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450C dual arch grapple,

Started by BargeMonkey, February 19, 2014, 07:54:53 PM

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BargeMonkey

 Headed up to northern NH this weekend to check out a 450C dual arch grapple, seems like a decent skidder. All chained up, 24.5x32. Has anyone run one of these enough, ive never owned a grapple and I think im ready to jump. Any idea on fuel use ? Between the Timbco and slasher Im wondering if this will pick up the pace compared to my 440D  lol....

kiko

With a properly functioning 450c production should go way up. IMHO it is the best skidder ever made,  however transmission repair can get costly.

loggah

Pretty sure it will out perform your 440 !!!!!   ;D ;D is it a private sale?  i may know the owner!! If its at Oliver stores they are good guys, if its at Eddie Nash and son you  will realllly want to look it over well. They have a lot of machines and a lot of them are from down south ,look good but convertor could be bad ,and buying a skidder with a torque convertor issue is hard to tell in the winter. If i was to buy a used skidder with a torque convertor it would be on one of the hottest days of the summer. I believe the 450 c has a Clark transmission ,there generally pretty good. I know a lot of guys that used to run them and the machines are only as good as their maintenance progrem. I know of one outfit from up north that bought them brand new and 3 years later they were a roving junkpile !!!!. Don
Interests: Lombard Log Haulers,Tucker Sno-Cats, Circular Sawmills, Shingle Mills, Maple Syrup Making, Early Construction Equipment, Logging Memorabilia, and Antique Firearms

Bobus2003

Ran one for a couple years on and off (When i wasnt Running Boom) It was a good pulling machine(Believe it was a '94 model), as long as the grapple held the wood it would pull it, sometimes riding a wheelie for a few moments, but it would pull it. As for production you'll be gaining alot. Ours was pulling 10-15 loads a day feeding a Boom Delimber, and we never pushed it too hard.

This was the Girl:




nhlogga

Quote from: BargeMonkey on February 19, 2014, 07:54:53 PM
Headed up to northern NH this weekend to check out a 450C dual arch grapple, seems like a decent skidder. All chained up, 24.5x32. Has anyone run one of these enough, ive never owned a grapple and I think im ready to jump. Any idea on fuel use ? Between the Timbco and slasher Im wondering if this will pick up the pace compared to my 440D  lol....

If it's the one on Craigslist it looks like a good machine. Cummins engine, Clark transmission, possibly a Deere winch. Friend of mine had one and had no trouble with it. It will definately increase your production.
Jonsered 2260
Husky 562xp

BargeMonkey

Yeah I was looking for a powerplant the other night and found it, looks pretty clean with new rubber and chain on back, and 70% front. Has just over 8k hours, motor was done 300 hours ago. Im hoping it will pick up my production, if I get 1-2 load a day cutting behind my 440D im doing good. Any tips to check that torque converter in the cold ?

Southside

HP and weight wise it is almost identical to my Franklin with a single arch.  Sounds like it has nicer features, but strictly from a pulling standpoint there will be no comparison to your 440.  I went from a 540A to my 170 - can't compare the production at all, fill the grapple with everything it will hold and drive away like its not even there.  As for fuel consumption - they do drink more than the old JD, but you are doing a lot more work at pretty much 3X the HP.  Yes my fuel bill went up, but my production increased in greater proportion. 
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

240b

I went to look at that machine. be prepared....

loggah

It looks good in the pictures, decent tires tight chains has blade extensions. all i can say is run it and try to get the convertor to heat.once its warmed run it in third or fourth gear. If i knew who has the machine i could ask a few guys in the jefferson, lancaster area ,the other jobbers usually know whats going on with the other loggers machines!! ;D
Interests: Lombard Log Haulers,Tucker Sno-Cats, Circular Sawmills, Shingle Mills, Maple Syrup Making, Early Construction Equipment, Logging Memorabilia, and Antique Firearms

BargeMonkey

The guys name is Anthony, in jefferson. Its a 6 hour drive from here, I hope to not be disappointed to bad.

240b

thats the one it was a foster bros machine from littleton.

loggah

If it was one of Foster brothers machines look it over real well !!!!  they been out of business for a while so the machine probably has been totally rebuilt by now!!!!! I was in the timberland machines shop years ago the timberjack dealer talking to their service manager Jim Kennison and he says check this out, Foster brothers machine a little over a year old ,front cradle pins worn thru so bad the cradle had hammered a hole in the oil pan!!! not to mention the frame cracked by the winch. Those guys were highball and they were the ones that ruin a new machine in less then 3 years . Like i said i probably has been completely rebuilt if it was one of theirs.
Interests: Lombard Log Haulers,Tucker Sno-Cats, Circular Sawmills, Shingle Mills, Maple Syrup Making, Early Construction Equipment, Logging Memorabilia, and Antique Firearms

240b

it hasnt been rebuilt.  run hard and put away wet,  comes to mind..  jim did alot of work on my skidders when they were open. seems like i was in lancaster alot getting parts in those days...  loggah, i bought a 380b that came from you area  was a great skidder, cant remember the guys name. he had two of them was getting a new grapple  this was in '02-03..

loggah

Hmm, i cant think of anyone right close by that had 2 380's  ,  maybe it will come to me!!! ;D  timberland had quite a crew at one time,to bad they closed their doors, they moved a bunch of skidders all over New England.
Interests: Lombard Log Haulers,Tucker Sno-Cats, Circular Sawmills, Shingle Mills, Maple Syrup Making, Early Construction Equipment, Logging Memorabilia, and Antique Firearms

nhlogga

Quote from: loggah on February 22, 2014, 01:16:23 PM
Hmm, i cant think of anyone right close by that had 2 380's  ,  maybe it will come to me!!! ;D  timberland had quite a crew at one time,to bad they closed their doors, they moved a bunch of skidders all over New England.

Did Timberleand Machinery become Chadwick BaRoss?
Jonsered 2260
Husky 562xp

240b


nhlogga

Quote from: 240b on February 22, 2014, 03:57:48 PM
yes

My grandfather bought a couple new 'Jacks from them in the late '70s and early '80s and a Clark Ranger too in the mid '80s. I think they all came from Concord branch.
Jonsered 2260
Husky 562xp

BargeMonkey

 The machine needs to have little stuff done to it, I couldnt find anything really wrong enough to say no. Steering pins have some slop, centers are pretty tight. The machine has set around for a while, mice had done a number in the cab. I looked it over but im not an expert. Hopefully it doesnt bite me in the ass to bad. Thank god for a fidelity account, and a local guy up there should do the trucking fairly cheap.

BargeMonkey

 Its gotten a new engine about 300 hours ago. Plunger pump leaks a little. Needs a kill cable and switch. Ive seen worse for more money. Arch pins wherent to bad, winch worked. Axle plugs where froze, only thing that scared me. I think a few days in the shop it will clean up.

loggah

Did you pick the front up with the blade and see how much slop was in the cradle pins? usually you can tell right off after the wheels leave the ground.
Interests: Lombard Log Haulers,Tucker Sno-Cats, Circular Sawmills, Shingle Mills, Maple Syrup Making, Early Construction Equipment, Logging Memorabilia, and Antique Firearms

240b

the day i ran it the disc brake dragged and heated up really well..  also the tranny psi was low but didnt spike when shifting gears, the other concern i had was the engine oil psi never got over 40 which seemed low for a 300 hr motor..its got nice tires and chains.. good luck with the new machine.   did the guy fix the starter key switch or was it still a screw driver? that cracked me up..

IMOWOOD

it also says its a 96 in the add they quit making 450's in 95

CCC4

Quote from: BargeMonkey on February 19, 2014, 07:54:53 PM
Headed up to northern NH this weekend to check out a 450C dual arch grapple, seems like a decent skidder. All chained up, 24.5x32. Has anyone run one of these enough, ive never owned a grapple and I think im ready to jump. Any idea on fuel use ? Between the Timbco and slasher Im wondering if this will pick up the pace compared to my 440D  lol....

BargeMonkey, my boss just got a dual arched 450c here recently. he is putting a new long block in it and I will be able to try it out in the woods pretty soon! The dual arch is a pretty neat setup from what I can tell, we have a lot of ledges in steep rough ground and the dual arch is supposed to be able to reach down under the bluffs and grab logs. Also it will reach and grab hitches further behind you than a regular grapple.

As far as the production rate difference between a 440 and a 450C grapple skidder....people might get pissy about my answer due to the large volume of people on here that run little skidders...but I'm a glutten for punishment. I will say this...if I had to choose between a 440 and a good draft horse....I'd take the horse ALL DAY! The 440 are excellent in small tight timber such as Eastern Red Cedar or pine poles or something, but for production rates..they are just too small for my liking and almost "toy" like compared to a 450C. I know, I know....that is harsh, but in my opinion it's the truth.

I should have the dual arch on my set this week maybe and I will kick the OP off of it and run out through the woods and try it out maybe even shoot a video while I'm steeling the OP's rig! LMAO!

I would take into consideration what was mentioned about checking out the machine very well! Man you should have contacted my boss about a skidder, nothing leaves here not in good running fashion. I am going to link a video of a 450C wearing 30.5s, I have posted the vid before but I believe this skidder is for sale. *DanG good skidder, daily runner, new motor, entirely new cradle etc. The cradle was just put in last week. The motor is less than a month old, built from the ground up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_MzfYkAg5k&list=UU_NjqCPS3PCA_PGz4NCZuLA&feature=c4-overview


1270d

looks like you have the slick clay mud.   yuck.  not that any mud is nice.   you walk across the landing and get 3 inches taller with mud on the boots?

BargeMonkey

I couldnt see alot of slop in the front cradle. Some wear in steering and arch pins. Drive line seemed tight.  I think the caliper is dragging on the driveline brake. The problem I was up against was I WILL NOT have a skidder with 30.5 tires, 24.5 is almost to big. I cut alot of small woodlots and the homeowners stare now at how wide stuff is. Im going to get her home and send my mechanic thru it. I saw about 1k worth of repairs it needed, counting a complete service. Ive hunted high and low for a dual arch not all beat to hell with 24.5 tires and I hope this one works. Getting off the tugboats for a while to get wood cut ahead, my stuff sits minimum 2 weeks a month, time to get it done.

CCC4

My boss sells at a minimum of 5 sets of skidder tires a month...he would put whatever size the buyer would want. I know what you mean about the 30.5's they are just too wide! That skidder only goes to heavy cuts. We have one skidder on a tract i am cutting that has fairly tall tires but skinny...don't know the size of them, but they look like tractor tires. I sort of like it on steep ground so far. I have had to run it several times and it seems to do really well on the narrow tires.

Good luck man!

riverlogger

Hello Barge. I have been on here asking a million questions about my new to me 230 tj but man I have a lot and I mean a lot of hours on those machines like you are looking at/bought. As far as I can tell everything you have been told so far is spot on. If it where mine I would check all of the hoses under the cab area before I even hit the woods with it. Other than the trans problems that are the weak link on those machines the hoses under the cab go to that hot place below at about 4-6k hours and will cause you to pull your hair out in the woods. As for power and production you will for sure be all smiles when you grab a big drag with that monster. Man in the 90's that machine was the stud that others where judged by as far as im concerned. I have ran them all in the later model series....Clark "Southland Special" VME which was a later model clark. Cat, Tiger Cat and Tree Farmer just to list a few and man for my money that 450 was the man back then. Good luck and give er hell.

loggah

The 660 Franklin i had had 30.5 rubber but it was less then 10'wide with chains on. With the center oscillation the axles are narrower then machines with a cradle front end. The dual arch worked great and i put the big franklin winch on it ,177 h.p. cummins same h.p. as the 480 timberjack. I think the Franklin was a more stable machine then the Timberjacks because of the the center oscillation , but in a super hard pull the timberjack was just a bit better because when the front of the Franklin lifted the cab assembly would try and tilt to the side. You would have to fight this by trying to keep it straight with the steering cylinders. I really liked the Franklin !!!
Interests: Lombard Log Haulers,Tucker Sno-Cats, Circular Sawmills, Shingle Mills, Maple Syrup Making, Early Construction Equipment, Logging Memorabilia, and Antique Firearms

Dave Shepard

I hope it works out well for you! A friend of mine has a 450, not sure of the series, but it's still a real 'Jack, not yet a Deere. It is a beast. I've been running the 208 in the woods this week getting my skid trail sorted out, and I can't imagine running a 450 or 648 in my woods.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

BargeMonkey

 Its a 95' 450C, I got pictures of the VIN tag for insurance. Its a beast of a machine, Im hoping to get it down here after I get off the boat. Deere winch worked fine, I think shes going to get fenders welded onto her, and a few extra sliders. Anyone ever welded big fenders on a dual arch grapple..?  Am I asking for trouble ?

240b

my 515 came with out fenders, i bought a set from the parts dept at cat..  they helped having them  I think. you could bend them if your not careful. but some folks can break anything..   

loggah

I put fenders on mine,just make sure they aren't to high in the middle and hit on the grapple frame when its extended way out.i didnt have any issues ,lots of times on a long pull i would use the winch with 10 cable chokers you can get a bunch more wood in that way, and once the hitch was brought in i would put the grapple around it as far as it would go. this worked really well coming down steep ground held the wood back so you could still steer well,instead of having the wood jammed against the machine
Interests: Lombard Log Haulers,Tucker Sno-Cats, Circular Sawmills, Shingle Mills, Maple Syrup Making, Early Construction Equipment, Logging Memorabilia, and Antique Firearms

BargeMonkey

 We get steel "drops" or cut offs from our local steel yard at reasonable prices so I think some 3/4 plate should do the trick. What do you think about putting a pusher plate on top of the arch ?  Ive seen them but didnt know if it was useful or foolish.

CCC4

I have always thought that some sort of pusher back there would be wicked! I can't think of a better cosmetic/resourceful addition to a skidder. I want to see pics if you do it! ...please! LOL!

BargeMonkey

 If I could ever figure out how to do it off my phone I would upload quite a few. Where I live is horrible for service. Yeah some paint, steel and a complete service and I should be dragging wood with it once I get home off the boat. I do alot of "danger trees" near house, hate doing them but I get suckered in and thought maybe a pusher on the arch would do the trick. We have had enough snow this year I may even add brackets to the blade to mount my 10ft 1way snow plow.

loggah

I put a tree pusher on the top of my Franklin dual arch grapple it worked great!!! I built it off the big box tubing frame  with a piece of 1" thick plate and then i took another piece of 1"x4" and welded it on edge for a stiffener ,you need to make it as strong as possible !! you can get up to about 12' up on a tree ,and you got all kinds of pressure you can put on it hydraulically. I really wish i had taken a few pictures ,but i was busy logging and didn't even think of photographs at the time !!!I had a one way highway for my  franklin I just cut a few slots thru the blade  and ran the snowplow push frame thru the slots and put a couple of big clevis thru the holes and a chain to the top of the blade  to lift the blade with.
Interests: Lombard Log Haulers,Tucker Sno-Cats, Circular Sawmills, Shingle Mills, Maple Syrup Making, Early Construction Equipment, Logging Memorabilia, and Antique Firearms

loggah

Bargemonkey,  The best thing to do for fenders is get a set of the bolt on tree farmer fenders and weld them on ,years ago i bought a set off Loggers equip in Glens falls , my brother may have a set he took off his c6 when they put the skyworker on it. I started a thread on my franklin and shows the tree pusher i put on my dual arch. Don
Interests: Lombard Log Haulers,Tucker Sno-Cats, Circular Sawmills, Shingle Mills, Maple Syrup Making, Early Construction Equipment, Logging Memorabilia, and Antique Firearms

1270d

Quote from: loggah on February 26, 2014, 05:19:41 PM
Bargemonkey,  The best thing to do for fenders is get a set of the bolt on tree farmer fenders and weld them on ,years ago i bought a set off Loggers equip in Glens falls , my brother may have a set he took off his c6 when they put the skyworker on it. I started a thread on my franklin and shows the tree pusher i put on my dual arch. Don

what is the skyworker?

loggah

He put an Aerial lift bucket on a 1988 C6D  tree farmer for his tree business, he had to take the rear fenders off to do it because of the rear outriggers.
Interests: Lombard Log Haulers,Tucker Sno-Cats, Circular Sawmills, Shingle Mills, Maple Syrup Making, Early Construction Equipment, Logging Memorabilia, and Antique Firearms

BargeMonkey

 Hmmm... I will send you PM, if you had a set or knew of a set im interested. Yeah I see fenders and a pusher in the future. Now ive gotta figure out a "push pull" tube set up for my landing loader so I can just grab it with the grapple. I bought a self propelled Barko loader 6 months ago but she is helpless once you get off decent road. 

loggah

The guy that i worked with for years had his hood loader on an old r model mack, it was a pain, always another engine to get started,registrations, general maintenance, well after a while i convinced him to get rid of the truck and we put the crane on a regular crane trailer . it was made so you could just move it around in the yard with the grapple , or even his 518 cat cable skidder. the other good thing was you could pile wood all around it without worrying about a cab,engine ,etc. where the grapple would hitch on the trailer front was like 2 pieces of well casing spread apart with 1/2" flat plate welded top and bottom so it was about 3' wide,and then had a piece of 4x8 box tubing welded across the front so the grapple wont slip off.
Interests: Lombard Log Haulers,Tucker Sno-Cats, Circular Sawmills, Shingle Mills, Maple Syrup Making, Early Construction Equipment, Logging Memorabilia, and Antique Firearms

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