Management Questions

[BlaBla]

I visited some family woodland that we are interested in managing. I'm in contact with the local MDC forester, but I'm not really sure what that means. This thread entails what I have already learned here about this specific land.

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=7335.0

On the visit I learned a lot about the land, but I can't really translate what I learned without a little more experience. First, the land appeared very stocked/overstocked. I did an approximate basal area test as detailed by the MDC forest management book. From what I gained basal area was above 90 square feet an acre and probably more like 110-130/acre. The trees were a mix of white oak, red oak, hickory or pecan(I think), and a few black walnuts. The biggest marketable trees were 20-22". There were a good number of trees between 17" and 20". A very rough estimate would be  5-10 of these trees above 17" an acre. There was an abundance of trees 4-12" and several between 12" and 17". I'm sorry if this description is completely worthless. I didn't take enough pictures and now I'm paying for it.

Anyway from the description of the stocking and the size of trees, what will likely be the next move of managing?

Also on managing the land, I'm having trouble finding property boundaries. Survey sticks look to be nonexistent or very hard to find. Two sides of the property are road and another side is fenced(though I'm not sure where the property line is), and the other side is not marked at all. I talked to a local surveyor and he said it will cost me $2000 to $7000 for a survey. How do you all deal with property boundaries without a survey?

Thanks

[BlaBla]

Pictures:

[img width=400 --Photos MUST be in the Forestry Forum gallery!!!!!--.com/albums/y274/Shaggs2/DSC00655.jpg[/img]

[img width=400 --Photos MUST be in the Forestry Forum gallery!!!!!--.com/albums/y274/Shaggs2/dsc00648opt.jpg[/img]

[img width=400 --Photos MUST be in the Forestry Forum gallery!!!!!--.com/albums/y274/Shaggs2/DSC00653.jpg[/img]

[Tom]

It would be very beneficial, if not necessary, to have a survey, If for no other reason than to protect you from encroachment or to keep you from encroaching.  Many properties without current surveys may have surveys of record where corners are established.   A surveyor may find your corners for you for a small sum.  If you feel capable of cutting the line accurately, that may be all that is reaquired for now.

[Robert R]

I can't answer your management questions, I was just curious about where abouts in Missouri your land is.  I know from my own very limited personal experience that it will be difficult to find someone to come cut for you (if that is what you are interested in) trees of that size.  Being on this forum, you are probably planning on cutting it yourself.  Please share what ever more info you glean from the MDC concerning managing you woodland as it will probably relate very nicely to the areas I cut in.  Right now, I just walk with the landowner and mark what they say they want cut.  Sometimes they have had a forester out and sometimes not but we are usually only removing a handful of specific trees and not trying to manage the whole plot.  Good luck.  I am anxious to hear the other responses.

[beenthere]

You say no survey, but do you have a land description from a deed or title, or the tax assessor?
Aerial photos is one place to start too. With a land description, one can sometimes get pretty close to the expected boundary.

Maybe walk it with adjoining neighbors who may know where their boundaries are, or think they know. Might help establish yours at the same time. If uncertain, then a survey might be necessary if re-assigning ownership (estate settlement?) is in the near future, or recent past.

[BlaBla]

Thanks for the quick replies.

Robert R.-the land is near West Plains. I will not be cutting it myself, unless trees below about 10" need girdling or felling.

What are the diameters of mature trees of these species?

Tom-When you say surveys of record, do you mean pipes in the ground or other markers showing the corners? The surveyor told me that the land probably wasn't surveyed for the harvest 32 years ago. He said it was probably "walked off with a compass". Does this sound right?

Beenthere-the only land description that I have is the south 1/2 of the southwest 1/4 or whatever. I understand that, and have even gotten estimates to the nearest 10 feet from the county map office. I'm still sketchy on the boundaries. Will other documents have a better desciption than the assessor's office? How can aerial photos help?

Thanks

[Robert R]

I was guessing, with you being from Kansas, the land would have been on the other side of the state.  That is beautiful country around West Plains.  They do a whole lot more logging there than along western and southwestern Missouri.  You won't have any trouble finding someone for that area.  The 2 mills I sell walnut to will buy down to 10 inch stems but they must be 15 or greater to make a grade log any significant value.  Oak and ash will go for 12 inch or greater at a decent price.  About everything else I have any experience with goes for pallets and is almost worth more left standing in the timber.  I was surprised that the last time I was at the pallet mill, they had a bunch of big pecan logs.  I would have figured them for more than pallet and maybe they are elsewhere, I've never cut and sold any.  Don't put a nickel's worth of stock in my experiences though, I am a frank newbie myself just starting out and don't want you thinking that I am a reliable source of information or trying to come across as something I'm not.  Good luck.

[Ron Wenrich]

You need some sort of inventory.  It sounds like you have started to do it with your stand discription.  What type of management are you interested in?  Even-aged or uneven-aged?  It will effect the size distribution of your stand.

A fully stocked hardwood stand ranges from about 65 to 110 sq ft of basal area.  Pines can go to 180.  Fall below 65 BA and you have an understocked stand, go over 110 and your stand is overstocked.  

An inventory will tell you how much BA you have in each specie and at each diameter class.  It seems that you have several different size and age classes.  You would want to balance them out for uneven-aged management.  That might mean thinning the small stuff or take out some of the big stuff.

It may take several cuts to get what you are going after.  Your first cut should take out poor quality trees.  If your stocking falls to low, you will get epicormic branching and that hurts tree quality.  So, you might not be able to take out all the poor quality trees in one cut.  Other obvious choices are trees that dying and ones that are a poor specie choice.

Trees can only grow through crown expansion.  You want to remove overstory for the smaller trees, or remove surpressed trees from your crop trees.  You are aiming for enough crop trees to make a fully stocked stand.  Then you can think about removing crop trees and regeneration.

You can get an angle guage at Ben Meadows.  They aren't a sponser, so I won't give you a link.  I'm not sure if Bailey's has one or not.  An angle guage is practically industrutable, very compact, and cheap.

[Phorester]

Some good advice already given.  Here's my 2 cents...

In my 30 years as a State Service Forester, the biggest problem I have seen in forest management  is property lines.  Pay, if need be,  to get a good legal and defensible survey done, mark your corners and the lines in between, and maintain the marks forever.  You have know idea how much time, personal grief, and possibly money, this will save you in the future if you get it done.  For one thing, no reputable timber buyer will buy timber if he doesn't know where the boundary lines are.  This knowledge is the landowner's responsibility, not the timber buyers. I've had landowners come to me with horror stories of timber tresspass, timber theft, because of unmarked or unknown property lines.  They have a legal problem, not a forest management problem.  Legal problems are expensive.

As far as selling timber, you might be putting the horse before the cart.  I've seen no mention of your objectives as a landowner.  You say you are managing, but what are you managing for?  The questions you are asking can't be adequately answered unless you know this.  My impression from your posts is that you only want to do one timber sale on this property and do it right right now, period. Is that it? Or are you looking for more from this property?  

Any forest management activity including a timber sale should be done with the thought that it will contribute to meeting your forest and wildlife management objectives.  A timber sale shouldn't be done only to have a timber sale.  It can be done to generate needed income of course, but it should also be done to reach a management goal.  Improving forest health, improving wildlife habitat, setting the stage for increased future growth and income, etc.

Diameter limit cuts are slow death for a forest.  Just about the worst way to manage an eastern hardwood forest.  Remember you are managing a biological system of plants.  Diameter limit cuts are based on no biological conditions of the trees and forest whatsoever, only on tree size. Tree size is no indication of what trees should be cut and what trees should remain.  In 30 years I've written hundreds of management plans, and I have recommended a diameter limit cut only once, where the biological conditions of the forest in a particular area of a property lent itself to doing it.

The soil type found in different areas of your property will drive what species of trees will grow there the best.  Just looking at the size, species, and stocking of trees is only half the information needed.  You need to know if the soil under them will support their continued good growth, or should an area of the forest be converted to a species better suited for the soil found there, etc.  For instance, it doesn't do any good to keep trees on a soil type where they have done all the growing they are going to do, and have started to decline in growth and health.

Get a professional forester that will take the biological information from your forest; soil types, tree ages, species, etc., and couple this with your ideas for the property.  Do you want income right now?  Do you want timber sale income 20 years from now to help put a child through college, help with your retirement?  Do you want more deer, quail, turkey, squirrels, songbirds, ducks, etc., etc., on your property?  Do you want to subdivide this property in 5 years, in 20 years?  Do you want to be able to catch fish from that stream?  Do you want as healthy a forest as possible to pass on to your heirs? Or do you plan on selling the property in 10 years?  These are your management objectives. The forester  then writes you a management plan that takes you from how your forest is now, to how you want it to be 10, 20, 50 years from now.

At that point you begin to work on a timber sale, if that is in the cards for your objectives and the forest conditions.

Get a good reliable professional forester to help you with this, one experienced with forest management in your locality.  One that is working for you, not wanting to buy your timber.  He cannot be objective with management advice if he also wants to buy your trees.  One that you feel comfortable with.  It might be a government service forester like me, or maybe you feel more comfortable with a consulting forester.  Start there.

[beenthere]

BlaBla
Aerial photos may help you identify the land boundaries, especially if you have lines that fit the survey system in the midwest, not the meets and bounds in the East.

West Plains, MO comes up with aerial photos taken in 1995 at the TerraServer site.
http://terraserver-usa.com/image.aspx?t=1&s=14&x=188&y=1270&z=15&w=1&qs=+%7cWest+Plains%7cMO%7c

You may be able to find your land and zoom in on it.  The Gov't soils people also have pretty extensive maps as well as county or state offices. A MO state forester would likely be able to help you too.

There are lots of good information you are getting from others about management and objectives. Hope it helps. 

[BlaBla]

Okay, first, I see my first mistake has been assuming the timber needs cutting. My management goal is income while preserving for the future. Income is definitely not a necessity right now, but it would be nice to have. ;D I am open to as many timber sales as need be.

There is definitely one concept I don't understand here. RW, You say my first cut should take  out poor quality trees. Will timber companies cut "poor-quality trees?" One example: there is a 44" white oak--ugly, knotty, catface, few straight sawlogs even in the branches. I can't cut this down, period. I can't see anyone cutting it down. It's what you'd consider a "wolf tree." How do I get rid of this kind of tree? I'm guessing poor-quality trees also means 4" trees of inferior species. I live 6 hours away, and it will be hard for me to cut these out. Is there any benefit to the timber companies to cut these? Will even the poor-quality trees benefit the buyer? Is my perception of poor quality trees even correct?

More on objectives:  I am 17 and have been doing research for my parents who own the property. The experience has been a lot more challenging and fun than I ever expected. I'm now quite interested in forestry as a career and this forum as a result. Anyway, my parents' main interest is income, but other interests include the preservation of the condition of thee land. Originally bought by my grandfather near his childhood home after World War II, the land has some sentimental value, so trashing it in the name of income is in nobody's best interest. At the same time, income, gradual income rather than immediate income, seems to go with proper management. Since 1946, the land was never touched except for the occasional hunter. Then, in 1973 it was logged as described in the other thread to pay my mother's and uncle's college fees. Again, it was ignored by my grandfather until he died in 1999 and my mother and uncle inherited it. We know little about forest management, but have had the assumption that it is probably about time to log. The error of our ways was to assume that we would remove the good trees and show back up in 30 years. Now, I'm seeing that with a little management, maybe an average of 1-2 days/year or less, and a good forester to help with objectives, we should be able to have a healthy, productive woodland with  timber that will produce income and an aesthetic piece of family land that can be passed through the generations.

So, have I drawn conclusions that are incorrect? Is a poor-quality harvest possible without me being the one cutting? Will the income from a poor-quality harvest finance at least the survey if not more?

Thanks

[beenthere]

Very good questions for what to plan next. You could have fooled me about being 17. 
Seek some advice from the MO forestry dept. at Columbia, and stop by to visit with them. They would be helpful with information on your forestry goals as well as with State contacts for your forest.

Here is a site that gives a variety of resources through extension.
http://muextension.missouri.edu/xplor/agguides/forestry/g05999.htm

Could you find your land on the TerraServer Image?

[Ron Wenrich]

I'm suprised at your age, as well.  You sound so much more mature than that.

Forest management has more to do with what you leave than what you cut.  Too many landowners lose sight of that.  They talk about how much money they made and nothing about what was left behind.

The big wolf tree can be taken care of by girdling.  You ring it with the chainsaw and that kills it.  Its now a den tree, and is out of the overstory.

Timber stand improvement (TSI) is where you go and take out the junk trees.  Its also called precommercial thinnings or noncomercial thinnings.  Its like weeding your garden.  A lot of people don't do it, but that will change as fuel prices go up.  Firewood is what these poorer species are good for.

Will a logger touch it?  Depends on how hungry they are.  As long as they can go down the road and highgrade someone elses stand, probably not.  You can do a mix of poor and good quality if that's the only way to get the job done.  But, leaving poor quality material behind leaves a poor quaity future forest. 

Forest science isn't rocket science.  Its much harder than that.   ;)

[SwampDonkey]

I've been following this thread also and I am impressed with how mature your writing is at 17 years of age. Alot of teenagers have no idea what they want to do in life, let alone a woodlot. I know it sounds stereotypical, but it's been my experience.

I will stress as other have in the thread, that having proper boundary line marks is essential. Up here in New Brunswick, unmarked and unattended woodlots become targets for wood theives and tresspass. This is especially apparent when owners are absantee. You said you live 6 hours away from your woodlot? That would be an absantee owner.

I'll attempt to add some additional advice to the that already submitted in this thread.
Be clear on your objectives for your land and be careful who you hire to work your land. References would be a good idea as well as written prescriptions attached to a signed contract. 
I am always hearing from local loggers about the delemna of getting rid of poor wood. You really need a local market for it because of it's low value. As mentioned, it may be useful for fuelwood. Some areas have biomass generated electric plants to utilize that wood.
Not only is it a good idea to have a timber inventory, but you should try to educate yourself about your local markets and the specifications they use to buy your wood. That way someone isn't likely to get away with paying you below market value of your wood. In New Brunswick we have Marketing Boards that provide this information to private woodlot owners. They also sponsor log grading and bucking courses along with assistance from mill owners/wood buyers.

As beenthere mentioned, an aerail photo can be usefull. It is a form of a map that can show you tie points for your lot boundaries. A tie point might be a big white pine on a corner that you can go find on the ground. It might also be an old fence marking the back line of the property. You see that on the photo that you've sketched your propery lines onto and determine that is an easily identifiable ground feature. Your photo also helps in timber typing your forest by unique groupings of trees (stands), which will increase the accuracy of your timber inventory. You can also use the photo to determine if the ground is inoperable because of wetlands or steep terrain. An example of steep terrain on a photo would be bands of dark shadows, indicating a deep gully or stream. An aerial photo can also help determine how many miles of road you are going to upgrade, or how many feet of boundary lines you may need upgrading. This way you get a good price estimate of the work. You can also identify features that you want the check out on the ground. Maybe you see a water fall on a stream that you never knew about. You can find a ground feature and take a bearing off the photo from that same feature and compass to the spot.Make sure you orient the photo so you know which edge is north and mark a north arrow on it. In New Brunswick the standard way the photos are take ensures that north is always up and the bottom of the photo will have descriptive information like flight line, photo number, mapsheet number and date taken.

Link to Aerial Photo Scale

Photo Marks

cheers 

[BlaBla]

Okay, I understand much more now. Now, after the poor harvest, how long before the crop trees become "poor." I recall a red oak about 20" in diameter. It had ants that signal an inner problem, correct? This tree would go out in the poor quality harvest, but how do I stop crop trees from degrading to this point in the future? Will the extra space created by removing poor trees prevent stuff like this? How will I know when these crop trees are mature, not immature or over mature?

Also, I have found a map that was transferred to my grandfather after he bought the property. It is much more specific than the tax assessor's maps. It has all kinds of degreees and abbreviations that I don't understand, but 3 property lines are marked on the map. It only shows about half the width of the property, but the whole length. I guess I'm assuming this is a survey done, but I'm not sure if it will do me much good. What should I look for on this map to see if points are marked or a surveyor can find these points easily?

And, the terraserver images were very beneficial. I'm not sure if terraserver has upgraded since my last visit or if it was just much more helpful after the visit, but I was able to locate the property boundaries within 10-20 feet, I think. I have one question. The assessor's office said the land is about 1360-1365 by 2640. Is this length the length that is measured by a satellite picture or the length if I would take a tape measure and measure the distance on the ground with all the hills?

Thanks

[BlaBla]

Here is a picture of the map [img width=400 --Photos MUST be in the Forestry Forum gallery!!!!!--.com/albums/y274/Shaggs2/survey2.jpg[/img]

[Tom]

That certainly looks like a map created by a surveyor.  If it is a survey of record then you may be able to find it in the county records.  Important documents are recorded by the county, for a fee.  I have had papers like my Service records recorded in County Files so that they will never get lost.  It is Law in some transactions that things get recorded.  Land transactions, along with initial surveys are recorded.  If that is an official survey, the surveyor's name or business name and date should be on it.  If you jave a local surveyor who has been in business for a number of years, it may be beneficial to go talk to him. Sometimes they keep their own records of  surveys their company has done.

At the very least, the survey you have may make it easy for him to find the corners and provide you with a "document" of some sort, verifying what he had found.  A full survey is still the optimum way to go.  If you do that, a surveyor, sometimes for a little more money and sometimes included in the fee, will drive irons every one hundred or two hundred along a line so that you will be able to find the line easier later.  Once the line is defined, it should be an annual project for you to keep it clean and marked.  You can drive some 2 foot lengths of white pvc pipe every 50 or 100 feet and it will stay visible for a long time.  You just can't mow over them without destroying them.  Irons are subsurface and will always be there.

[beenthere]

I can't make out anything on the map. Tom has good advice (as always  )
Sounds like you have 80 acres, ½ mile in one direction, and a ¼ mile in the other.  Sections are square miles, and are 640 acres. ¼ sections are 160 acres (named the NW ¼, SW ¼, etc. ), and they divide into ¼'s as well, of 40 acre each. You likely have two 40's. Thus the description of the South ½ (your 80 acres) of the SW 1/4 (160 acres) of Section (_?_), Township __, Range __.

Likely, if the original land surveys made years ago are done reasonably well (and they could be), then your boundaries could be easy to establish, especially if you have a road on two sides. They didn't have too much problem with the hills as measurements were all made horizontally (with hills you get more land   ). If you are on a section line (on the mile) then likely you have a section corner around.

The county office should have (not sure about MO) land survey records and information that you can easily get or at least look at. If you are in a section that is a full section (and not on the edge of the township where corrections in section lines have to be made) then your property lines should be pretty close to 1320 by 2640.  The fact the assessor's office says 1360 - 1365 indicates some extra length for some reason. Some likely correction needed to make the original survey's come out.

What county are you in?  Maybe a search can find something about the original surveys.

Keep up the good work. You have learned a lot, and have some good questions (they are not easy ones to answer when deciding which tree to leave and how long to leave it) and have some exciting times in your future with this land. That is partly why Ron said this is beyond 'rocket science' here.  

[Ron Scott]

Amen to previous comments.

The best "front end" investment that you can make to your property is to have it surveyed or resurveyed and recorded by a registered surveyor. You need to know where your property boundaries are. I do not touch any timber unless the landowner can show me their property lines with a legal survey.

I've been an expert witness in a number of trespass cases and the first thing that the judge usually asks is "do you have a registered survey and do you know where the legal boundaries are and are your property lines well marked"???

After the registered survey, contact a "certified" forester to help you plan and work towards meeting your management objectives to include "all resources" integrated in your forest landscape.

Proper forest management will increase your values. :P

[Ernie]

Are there cadastral and topographical maps available for your area, If so, it is relatively easy to determine the edges and corners of your block by comparing the two then digging around for the original survey pegs.  Even easier with an aerial photo of the same scale.

Good luck with your venture.

[BlaBla]

The surveyor claims that map is the MoDOT right-of-way plan and is no use to our property. I checked with the county and a survey has not been recorded. I'm back to square one.

So, is $2000 to $7000 a bit high for a survey, or is that what it should cost? Will shopping around in the survey business help me at all?

[beenthere]

Do I take it that no other survey's have been recorded on the adjacent property ownerships either? Is it possible to find out?

Is there an abstract with land description (S½ of SW¼ of Sec 29)  recorded in the Register of Deeds office, or a title office? 

Not saying don't get the survey, but if you are on section lines and are in cardinal directions (N, S, E, W) then you should be able to have a pretty sure idea of where those boundaries are. Hopefully the road is where it belongs, and not on your land.

I thought that 'map' looked like either a road right of way or maybe a gas right of way. I saw the electric line there.

Did you spot your land on the terraserver sight?

You are learning a lot about how things are, or are not, done with your future plans. 

[BlaBla]

A survey of record was taken by a surveyor now long gone in 1978 of parts of the southeast quarter, and another was taken elsewhere in the section in 1909.

What will the abstract tell me exactly?

The land is on section lines, but one other line is very hard to find.

I spotted the land on the terraserver sight. I was able to mark approximate property lines from that. One landmark showed my estimations from the visit to be quite close.

I sure am learning a lot. You all are making this process much easier, and I'm not sure where I'd be without the help.

[Rockn H]

I can't really give any better info than what you have already gotten other than to say.  About 3 years ago in AR we had 80 acres surveyed with permanent markers at the corner of each 40 and stakes every 330'.  It cost us $700 and moved the boundaries 40' to the north.  It seems they use GPS now and its changing alot of boundary lines. :  My point is the neighbors probably think they know where their lines are and before any logging happens I would know where mine are. ;D  Although $2000 for an 80 acre block that follows section lines seems a bit high.  It's not as complicated as some city lots just more walking.  Maybe you should ask Engineer if he'd like to take a trip. :D

[beenthere]

The abstract should have the description (may even have corners identified in some way) of the land, that should fit the assessors description, and likely does.

As to surveyors, I have some opinions of them and they are in the 'lawyer' category, for the most part.    Sorry, don't mean to offend anyone here.
I had my first 15 acres surveyed because it was coming off a farm and wasn't bordered by a fence line. The farmer and I both knew where our line was, we just wanted the surveyor to describe it and make it official. This surveyor (brother to the County Surveyor no less) needed to find a Section corner, as my 15 A were in the NE¼ of the NE¼ of Section 19.  So there is one corner that is a Section corner. These guys were a riot, watching them try to find that corner. Found some wire in the grass and some piles of rocks. Aha, they said, signs of an old fence line which would have been the line fence. So they extended that line, spun some angles for corners and took off. In the end, they went about 770 in a Westerly direction and were 190 feet away from the Section corner. The older farmer to the East of me showed them where it was on his property within 6" of where it still is today (40 years later).  Over the years, land around me has exchanged hands, and there has not been one surveyor team that has agreed with the previous one where the corners are at. And they all claim they are right, but the previous one is wrong. This last time, the survey stake on one corner of my property which is described as 1320' south of the Section corner has been put back to its original place (about 24" from where it was placed the previous survey). One would think that measuring distance for just 1320 feet wouldn't be so difficult these days. But it apparently is. I am glad we didn't move the corner post that four farm properties have used for more than 40 years, every time the surveyers showed it to be in a different location.  : That would be a lot of re-fencing.
Some surveyors do great in the city working with house lots, but are lost in the country. The GPS equipment they have nowdays should improve their accuracy. But every sale of land within 2 miles of me brings another set of surveyors out looking for that section corner at the NE corner of my property. Seems if they locate it once, then it should always be there and not be questioned and paid for by every landowner or buyer exchanging their land. Also, seems to me that we pay the County Surveyors office lots of tax dollars to see to it this doesn't keep happening.  Off the soap box.  ;)
If you have to spend the $2000-$7000, it is likely because they don't know where they will have to go to tie into some possibly unknown section corners. Probably your neighbors are waiting for you to pay them to be located, and then it won't cost them so much. It's a racket, IMO