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Author Topic: serious diesel motor problem , please help !  (Read 4750 times)

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Offline UNCLEBUCK

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serious diesel motor problem , please help !
« on: November 04, 2004, 02:15:33 PM »
My old 3 cylinder industrial ford diesel motor started blowing black smoke and losing power plus white steam rolling out the oil cap breather so I just put on a new head gasket and torqued the head down in 3 different setting up to 110 pounds for the final torque .  I snapped one headbolt on the final torque located more towards the center of the head near a cylinder . I changed oil and filter ,added new anti-freeze ,started it up and 5 minutes later the dipstick got fuller and the oil turned grayish and steam started rolling out the oil breather cap again . "MY QUESTION " will one snapped headbolt cause this kind of trouble and when I take the head off again can I use this brand new head gasket . I am hoping that the snapped headbolt is the new problem . I know I should have replaced the snapped headbolt before I fired it up but I was so close to done . Can someone help me please , thank you
UNCLEBUCK    bridge burner/bridge mender

Offline Jeff

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Re: serious diesel motor problem , please help !
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2004, 02:23:18 PM »
Certainly it might be the problem. Or an added problem. An analogy might be: If you turn your Tupperware upside down without one place being sealed will your Guacamole seep out?

When you had the head off did you check it and the block with a machine edge? No warp?

Just call me the midget doctor.
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Offline UNCLEBUCK

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Re: serious diesel motor problem , please help !
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2004, 02:32:29 PM »
thanks jeff , I will take the head off and check it with a straight edge and replace the snapped bolt and give it another try , if it happens again then I will park it and take a year to fix it .
UNCLEBUCK    bridge burner/bridge mender

Offline Bro. Noble

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Re: serious diesel motor problem , please help !
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2004, 02:44:06 PM »
Did you see a bad place in the old gasket where water was getting into the oil?  You want to be sure you are fixing the right problem.  Chances are the broken stud is the problem,  but I'd want to make sure.  Check for cracks in the head while it's off.  A machine shop can do a better job of checking and I would reccomend that if there is any doubt.  You can probably get by with using the new gasket.  If they are costly and the head is easy to change.  If it doesn't hold,  at least by then you would be a pro at changing the gasket.  Look the valves over good while you got the head off.

Jeff,  How thick is the guacamole?  When I'm around,  there's never any left over ;D
milking and logging and sawing and milking

Offline J_T

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Re: serious diesel motor problem , please help !
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2004, 03:05:55 PM »
I don't think you'll get by using that gaskett again to much compression on those motors . Bet you find a cracked valve seat .  Sorry to sound so bad .You mak can get the head magfluxed cheep.
Jim Holloway

Offline Dom

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Re: serious diesel motor problem , please help !
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2004, 03:24:10 PM »
Have the head checked. Did you replace the bolts when you put in the new gasket? Most engines require that you change the bolts everytime you open up the head.

Offline twoodward15

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Re: serious diesel motor problem , please help !
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2004, 05:39:38 PM »
yeah, prolly cracked head.  if you need to use that gasket again, I'd get some of that spray on gasket copper or silver crap.  I'd sooner use a new one, but if'n it's expensive I'd try it again.  Check the areas between the cylinders for any blow through, especially at the center cyilinder where the head bolt busted.
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Offline DanG

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Re: serious diesel motor problem , please help !
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2004, 05:40:15 PM »
 You have some troubleshooting to do. First, why did it blow a head gasket, to start with?  Look at the old gasket and see where it blew. This will give you a place to start. Is there a burnt valve?? This will probably indicate a cracked valve seat. If there is any indication of a problem on the head, get it magnafluxed. It ain't all that expensive. :)

Get new head bolts!  Clean up the threads of the bolts and their holes with the appropriate tap and die.

An old Indian trick, taught to me by and old Indian: (actually he was an old diesel mechanic ;))   When you get your new gasket, and have checked out everything, paint the gasket with aluminum paint. Coat it good on both sides and let it dry overnight. Coat it again the same way, and install it wet.

Should the magnaflux show a crack, don't let them weld it until you shop around. Chances are, you can get a rebuilt head cheaper with less chance of a problem.  First place I would check is   www.doverheads.com

Good luck, and remember; Diesel engine repair is no more difficult than gas burners, but they're a lot less forgiving. Ya gotta do it right! :)
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Offline duke401

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Re: serious diesel motor problem , please help !
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2004, 06:07:46 PM »
it could be in the piston sleavs or a block problem too!!!!!
duke

Offline DanG

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Re: serious diesel motor problem , please help !
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2004, 06:24:03 PM »
Yer eggsackly right, Duke. I shoulda mentioned that. Examination of the original gasket should tell a tale, here. If, indeed it was blown, you should be able to track down the cause. I learned from experience that trial and error troubleshooting can be expensive and time consuming.
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
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Offline Mark M

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Re: serious diesel motor problem , please help !
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2004, 08:19:50 PM »
If you are trying to run it with the broken head bolt that can definatly cause the symptoms you are seeing. You might be able to back it out and replace it without taking the engine  apart. I once had a Olds diesel that developed a bad case of compression getting in the radiator. Wouldn't do it at idle but as soon as you speed ed up it would build up pressure so fast that the water pump seal acted as a relief valve and blew water out from behind the pulley. I pulled the head and in the process found the broken bolt. I kept going but found no problem with the head gasket. I put new bolts in and put it back together. About a year later I was driving with a friend and approached a stop sign. When I went to step on the brakes there was next to nothing. I exclaimed "sh*t I just broke a head bolt!" My friend looked at me like I was nuts but when I opened the hood sure enough the water pump seal was venting pressure and coolant all over the fan belt and the steering pump was slipping. This time I just replaced the head bolts one at a time without taking the engine apart. Luckily I could just unscrew the broken bolt. I car lasted another 2 or 3 years without any problems.

Good Luck

Offline UNCLEBUCK

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Re: serious diesel motor problem , please help !
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2004, 10:41:41 PM »
well I got the cracked headbolt out without removing the head so I will try a new bolt first and will change the oil and filter again and fill the radiator and let it idle and keep checking the dipstick . If it happens again then I will take the head off . There was no external leaks at all with this new head gasket . The old head gasket was so paper thin and melted in spots but I will get a closer look at it . Its a ford diesel industrial motor in my old wore out backhoe but I am lost without it but I will do as you all mentioned and if it ends up a block problem its going down the road . The pistons and valves all looked just fine . I lost one gallon of anti-freeze today just at a idle after 5 minutes . I may have cooked it pretty good this time because I had to limp it home a half mile and I kept loosing power and the black smoke and white steam rolling out it didnt look good . I should have shut it down and walked home and then figured it out . Its a heavy little motor ,the oil pan is like 3/8 inch thick steel , I will see what happens tomorrow . I am praying that its just the bolt . Thanks for all your inputs everyone . I have beat this tractor into the ground for 20 years and it just never dies . I feel bad now and its my fault for not walking home .  :-/
UNCLEBUCK    bridge burner/bridge mender

Offline Mark M

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Re: serious diesel motor problem , please help !
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2004, 06:49:21 AM »
Uncle

You might want to do your testing with water instead of antifreeze. If you do have an internal leak it is a lot easier on the bearings. Also run without the radiator cap and look for bubbles in the coolant. If you have a combustion chamber leak (head gasket, cracked head, cracked block. etc.) you will see bubbles in the coolant. It may be just a few or it might be violent bubbling.

You mentioned you broke the bolt when you were torquing it down. Did you follow Ford's torque sequence and spec? How big are the bolts? Did you clean the holes as DanG suggested and use oil on the threads and under the bolt head?

This isn't likely but have you been adding the corrosion inhibitor to your cooling system? This is an absolute MUST for diesel engines. Without it your liners can and will pit all the way through and coolant can fill the cylinder. As I said this isn't likely because when it happens it's really easy to tell because you usually have a rod sticking out the side of the block. :o :( >:(

Mark

Offline MrMoo

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Re: serious diesel motor problem , please help !
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2004, 07:29:03 AM »
Uncle,
You may want to look for a hole in your cylinder sleeves.

Last year my backhoe was running hot & losing antifreeze. I found it in the crankcase. Took it to my brother in law who is a diesel mechanic & he took the engine apart & found one of the cylinder sleeves had been eaten thru by the coolant. I guess the coolant can get corrosive in a diesel engine that's why they add conditioner to them. I ended up doing an engine job.

Hope your problem was your head but if it isn't that I'd start looking lower.

Mike

Offline redpowerd

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Re: serious diesel motor problem , please help !
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2004, 08:37:32 AM »
cavitation sucks!

did you readjust all the head bolts after fixin the broken one?
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Offline ScottAR

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Re: serious diesel motor problem , please help !
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2004, 08:40:59 AM »
Mr. Moo

Cavatation...  Tiny water bubbles form on the cylinder sleeve walls and when they pop, they make a tiny divot.   Years and years go by and the tiny divots become a hole. and then bad things happen as you have already seen.  

UB, I hope that hasn't happened...  Backhoes are fun...  
Scott
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Offline MrMoo

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Re: serious diesel motor problem , please help !
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2004, 10:18:59 AM »
Scott,
You're saying cavitation is caused by bubbles. So I guess what I was told about the coolant being corrosive is not true. Is that correct?
Mike

Offline ScottAR

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Re: serious diesel motor problem , please help !
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2004, 10:27:16 AM »
Coolant is somewhat corrosive, but not extremely so,  not much more than the water that it's in.  
The additives for Diesel engines are to break the surface tension of the water so the little bubbles don't form or at least reduce their number.  

Which reminds me, I need to test my powerstroke's coolant before it gets colder...  
Scott
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Offline UNCLEBUCK

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Re: serious diesel motor problem , please help !
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2004, 11:36:56 AM »
wow thank you all for this feedback , everybody !  I decided to take the head off and look for the things everyone has said and it looks good . The bolt hole where the cracked bolt came out of was full of coolant all the way up to the valve rack . I got 14 new headbolts coming from ford in fargo,nd and right now with the head off I filled up a coolant port on the top of the block and am going to go look right now if it all went through the oil pan drain plug and laying in my coffee can . I read in the I.T. manual that there is 500 psi in the cylinder so now I can understand why I am losing guacemoley ? I never been faced with this problem . Its either going to end up simple or quitw the opposite . Mark I only put straight anti-freeze in it . I guess I am on hold until monday but I will finish this with some pics and tell how or what was the cause . thanks again . It will be interesting to see if my poor judgement and too cheap to buy new headbolts when I got the new gasket was where I got into trouble , I lift that head off myself and I seeing white spots in my eyes for a few minutes . what a chunk ! :o
UNCLEBUCK    bridge burner/bridge mender

Offline redpowerd

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Re: serious diesel motor problem , please help !
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2004, 11:52:33 AM »
roll it off with wooden dowels ;D
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