my milled
timber (6"x6", 8"x8" etc) before I start building my timber frame? Is this correct? Is there an approx moisture content for my green timber that would be too high to frame with?
Is there any benefit to attempting to kiln dry vs air dry until my construction begins this summer in June?
Lastly, If framing completely wet is ok, should I mill my timber just a few weeks before I begin construction or should I mill it now, stack and sticker?

Thanks again

[Jim_Rogers]

1.) Can I timber frame with "wet" timber and not dry it prior to the actual building of a structure. (plan on building this upcoming summer '12 June/July)

Yes, you can build with fresh cut timbers. And you don't have to do anything other than air dry the timbers.

2.) If so, what does the Moisture Content have to be? approx? will air drying work for my time frame or can I build with it completely wet?

Moisture content in a timber frame is basically not necessary to worry about. We work green timbers right off the mill into frames right away.

3.) If it is NOT, recommended to build with wet timber for this type of structure, what MC should the red pine be at to safely build?

Answered above.

4.) Lastly, my only form of kiln drying at this point is a self built D/h kiln. Any words of advice or warning of do's and don'ts to get the best quality timber possible? To deal with warping, cracking etc?

First of all you need to box heart any timber over 5" x 5" in size. This will help prevent some of the warping and twisting.
Surface checks are expected in timbers and timber framing. You can't get away from it so you have to consider it character of the wood.

You need to store your logs, as mentioned correctly.
And once made into timbers stack correctly to hope to air dry evenly while you're cutting joints in other timbers.

End seal the logs as soon as possible. Get some anchorseal from UC coatings and paint it on right away, before you mill the logs.
End seal any cut end grain of the timbers after joints are cut will also help prevent end checking and splitting.

Good luck with your project.
And keep asking questions.

Jim Rogers

[morningbird1]

Fantastic, I have already learned a great deal...In my own research I have read about the "heartwood" in timber and Jim, you mentioned that I should,
"box heart any timber over 5" x 5" in size." Could you please give me a brief explanation of what that means?

So, I will end seal all of my freshly cut timbers, mill them over the next coming weeks and then properly stack and sticker them, which will air dry them until I start using them
this summer when I commence framing?

Some of my project will not be using traditional timber frame joinery (Tenon & mortise, dovetail etc) I will be using screws and metal fasteners/brackets. Will this type of non-traditional joinery cause issue with green or wet timber?

Thanks you guys have been great.

[Rooster]

MB1,

Jim beat me to the punch!!  haha

But here's my response anyways.  (I always like it when my advice matches Jim's)

You might have to force yourself to think out side the box on this project. Kiln dried wood is needed for woodworking, cabinet making, and to meet code on commercially produced construction lumber.  It is the stability created by the drying process that is desired in these types of construction.  If a kiln dried 20ft 2x4 has a slight twist to it, usually you can either force it straight or just pick a different stick from the pile...can't do either of those with a dry 32ft 8x10.

I would pick out which logs I would want to use from your stock pile, seal the ends, deck them off the ground, wait and mill them within a couple of weeks of cutting your frame.  Moisture content at this point is not an issue...cut your frame "green/wet"...it's ok.  The applied theory behind all of this is that all the timbers will be milled at the same time, dry at the same relative rate, and if you cut the frame and assemble it soon after, any twisting and moving will be done with all of the joint assembled.  Once it's together, it's together..you don't have to worry as much about trying to force a top-plate onto the tenon of a twisted post after it has been sitting in a stickered stack of beams for 8 months.

Now to put this idea into a real life situation, the 100+ yr. old barns that I work on were also cut and assemble green... and over the many decades the beams within the frame dried, shrunk in width, checked, twisted, bowed, split, and on and on...  Sometimes the movement is so bad that I can't even drive out the trunnels to dissassemble the frame.

So if you want to start milling, cut what you need for rafters (common), flooring, girts/siding nailers, and any other small dimensional lumber you might need and go and sticker all of that...under cover, and out of the sunlight...but I would wait on the beams.

I hope this helps,

Rooster

[Jim_Rogers]

I think I posted a story here about boxed heart timbers.

I think it's called "boxed heart or not".

You'll need to do a search here and see if you can find these pictures.

Recently I wrote an eBook on how to do this. That is "how to cut boxed heart timbers".

If you'd like to buy a copy, I'll think I can email you one.

I'm not completely sure what you mean by: "Could you please give me a brief explanation of what that means?"

It means you box the heart of the tree. The heart is the pith or center of the tree's annual rings.
When you look at the end grain of a log you'll see the pith/heart and that needs to be in the center of any timber 5" x 5" and larger on both ends of the timber.
That means one timber per log.
Boards and planks off the outside as you mill towards that center timber.

Does that help you?

Jim Rogers

[morningbird1]

Rooster- Thank you for your insight as well, all of the information you have provided has been more than useful and I am thankful for your response.

Jim- Please send the info to purchase your e-book as I will certainly consider purchasing one. I completely understand what you are saying regarding the "heart" of the timber I just hadn't learned what the terminology was yet 1 beam per timber is what I have been doing, pulling off whatever dimensional pieces I can (2x4's and 1x materials) as I work my way to the "center" of the timber for my final beam (6"x6" etc).

So, I believe I am pretty clear on this so far thanks to the both of you. I will kiln dry all my smaller dimensions (1x's and 2x's) but will not Kiln dry the beams (5"x5" and bigger) in the kiln. I can build wet and should wait to mill my timber into beams until a few weeks before I build as to avoid warping and twist that could happen if I mill now, regardless if I air dry or kiln dry? That way I can have as many variables as possible be the same for the entire stock of timber. I will end seal all of my logs now, deck them and wait to mill until its go time. Sound like I got it?

Lastly, and I don't want to ask too many questions but this has been very informative and fascinating....Since I will more than likely wait to mill my beams until I am ready to build and they will be very "wet/green" when I do so...will there be any concern about mold/fungi on the interior of the cabin/house since much of the beams will be exposed or cased in the wall? The thought occured to me so I thought I should ask.

Thanks a bunch you guys have been absolutely tip top

[Jim_Rogers]

Some of my project will not be using traditional timber frame joinery (Tenon & mortise, dovetail etc) I will be using screws and metal fasteners/brackets. Will this type of non-traditional joinery cause issue with green or wet timber?

If you are using brackets with bolts and fasteners, I can't help you. Other than to say you need to do it correctly.

Doing it wrong is very bad:



Understanding where to put the bolts is very important was well as the number of bolts and their sizes.
I always suggest that the design be reviewed by a structural engineer experienced in such things and to follow his suggestions.

Jim Rogers

PS send me an email via the regular email system and I'll send you some info on how to get a eBook cd.

[Magicman]

Welcome to the Forestry Forum, morningbird1.   

[Thehardway]

Morningbird,

Jim and Rooster covered it all pretty well from my view and there is only a couple tidbits I might like to add.  Timberframing in its most pure vein is very much free form.  Don't feel like things have to be 6X6 or 8X8 or even square.  You are not restricted to dimensions you would buy from a big box store.  Often times, especially for bearing beams,  an odd number dimension  (ie. 7X15)  will work better than even numbers.  Cut the logs in a way that provides the most strength for the diameter log you have and take into consideration the characteristics of each log such as knots and natural bends, twists and turns.  Things like grain run out knots at a mortice or tenon location, and other structural defects can either make or break (pun intended) your frame.

In some species, spiral grain can cause a timber to twist as it dries.  These are best culled as they can literally tear themselves apart in a frame.  My frame is largely yellow pine and this is one of the afflictions yellow pine suffers.  Take a look at some PT 4X4 posts at your local lumberyard and you will see what I mean.  Some look like propellers.

Being that you are felling the trees in winter the moisture content should be fairly low.  Strip the bark off of them immediately to avoid getting bugs in them during storage.

If your walls have a vapor barrier only on one side, and they should,  They will breathe on the other side and you should not have a  problem with mold/mildew from the moisture they have in them.

Don't be decieved, framing with green timbers will leave you with checks in the face of the timbers.  White pine is probably the least susceptible to this but it will still happen.  If properly boxed, checks are not a problem structurally.  It only affects the visual appearance.

Shrinkage is not so much a problem when you allow for it. Don't expect any housed joints to stay tight if you cut them green. You will get gaps.

Have fun, stay safe and welcome to the forum.  You can't ask too many questions here and no question is a dumb question.  We all learn together.
 

[morningbird1]

Thank you to Thehardway, I appreciate you affirmation of the other individuals who gave me some insight, as well as the additional thoughts you've shared.
I will be using a vapor barrier on one side to help the structure breath, though I do have a question about the beams that will be exposed on the interior of the structure (walls, girders, rafters etc) Is there any type of treatment that I need to give to them? I was reading about someone wiping all the beams down with linseed oil?
Any merit to this or should the beams just air dry over time once the structure is complete?
thanks