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Timber Frame vs Log?

Started by wkheathjr, December 14, 2008, 11:00:43 AM

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wkheathjr

I have spent almost a year studying and researching on Log Homes and fascinated by this. Sadly, when I attended couple of Log Home Expo, I ignored Timber Frame displays as my mind/heart was set on Log Homes.  That was until I saw a cabin being built using 2x6 instead of 6x6 and that kinda had me intrigued!  However I am not convinced that 2x6 log has enough strength to support whole structure for a small cabin, and felt that using timber frame design would be best as a supporting structure and using 2x6 as finished siding.  So I started to do some research on Timber Frame and wished I had looked at it with open mind when I was at Log Home Expo because I would have known more about it by now.

Anyway, I am posting on here because I am curious on input from experts on pro and cons of building Timber Frame vs Log?  Mind you, I have plenty of Eastern Pine trees I can fell and mill it to build Timber Frame or Log Home so if you really have plenty of trees to build a log home then what would you do?

I do like Timber Frame structure but the thought of having to buy materials (SIPS and/or whatever) seems to make the expense piling up.  I could easily mill many logs and build log home without paying too much on materials.  Maybe there is another way to keep expenses down while building a Time Frame home that I am not aware of yet?  I mean, what do you use as siding if not SIPS and will it hold heat in cold weather up north?

Thanks in advance for your input!

logman

I also started out loving log homes and still do to an extent but having built and lived in a timber frame with sips, I would
not want to live in anything else.  You just don't have the problems that you have with log homes: shrinkage, settling, bugs, etc.  I built our frame in Md and it was the easiest place I've ever lived in to heat and cool.  We sold it and moved to
Blowing Rock, NC.  We are looking for land here to build another little timber frame.  We built our frame for $65 sq. ft.
That was with my wife and I doing everything except the rough in plumbing and HVAC.  We had solid surface countertops, a built in cedar sauna, corner whirlpool tub, heart pine floors, slate flooring, all wood walls and ceilings, so we didn't really scrimp but you have to do all the work yourself to make it affordable. 
LT40HD, 12' ext, 5105 JD tractor, Genie GTH5519 telehandler
M&K Timber Works

Jim_Rogers

.....jr:
check out logman's photo in my gallery:

https://forestryforum.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=1021

And you can see what a nice place he built....

And there are more ways then buying sips to enclose a frame......

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

witterbound

First of all, I'm not all that familiar with log homes.  The main advantages I can think of is the "lodge feel" one has.  If you have your own timbers, I'd guess you could also save some money with a log home.  However, from what I've seen in the timber frame world, the cost of the timbers represents less than 5% of the cost of a home. 

I am building a timber frame instead of a log home for several reasons. 

I like sheet-rock on my interior walls.  I don't want to be surrounded with logs.
I like the way the post and beams look.
I can do a lot of the joinery work in my barn as my schedule allows.
It will be easier to run electrical in the walls.
I won't have to deal with the shrinking that occurs in log homes.
I want to use hardiboard, or something very rot resistant on the outside.  I've heard horror stories of having to replace a log in the middle of a log home wall, and frankly, I just don't want to have to deal with maintaining the outside of a log home.

I plan on building a standard stick 2x6 wall on the outside of my frame.  I just can't justify the price of SIPs for the small home I am building in a rural area.  There is no way that I could come close to recovering the cost if I were ever to sell.  My sense is that the roof would be pretty similar with a timber frame or log home.  Timbers, decking, foam insulation, roofing.
   

jander3

I like logs.  Full scribe.  Using the logs from my property, I can produce everything I need.  I need to purchase a little glass to make the windows and some metal for the roof.   I purchased some dimensional lumber to build our bunkhouse; however, I plan to cut the rest of the planking I need  for the cabin with a chainsaw mill.  I also bought some wool to use for insullation.  I've learned to make windows and doors.  Overall costs are low but I  am ok with an outhouse, wood heat, and little solar power.

Downside...it takes time and more time and  even more time and a whole lot of effort.  It takes me a full day (in summer with light till late) to peel, notch, and cut the lateral grooves for two logs (working alone).   

I am reading and learning to timber frame, I have a sauna and a few outbuildings to build.  I'm thinking timber frame techniques will come in handy for roof structures.  At first, I thought timber framing was faster.  Now, I'm not so sure it takes any less time.  One advantage with timber framing is that quite a bit of work can be done in the shop, which is very helpful on days like today.  Currently -7 degrees, high for the day will be -1 degree.  I've peeled logs in this weather and it isn't much fun.

ARKANSAWYER

 







  With timber framing you can add log siding to the outside of the walls and what ever you want on the inside.  Also you can get the frame raised quickly and have a roof over your head faster.  When doing logs you have to prepare the logs then try to get them in place.  You have checks to worry about and settling.  I have had customers take the slabs from my sawing and make there own siding.  It looks like a log home for the most part made from logs. 
  Timber frames can be made very cozy if done right.
ARKANSAWYER

kfhines

Here is an isometric section of the exterior wall on my addition.
8" x 8" posts four foot on center  with 2x4 on the out side and 2x6 in between.
1/2" CDX for sheathing, 2x2 nailers for the sheet-rock. Enclosing the frame this way
makes it easy to add your doors ,windows, wiring & insulation. Defiantly not the fastest
way to enclose the frame but if you have the raw materials it would be relatively inexpensive.
I have some pictures loaded on my profile of my addition I just haven't posted them yet.
As Jim said there are many ways to accomplish this.





kfhines

Stephen1

Log or Timber?    if you have lots of time and energy Log, but they should be large log, ( 14-18" on average, less logs needed per wall)but then you need some heavy equipment to help move the logs. As jander2 says count on 12-16 hrs per log, but I bet that is conservative. I was told that each log will be handled 18 times from the tree to the finished wall, that will give you an idea of the amount of work involved.
My next project will be TimberFrame, and after I'm done I will let you know which I like better.
IDRY Vacum Kiln, LT40HDWide, BMS250 sharpener/setter 742b Bobcat, TCM forklift, Sthil 026,038, 461. 1952 TEA Fergusan Tractor

wkheathjr

Thanks for the input.  Actually I have decided to go with Timber Frame because I think, in my opinion, is more environment-friendly because you can select cut certain trees that you know you will use for your building project.  Another issue is that I noticed that the building plan for TF is more cheaper than Log Homes, and many TF plans can be purchased without buying a kit.  I have had few quotes and the cheapest one I came cross on custom log home plan was $1,600 but he doesn't have the engineer stamp to seal the plan so that is out of question for me.

I recently purchased 27 acres lakefront property in Maine and I am really excited about it.  I am planning to go on a tent-camping trip for one week or maybe two up there this summer.  During the trip, I shall look around and see what tree I may have to work with up there and go meet with county officials to find out what I can or can't do with the property.  I am planning to sign up for Timber Frame class in Tennessee by Grand Oaks TF and I have contacted the instructor about getting me sign language interpreter so I could get through the class understanding the instructor and he said he know one at his church so that is good. 

So as you can see, I am just trying to be throughout with my planning project and I want to build a home with siding that will keep house warm during the wintertime.  Sadly, the budget play the role right now but with patient and taking it slowly I think the budget will no longer be an issue(hopefully!) because I will be debt free in two years (24 payments left) beside land payment.

witterbound

Keep an open mind.  Go to Grand Oaks and learn all you can.  Ask tons of questions.  They might be willing to sell you a frame plan.  I was at a similar point 2 summers ago when I spent 2 months at Goshen Timber frames in NC.  I am just now starting my frame.

A few things I have learned that might be helpful to you at this point.  First, the plans you see for sale on the Internet from various timber frame companies probably don't come with an engineering stamp for Maine, so it may be an extra expense to hire an engineer approved in Maine to stamp your plans.   Second, the plans are engineered for a specific type of wood, which is often Eastern White Pine.  If you're using a different species, the plans may need to be modified, and would definitely require the engineer to do a lot more work.  So, the trees on your property might not be the right kind.  Third, your building dept may require you to have timbers that have been graded and stamped  to show that they are of the quality called for in the plans.  This can be a real pain in the ass.  Finally, the cost of the timbers is minuscule compared to the cost of building a cabin or a house.  I'd imagine that you could buy all the timbers for a small cabin for $1,500.  The expense for a timber frame (or log home for that matter) is in the labor, because as others have pointed out above, it takes a lot of time to cut that joinery. 

wkheathjr

Witterbound,

Thank for the pointer!  I will check with Maine and the county officials up there about the grading.  Here in NC, it was to my understanding that I could kiln-dry the woods I mill and build my own home with engineered plan and I have to live in it for a minimum of 24 months before I could sell it.  And yes, you are still right about it being stamped by an architect and generally the cost would not be as great as them drawing the plan from scratch.  My cousin is an architect but I do not know if he is familiar with Maine code, but it wouldn't hurt to ask. He has drew few building plans for me for free(Not TF, mind you!).

I own 55 acres of land down here in NC too and there are plenty of Eastern Pines to select from, and my family combine of over 1,000 acres in case I need to get more.  Many of them are now in old ages and young ones are no longer into rural life so I guess that's to my advantage.  I guess the challenging would be to get the officials to OK the lumber I mill and use to build my own home.  I think the restriction should be a little flexible given that you are building your own home instead of for business usage?  Yes I can still be wrong but that will be in my note when I ask questions to the county officials when I go on a camping trip this coming summer.

As for time, I guess the advantage I have is that I converted two chicken houses into big shop and big shelter (Tore down half of both buildings to reuse materials toward the other half).  Being in the south, I could kiln dry many woods and make joints, and all before I haul it up there little by little.  Generally, I operate a campground business on 55 acres and it has been slow lately so I have been doing little projects here and there.  My latest project is homemade sawmill but waiting for my friend who is a specialist in metal fab to move in next door on my property and he will do some labor in exchange for rent.  We agreed to let him move in to help me with projects and his family gets to live on land for free.  Time is something I really got.  ;)

I didn't realize that Goshen TF offers course too and they had one plan that I really like very much I was seriously considering it!  Your course at Goshen was 2 months??  Grand Oaks course is one week.

witterbound

When I got interested in timber framing I wanted more than a week course, so I did a 2 month apprenticeship.  Goshen has cabins where apprentices live, and often hire from their apprentices, but all kinds of folks do the apprenticeships.

Most timber frames are not cut from dried wood.  The green wood is much easier to work, and it's a long time consuming (and usually expensive) process to dry big timbers.  Goshen uses almost all green EYP in thier frames. 

wkheathjr

Quote from: witterbound on December 19, 2008, 11:44:45 AM
When I got interested in timber framing I wanted more than a week course, so I did a 2 month apprenticeship.  Goshen has cabins where apprentices live, and often hire from their apprentices, but all kinds of folks do the apprenticeships.

Most timber frames are not cut from dried wood.  The green wood is much easier to work, and it's a long time consuming (and usually expensive) process to dry big timbers.  Goshen uses almost all green EYP in thier frames. 

I see..  I will learn as I go along..  of course, not planning to do any TF projects until after I have taken the course.  I'll keep Goshen in mind when I am lusting for more courses..  ;D

witterbound

Whoops, I said "green EYP."  Meant "green Eastern White Pine." 

bigshow

Logman,

hopefully you check this post again...$65 a sq ft?  wow, good job!  what did you skin the frame with?  what did you do for HVAC?

for a 2k sq ft house, the big three already have me half way to $65 a sq ft: foundation - 26k, HVAC (Geothermal) - 25k, SIPS - 26K.

And thats with me doing everything else.  If you have more details where you really saved some coin, I'd love to hear it, thanks!....
I never try anything, I just do it.

Shovel Man

Great start. You are allowing yourself the time to do it right. You may want to cut a few sample joints for practice in your spare time. When you start for real you'll want to roll right into it with jigs and techniques ready to go. If you do this before school you'll get a lot more out of the class.

Here's a little appreciated fact about house construction. Building the walls and roof framing is about 10% of the project, in labor and in cost. So don't plan on building a house much cheaper because it's log or timber frame. That doesn't make bathtubs or financing any cheaper or faster. Accept this and if I'm wrong you can be pleasantly surprised.

Enjoy the journey.



wkheathjr

Shovel Man, thanks for the reinforce :)

logman

As I stated in my post, my wife and I did almost all the work.  I even dug my footer trenches with a shovel, which was pretty easy where we built.  I got my sips from General Panel out of Tenn., they have about the best prices I've found so far.  I cut them myself which reduces cost but you have some waste.  My panels were around $9k and about another $1k for screws and foam.  We installed a package gas/a/c unit with an air to air heat exchanger.  It was very easy to heat and cool.  I kept every receipt for every purchase and kept a little log to track costs.  We could have done it even for less money if I'd used timbers and interior and exterior wood that I sawed on my mill.  I wanted to use white pine for timbers and only had syp where we lived so I got white pine timbers shipped in.  I used all store bought interior wood
since I figured it would take too long to cut and dry it since I was working a regular job while building.  Like Shovel Man stated the timber frame is the small part (and the most fun part) of the home, all the other stuff takes a lot longer. 
LT40HD, 12' ext, 5105 JD tractor, Genie GTH5519 telehandler
M&K Timber Works

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