Western Red Cedar Seedlings Moisture Tolerance

[Furu]

I am doing some replanting in some areas of my forest property (Pacific Northwest) and have a question about how much soil moisture WRC seedlings can tolerate.  I have been getting some conflicting advice on the subject.  The area is a headwall seep for a stream/creek that is about 300 meters away.  The area is well drained but does have significant late winter early spring moisture.  The area that I am most concerned about is the near the bottom of a couple of draws.  These draws as well as the surrounding area have been densely populated with Himalayan Blackberry, Salmonberry, Red Elderberry as well as Vine Maple.  
Just how wet can the seedling roots get on WRC before they will not survive?  Water does not stand nor does it turn into a bog but it is very wet during late winter early spring. The area is not considered a wetland and the water does not have a surface flow in the draws.   If I put seedlings in the bottom of these draws are they likely to survive?
Thanks for the opinions of the responding foresters and forestry experts.

[Clark]

From what I saw when I worked out there you shouldn't have a problem.  It is those exact areas that cedar grows in.  Too wet for doug fir, hemlock and true firs so the red cedar tends to take over which is far better than the vine maple, blackberry, etc.  You could always try planting some in March-April when they usually plant and then hold onto some and plant them later (late May) when there should be less moisture.  Wait a couple years and see if there is a difference in survival.

Honestly I don't think you'll have a problem, just avoid planting them in the lower divots where water does collect.

Clark

[Onthesauk]

I'm in NW Washington, we get about 90+ inches per year and western red cedar seems to do it's best in good wet areas.  I think that because of the colder winters it seems to do fine in very wet areas and then seems to put on the best size in wet spots.  Planted in too shady they take a long time to put any size to them, do their best in full sunshine.

[Furu]

Thanks for the input.  I had thought I would be OK but had one forester tell me that it might be a bit too wet in the bottom of the draws.  With the density/spacing I think if I avoid the dead center bottom, I will be OK no matter what.  2000 WRC seedlings starting in mid January, If I can keep the boomers from cutting their stems.

[SwampDonkey]

Yellow cypress could also be considered if your more inland and higher than 2500 feet in elevation. Larch is another alternative as well. But, red cedar is the most tolerant to shading.

[Onthesauk]

I don't think we have any larch on the west side of the Cascades, (or very little.)   A nursery guy gave me a few sitka spruce, said they did well in boggy areas.  The few I have were too dry initially but now seem to get established.  If you read the material about them they need more elevation but mine look OK by now.

[SwampDonkey]

Probably depends on latitude for the spruce, as where I worked in the Islands they were down in the river banks, a few meters off the ocean and up in fan tails of old slides to mid slope along the coast mountains. 60 - 70 meters tall. On wet ground they never got very big unless there was good drainage flow, no bigger than eastern spruce. Where I worked they got 2.6 meters annual rainfall. Snow didn't amount to anything and was gone quick. The best cypress was in the coastal islands of BC and southern Alaska.

If I was planting trees out in your area of the country, I would look around me and see what was there and the specific site the more decent sized trees take to of any species you have and go with that. There is so much variation in microclimate and soils. Just judging by the BC classification system, there is an encyclopedia of information on how to choose your species for your site. I assume the same for your part of the US.

[Furu]

Western Larch really are not a good option on the western side of the Cascades.  I do have a few that I have been experimenting with but not on a large scale do I want to plant Larch in this area and elevation (300-400m).
The Sitka Spruce was looked at in depth but the distance from the cooler coasts raises the tip weevil (Pissodes strobi) problem and additionally does not really do any better than WRC in the moisture-laden dense soils.  Does mature out a bit quicker however.
Yellow cypress/Alaskan yellow cedar  do not do that well in this area.

[Pilot1]

I think you are too far inland for spruce.  I am not a fan of offsite trees, so in my book, larch and anything else that you don't find locally are out.

The plants (berries) you mention generally do not grow on sites that are too wet for cedar.  Cedar will grow well on sites with devils club, which occupies wetter sites.  Seasonally wet sites are OK, continuously wet sites are not.  What do you have for stumps in the area?  That could tell you something, but keep in mind that sometimes events intercede to make a site more or less suitable for a few years and allow a tree to become established when it otherwise would not survive.  An example was a white pine we had on the Mt. Hood NF, growing in a pond when I arrived.  White pine does not grow under water, but this tree became established during a few dry years.  It was probably 15 ft. tall when I found it.  A few years later it was wet for too long & it died.

One thing to keep in mind that is not often mentioned:  Trees do well where they can compete well or where others can not compete.  So ponderosa pine grows well in the Willamete Valley, but Doug-fir, hemlock and cedar do better, so you don't see much pine in the valley.

You mention mountain beaver.  Ugh!  That's a real concern, more than seasonal moisture.  Many years ago, Weyerhauser published a study reporting that large DF seedlings (darn, I don't remember the size) my be damaged by mountain beaver, but they generally survived.  I don't believe they addressed cedar.  Doesn't Weyerhauser have some nearby land? You might call them and ask what they do for the critters.  And they might give you some other suggestions for cedar.

Be sure to get seedlings from a nearby seed source, similar in elevation especially.  We had an area that was planted to DF from near you at Roy, WA.  Planted at about 3,500 ft. elevation in 1912 (How many of you knew the Forest Service was planting trees 100 years ago?) before they knew the importance of local seed sources.  About 80 years later, I clearcut the stand--the trees were still only about 12"DBH.  There is more to the story than that, but that's another story.  The area had a lot of test plantings of exotic species, Austrian pine being one of them.  Except for a few Austrian pines, which were less than 20 ft. tall at 80 years old, none of the exotics survived.

Yes, cedar is your tree!

[SwampDonkey]

I don't know if you guys get an interior western red cedar as in Prince George, BC and down along the Rockies. That area would be drier than the coast and higher elevation. Grows along the Fraser and Columbia rivers. Grows with larch and Engelmann spruce at higher elevations.

[Furu]

Reference the comments from Pilot1 - Thanks

As far as getting seedlings from a nearby source.  My supplier is the WA DNR nursery in Olympia (Websters) and they have seedlings sources for rather specific areas and elevations.  It is as you say quite beneficial to watch for that. 
I do have devils club in the area and in the bottom of the draws so if as you say cedars can grow anywhere devils club grows then  the bottom of the draws are not too wet.
Most of the stumps have decayed to the point I do not have the ability to determine anything other than cedar at the level of rot, most stumps have reached.  It is the bottom of the draws that I have been concerned about and there are not really any stumps left in those specific areas.

Mountain beavers are a real challenge.  Protection tubes is the only solution that I have been able to come up with.  So far they have proven very effective for the seedlings I planted last year in an a different area (not wet) also not cedars.  It takes more time while planting but so far I have not lost a single one to the boomers cutting the stems.

Again thanks for all the inputs/

[northwoods1]

Beavers will cut the seedlings off? Do they actually feed on it or is it just incidental to there other cutting activities i wonder. I have never seen that around here, I have never seen beaver chew on or cut a cedar tree. And I have seen a lot of beaver damage, have done a lot of trapping in the past. We only have northern white cedar.

[Clark]

They are talking about mountain beaver which are nothing like the aquatic dwelling beaver most people are used to.  The mountain beaver is more like rat, guinea pig or other rodent.  For whatever reason they like to live in fairly fresh clearcuts and cut down and eat seedlings.  Wiki can probably explain them better than I can:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Beaver

Clark

[SwampDonkey]

We don't need mountain beavers, we have snow shoe hare. They'll eat anything green and I've seen them wipe out planted trees in quite a large area. That's why I don't bother the coyotes. ;) They are beginning to get thick on my place because of the stage of growth and lots to chew.

[Tom]

Do y'all like Hossenfeffer?

[SwampDonkey]

 :D :D :D

The one and only time we ate it, mom's cousin through up her arms and screamed "blessed redeemer mother, we ate rabbit". Mom told them after the meal. ;D They thought it was chicken stew up until then.

[BaldBob]

Generally if there are many deer and/or elk in an area, they are really destructive to WRC seedlings - even more so than Mountain Beaver.  One of the most effective and ingenious methods I have seen to protect WRC seedlings ( in areas enough inland that the tip weevil hits Sitka Spruce) is to plant Sitka Spruce and WRC in the same planting hole.  The deer & elk get their noses jabbed by the sharp spruce needles when they try to take a bite of cedar so avoid it. By the time the spruce and cedar is 5-6' tall the spruce is stunted by the tip weevil and the cedar grows past it.

[Pilot1]

Ah, BaldBob is right on about deer and elk.  I should have mentioned them.  Deer will stand on their hind legs and prune them up as far as they can reach.  Cedar is one of their favorite foods.  It's just not practical to tube cedar as high as the deer can reach.

Deer wander around sampling what they find.  If you plant a lot of cedar in one area, they'll find it & remember it is an ice cream store and return.  If you have just a few, scattered trees they may not.

I don't have good answers.  The only ones I have seen that work are not great.  Planting just a few trees  among other species works, but then you want more cedars.  Leaving thick brush and slash to make it hard for the deer to find the trees, the cedar will come up thru it, but initial growth will be reduced until they overtop the brush, which they will do as cedar is very shade tolerant.  I haven't tried the spruce trick, but it would be offsite for your area.  Might work though.  Neat idea.

[Onthesauk]

I'm a little farther North, maybe 100 miles NE of Seattle, and have very little trouble with the deer at our cedar.  I've got a couple that browse on the hill side behind our house on a regular basis and seldom eat cedar.  Ever once in awhile one will prune a small one but have never seen one stand high to really work at eating one.  The love blackberry leaves and other leaves.  Also remember reading somewhere that deer will eat anything, where ever they happen to stop.

[SwampDonkey]

Black tails are a real problem on the Queen Charlotte Islands after being introduced. They have a hard time getting cedar to regenerate because they eat them up. You won't find cedar seedlings hardly at all. Planted ones they cage and they just chew the leader off that comes out the top.  :  Cedar gets eaten here to where the deer are plentiful, but they are scarce here. The other curse is beaver will flood them out. I thinned a small stand of new cedar saplings on 5 acres of land near a wetland and the beavers wiped them all out with flooding. :

[Onthesauk]

Have to fess up tonight.  Hiked above the house later today and discovered one little cedars has been cut back.  And yet, another 10 feet away wasn't touched.  Will mulch the ones damaged and they should come right back.

And SD, ours are all black tail in this area.

Had a couple of beavers a couple of years ago.  Replant was all fir and lost a bunch of them.  They moved after a couple years, not enough water during the summer to keep them happy.

[SwampDonkey]

I've got an area we scalped with a dozer to plant trees (spruce) and it's along were there were mature cedar on the next lot over. Those bare spots are a green carpet of white cedar. No deer to bother them, never see a deer track up there in the winter, they migrate down river.



Bronze or brown color is the cedar.

[Furu]

The protection tubes  work both for the Boomers and the deer/elk until they get established and start to grow out the tops.  The only problem is when they grow out the tops they can still eat them but by then they are a bit more robust.