need help with splitter

[outlawcowboy]

I just bought a used splitter that worked great for about 6 months. Then at the beginning of the season to cut firewood my splitter would not split any wood without backing the hydraulic ram off and having to put pressure on the wood again. I have to do this 4 or 5 times before it will split anything and it never use to do that. So I changed the hydraulic pump and it is 11gpm and has a 6.5hp motor. I believe it is a 20 ton splitter although I am not 100% sure as the maker name and everything about it has worn off. When I took the old pump off only thing it had was the manufacture date and it was 5-1987. Any help would be greatly appreciated as I need to get this thing working proper again.

 

[outlawcowboy]

sorry forgot to mention after i changed the hydraulic pump it is still doing the same thing and takeing 4 or more times to get threw the wood

[bodagocreek2]

Check to see if their is a hydraulic filter. If  their is, change it. If not, put one in line.

[outlawcowboy]

there is no filter but i am plannin on putting one on. But that wouldnt help with haveing to cycle the ram 4 or more times before it will split a peace of wood would it?The reason i say that is because when i got the splitter it didnt matter what diamater of the log was it would split it the first time.

[sawguy21]

What is the outside temperature and what oil are you using? Maybe you need to change to a lighter grade for winter. Also, check the pickup screen in the tank, it could be clogged.

[outlawcowboy]

outside temp is no colder then 32 when i am spliting and there is no screen in the tank. The hydraulic oil i am useing is AW-32

[Jeff]

Cylinder packings are bypassing. While my dual cylinders on the log turner on the mill I ran was not a wood splitter, it would behave the same way with the lack of power when the packings would get worn. The oil bypasses past them versus pushing on them. Tear them down, replace them, and they would run like new for another year or two.

[outlawcowboy]

Thanks Jeff that is what i was afraid of. how Hard is it to change the packing as i have never done it before? Always willing to learn tho so looks like i will be tearing it apart and trying to figure it out.

[Jeff]

Depends on the set up I guess, but normally its not that bad, there really isnt any moving parts. First you need to get the top loose on the cylinder. Usually there are slots for a spanner, but a very big pipe wrench will do it too. Leaving it mounted if you can before you crack the top loose gives you a way to hold it while wrenching.   Once loosened then I would disconnect the hoses and take the cylinder off its mounts and remove the yoke from the shaft. Screw off the top of the cylinder and slide that up and off the shaft. You should be able to pull out the cylinder shaft. On the shaft you should see either rubber fiber or leather "boots" or "cups"  Odds are, you will see the issue at that point. A torn edge, inverted boot, something, but it might just be wore.  Usually its a matter of taking off a nut on the inside of the shaft on the other end to remove the components. 

[currantvt]

I think that Jeff is on the right track though it might be worth checking the pressure relief valve before getting into the ram- could be that is stuck or a piece of carp in it, particularly as there is no filter on the system.

[outlawcowboy]

thanks currantvt ive looked at the pressure relief value and nothin it in i will check again tho to double check. If that aint it i will tear the ram apart like Jeff has stated and get it rebuilt. Doesnt sound to hard. there cant be much more then that since i have replaced the pump. Thanks for all the help.

[redprospector]

My old 1986 model Duerr 20 ton splitter acted the same exact way a couple of years ago. Jeff is right on the money about what was wrong with mine.

[beenthere]

I'd be putting a pressure gauge in the line to see what the pump pressure is, and to verify that you are getting action from the second stage of the two stage pump. If good pressure, then dive in to the ram.

And for DanG sure, I'd get that splitter up off the ground.. to save my back. ;)

[outlawcowboy]

beenthere i plan on putting a filter on it and a pressure guage. Yes i plan on getting it off the ground so it dosen't kill my back. Just have to figure out away to set up a convoyer to load the logs on and go right to the splitter once the logs are bucked for spliting and then would like another convoyer to take the split wood and drop it into a pile kinda like a processer just have to figure out how to do it for sure to make it the most effecient

[Jeff]

Be sure if and when you disassemble the cylinder to protect the shaft. If that gets nicked up it will tear on your front seal.

[Gearbox]

Befor you tear it apart take one hose off the cylinder and bottom it out and see if oil comes out the other end , if it is bypassing you will get ai least 1 gal. per min out of the wrong end of the cyl. the pump should shift down at 600 psi [to 1 gal per min.] Gearbox

[outlawcowboy]

thanks for all the great info its nice to finally find a site with this must knowledge and with people willing to share and help one another. Gearbox thanks i will try that before i start to take the cyl. off. Could it be that the hydraulic pump is to small?
As i stated i couldnt find anything besides a mgf date.

[beenthere]

Could it be that the hydraulic pump is to small?

You said it is a replacement of the first pump, and it is doing the same thing as the first pump.
Maybe the first pump was ok, and the problem wasn't the pump? Or did I get that wrong?

[bill m]

Your splitter is made by Brave Products, a division of Iron and Oak. I have the same splitter that I bought new in the fall of 1983.

[gfadvm]

Cowboy, I have that same splitter! Mine is 40 years old and on its second motor and cylinder.  Mine did the same thing as yours and I replaced the cylinder. I took it to a hydraulic place and that's what they recommended (probably should have repacked the old one).  I like mine down low so I can roll those big rounds on it rather than lifting them.  Looks like yours has had steel guides replacing the old brass ones?

[outlawcowboy]

Could it be that the hydraulic pump is to small?

You said it is a replacement of the first pump, and it is doing the same thing as the first pump.
Maybe the first pump was ok, and the problem wasn't the pump? Or did I get that wrong?

yes it is a replacement pump and yes it is doin the same thing as the old pump did.

Your splitter is made by Brave Products, a division of Iron and Oak. I have the same splitter that I bought new in the fall of 1983.

thanks for that info maybe that will help me find parts for it easier.

Cowboy, I have that same splitter! Mine is 40 years old and on its second motor and cylinder.  Mine did the same thing as yours and I replaced the cylinder. I took it to a hydraulic place and that's what they recommended (probably should have repacked the old one).  I like mine down low so I can roll those big rounds on it rather than lifting them.  Looks like yours has had steel guides replacing the old brass ones?

i cant find any new cylinders for it but like i stated above i wasnt for sure what brand it was i think it would be cheaper to just have the cylinder repacked and hope that works. As for the steel guides what are you refering to as the old brass ones? and as keeping it low to the ground i agree to a point cause i get some big stuff brought to me that i cant lift. but it would be nice and not so straining on the back after a day of spliting wood

[outlawcowboy]

 


here is part of a red oak trunk, about half way up the trunk it was hollow it had be struck by lightening that made for some nice firewood. I got about 3 cords out of the trunk and branches. That is why i would like to keep it on the ground but am still in the procress of figuring a way for a "roller table" and the splitter to get off the ground

[North River Energy]

Example of blown-out piston seal:
(Fiber 'cup' seals.  Yours may look different.)


 

[beenthere]

Good example, and also good reason to have a hyd. oil filter so that mess doesn't get into the pump and on into the control valve.

[outlawcowboy]

thanks North River Energy at least i will know what one looks like when i go to take it apart after all the other advice ive got. Start will the simpliest 1st is what i was always taught.

Beenthere i know its not hard to install a filter or pressure guage as i plan on doing just for saftey reasons and to keep that from happening in the future. But do you know if that splitter like mine had a filter on it from the MFG. The guy i bought it off of didnt know to much about it other then it was his dads and i figured i couldnt go wrong with me only paying $200 for the splitter so it could be possible that at one time it had one and they just took it off for some reason.

[beenthere]

I don't think all splitters came with a suction filter. Mine did, however.
They are not much including the fitting, such as several suction filters on Surpluscenter.com

an example:
http://www.surpluscenter.com/Brands/Zinga/3-4-NPT-9-GPM-FA1100-25-SUCTION-FILTER-9-077.axd

Likely you'd need to get a longer suction line. I just had to do that when my suction line started sucking in air and making the oil foam. Found the suction line on DiscountHydraulicHose site.

[sawguy21]

Install the filter in the return line to the tank for two reasons. If something in the system goes south the debris will be trapped in the filter and not returned to the tank. The other is to prevent cavitation or filter material from being sucked into the pump.

[outlawcowboy]

thanks BT i just order the filter for it.

Sawguy21 thanks for that info as i was goin to ask that as soon as i ordered the filter.

HAHA before long yall will have me talked into a lift for the logs and turning it into a somewhat homemade processer.

[beenthere]

With due regard to Sawguy21's post, be sure which filter you want to add. A suction line filter or a return line filter as there is a difference.

Pro's and con's, such as described in this link
http://hydraulicspneumatics.com/other-technologies/book-2-chapter-9-filtration

I go with filtering the oil out of the tank.  Mostly because that was the design of the splitter I bought and has been operating without fail for 29 years. Until I put on a new engine this fall and apparently the suction line was so stiff that I created an air leak. That air cavitating in the suction line and the pump can wreck the pump. So a small micron filter on the suction line is not advised. Around 150 micron recommended.

[bill m]

Yes, your splitter should have had a filter on it when it came from the manufacturer. They are installed in the return line coming off of the control valve. If you look at the aluminum adapter from the engine to the pump it should say BRAVE on it, mine does.

[Buck]

There should be relief built into the control valve.  This sometimes is adjustable. If not, it's just a preset spring type relief.  Without gauges you're just throwing money at it until the problem goes away. Look your valve over and start googling.

[North River Energy]

Clogged and collapsed suction screen:


 
The debris is remnants of various piston seals on a larger Ford backhoe.



 

When this trash clogs the return filter, that filter bypasses to avoid totally starving the pump.  The suction screen catches the larger pieces of bypassed crud before it can get recirculated back through the system.

The pump on this particular hoe was noisy, with a diminished flow capacity and aerated oil.

Your splitter is a very simple machine, and so long as your tank is clean and you don't drop machining swarf into the fill port, you should be fine with a return filter.

Go larger than the max rated GPM of your pump.  The added flow capacity should reduce heat.

If your piston is bypassing, a pressure gauge test might have you thinking that you have a pump problem?
(Leaking seals become a de facto relief valve)

[outlawcowboy]

thanks guys i went with a return line filter and went with a 150 micron 16gpm There is nothing in the tank as far as any trash as when i changed the pump i emptied the hyd. fuild and cleaned the tank and let dry for 3 days and then put new AW-32 Oil in. On the relief valve it is a preset spring so i can not adjust it. Since there are pro's and con's on both the suction line filter and return filter would it be better to just put both of them on or would that just be a waste of time and money?

[Hilltop366]

I think some relief valve springs are made to be shimmed to adjust. Could be wrong on this but I thought I would throw it out there.

[outlawcowboy]

I think some relief valve springs are made to be shimmed to adjust. Could be wrong on this but I thought I would throw it out there.

your guess would be as good as mine as this is the first splitter i have ever had. (better then a mual haha) and quite a bit faster. A buddy of mine knows someone that is real good with hydualic's so we are gonna take it over to him and he is goin to help me figure it out. I am more of a hands on type person and learn better that way. But once i learn how everything works it wont be a problem for me to work on it by myself then. Thanks to everyone for all the help

[sawguy21]

thanks guys i went with a return line filter and went with a 150 micron 16gpm There is nothing in the tank as far as any trash as when i changed the pump i emptied the hyd. fuild and cleaned the tank and let dry for 3 days and then put new AW-32 Oil in. On the relief valve it is a preset spring so i can not adjust it. Since there are pro's and con's on both the suction line filter and return filter would it be better to just put both of them on or would that just be a waste of time and money?

You are covered with one filter.

[gfadvm]

Cowboy, The guides on my splitter are milled brass and wear badly. Yours look like they are steel (those red plates on either side of the big I beam attached with three bolts to the ram).  My splitter does not have a filter either (and I've always thought it should).

[DMcCoy]

Welcome!
My vote is on bad packing (seals).  When you get your cylinder apart check the piston and bore for scoring.  I bought a used shop floor jack cheap at an auction and the cylinder is so badly scored I have been unable to hone it out and make it work.  Expensive scrap!
If you take some pictures of the the packing I'm sure someone here can direct you to a parts source if the mfg. is out of business. 
 

[outlawcowboy]

Cowboy, The guides on my splitter are milled brass and wear badly. Yours look like they are steel (those red plates on either side of the big I beam attached with three bolts to the ram).  My splitter does not have a filter either (and I've always thought it should).

Yes they are steel on mine I don't have any brass on it. I ordered a filter for extra protection its well worth the 20 or so dollars a lot better then replacing the pump or packing again. It should be in by friday.

Welcome!
My vote is on bad packing (seals).  When you get your cylinder apart check the piston and bore for scoring.  I bought a used shop floor jack cheap at an auction and the cylinder is so badly scored I have been unable to hone it out and make it work.  Expensive scrap!
If you take some pictures of the the packing I'm sure someone here can direct you to a parts source if the mfg. is out of business.

The guy that is goin to help me said they are easy to it and he believes he has some in his shop. Like I said earlier in the post I learn better hands on and being shown so just to be safe I'm goin to have him help me cause I don't want a peace of scrap like you have mentioned.   
 

[Oliver1655]

As mentioned:  Probably bypass in cylinder packings.

- Test, move piston cylinder to one end or the other then remove the hose on the end the piston is at taking care to catch the fluid that will drain out.
- Gently apply pressure to the line on the other end.  If fluid comes out, re-pack.
- Leave the base of the cylinder pinned to the splitter.
- Remove rod end retainer
- You will probably need to apply pulling force to pull the rod & piston free from the end of the cylinder. 
*** Note *** PULL it free, DO NOT use compressed air to blow it free!  Compressed air will shot it out like a projectile & is very dangerous.  I'd prop the end of the rod end of the cylinder up on a chunk of wood so the end of the rod is higher than the wedge/foot which every you have.  Use short length of chain & fasten it to the end of the rod & around a 2x4 or pipe which is placed behind the wedge/foot & lever/pry it free.  Take care to protect the rod shaft.  You can wrap it with rags or cardboard. I like to clamp a couple of pieces of board to the sides of the beam to make a cradle to catch the rod when it pops free.
- Take a photo of the piston before removing the packing rings.  Often replacement kits will not be identical in either color or design.  (Some rings will be wider & some narrower or 2 rings may be replace by one or the opposite as well as being a different type of material.)  If the overall width matches it is probable the right kit.  The photo will help with re-assembly. Some rings may have a beveled edge, seals have an open side & they need to be in the same positions/orientations as the original packing.
- You will need to take the attachment point/clevis, ... off the end of the rod to replace the seals in the retaining cap.  If the rod end has paint on it, you will need to remove the paint first.  There is a very tight tolerance.

Take your time & you should be fine.